Has The Time Finally Arrived To Remove All Unions

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,

I usually stay out of your posts, but just tell me this...

What part do the members play in this entire ratification of 3 contracts?

Nothing?

If the membership is not united enough to fight this management in what will permeate to the rest of the entire industry, what makes you think that they are unified enough to even decertify? And take another union, no less?

Really, what page of this book are you reading from?



Pitbull,
Most things in life rise and fall on leadership. It's true with your company and it's true with the IAM. The masses are almost always a witness to the leadership of a particular institution.
Thus the IAM has piss clam leadership and its members have piss clam unity since the leadership is not legitimated in the workplace whatsoever and hasn't cultured solidarity over the past 10years.

Having elections to change leadership is difficult under restricted democratic means. But still, no matter who gets in, they are still governed under a jurasiclike constitution from the early labor movement and controlled by the INTL.

At any rate, the above point is moot and perhaps worthy of discussion at another time since it wouldn't matter if the leadership was changed or if you had the world's biggest toughest Labor organization replacing the IAM at this point since the FSA contract is a complete mess, full blown if you will. When the company starts making millions and moves forward, the IAM members will not be able to move forward since they keep a chapter 7 contract that is stuck in chapter 7 throughout. It simply isn't worth paying $4,000 for a chapter 7 contract when the context of the situation has changed.

In 2 years, the IAM FSA members will find out that they are the contracted help, and you don't have to pay dues if you are the 'cheap labor'.

With respect, perhaps the flight attendant contract is a different story

regards,

 

[Bob Owens]

700UW,Jan 24 2005, 03:12 PM]
Can you not understand that was a final offer not a tentative agreement?

Blame your coworkers for voting in, not the IAM.

I knew you were going to say that. It sure did not take long did it. Already blaming the members for surrendering when the IAM showed absolutely no leadership.


And what would you have if you were an employee at will?

Do you mean like 87% of the rest of the workers in this country?

In 1989 US had a 36 hour a week for full time, that was removed and you had to be a 40 hour a week scheduled to be considered full time.

What do you have now? You didnt answer the question on how thw wages compare after inflation is put in.


How was it fair that a forced downgrade to part time, max 25 hours a week had to pay over $300 a month for family insurance?

And the IAM got the company in 1999 to make the forced part time insurance the same cheaper rate as a full timer.

Well over at AA many of the part timers are self employed on the outside who work a minimum number of hours just to get benifits. They CS their time away-so it cuts down on OT, saving the company money. It ends up increasing medical costs which are passed down to the full timers. Having part timers increases costs on all the full timers because the covered group for the same amount of hours worked increases in size.

1992, no sick time, PDOs.

Ok, but what was the top wage? How does it compare to today after being adjusted by inflation? If you were making a higher adjusted top wage then but you did not have sick time maybe the higher wage made up for it. My friend in the elevator union earns over $40/hr but he has no sick time, but at that wage he can afford to be sick because he makes enough money to put some of it away.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Can you not understand that was a final offer not a tentative agreement?

Blame your coworkers for voting in, not the IAM.

And what would you have if you were an employee at will?

In 1989 US had a 36 hour a week for full time, that was removed and you had to be a 40 hour a week scheduled to be considered full time.

How was it fair that a forced downgrade to part time, max 25 hours a week had to pay over $300 a month for family insurance?

And the IAM got the company in 1999 to make the forced part time insurance the same cheaper rate as a full timer.

1992, no sick time, PDOs.
Gee Tim, your memory failing you?

[post="241892"][/post]​

700, my understanding is that the contract is not a tentative agreement anymore but rather a binding IAM contract that Randy Canale accepted and agreed to. In fact, my understanding is that at no point did Randy Canale come out against the contract.

700, implicit in this dialogue is a not so subtle fact that reeks of piss clam representation. Specifically, the fact that we are comparing comparable wage and benefit levels of non union workers 15 years ago, with IAM members today exhibits that something is terribly wrong.

I must go and eat breakfast now. Perhaps two eggs over with rye toast is in order.

regards,

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,

I never claimed the IAM had CBA rights if they are decertified, don't know why you are trying to put words in my posts that are not there.

Ok maybe you didnt, excuse me.

And no one is locked in till 2012, once again you as an AA employee have no idea about the amendable dates.

Well I was going by what one of your coworkers posted.

And what will AMFA get for you? nothing, they inherit the current CBA and have to abide by its terms until they renegotiate when the Section 6 becomes available.


It will give us the opportunity to get into a union that actually feels that we should get more and not one where unaccountable leaders look at their broad membership and decide that compared to their workers in other industries that airline workers should be willing to give up a little more in order to preserve the financial interests of the leaders of the union. Going to AMFA would give us the chance to join an organization made up of, for and by, workers in this industry. It would greatly increase our chances for success by being in an organization that has a clear and focused goal and it is a strategy that has been proven to work by Pilots, Carpenters, Construction workers and scores of other unions. The IAM/TWU and IBT claim to be Industrial unions, but they in fact are Business Unions. Their only concern is dues revenue.

The fact is that with the fractured AFL-CIO setup where the IAM can not publically criticize or compete for members with company friendly unions like the TWU, who I admit have been industry leaders with concessions for at least twenty years, airline workers have no hope if they stay within these organizations.

The IAM had a militant reputation, however the fact that they lost 25% of their membership over the last four years while AFL-CIO counterpart TWU has in fact grown -through concessionary bargaining, is forcing the IAM to accept a similar strategy. They cant beat the TWU because they cant fight them because of AFL-CIO regulations, however there is nothing in the AFL-CIO Constitution, or at least nothing that they are likely to enforce, that prohibits unions from competing with each other by giving companies a competative edge by selling out their members.

The IAMs total lack of leadership,then blaming the members for accepting the terms of the company, taken right out of the TWU playbook, is a betrayal of unionism. Unionism has always stood on the principle that without a CBA the alternative is STRIKE!!! A "Final offer" by the company, especially with massive concessions for terms lasting till far into the future should under ANY circumstances be rejected, the IAM only said "they dont endorse this deal" but they offered no alternatives.

If conditions warrant concessions and they do not present an unbearable burden on those working they should be of extremely short duration. To lay back, and say the alternatives are worse after all the effort that unions have put in place to construct a safety net(unemployment, welfare, food stamps etc) is playing right into the hands of the company, The fact is that the IAM has failed the membership, the membership did not fail the IAM. The IAM should be fired.

What has become clear is that the IAM wanted to come out of this with their dues base intact and the ability to shirk responsiblity for the agreement. You are already blaming the members, but what was the IAMs plan if the members had rejected it?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,

Your idea of decertifying and then bringing in a new union, AFTER THE FACT, will do what for the members? Negotiate a new contract in 2012?

Once you decertify, keep in mind the unions IAM own the contract rights. You do know this right? So what? Are you telling the membership to go without a contract for 7 years, or are you planning to take your newly formed union members to demand new negotiations? What would motivate managment? A strike? I thought that position was already a factor...didn't the membership vote this proposal in?

[post="241848"][/post]​

Pitbull, actually my idea is so common that I can't really take credit for it being 'my idea'. Thousands of workers fire their collective bargaining agent all the time and go non-union, just not in the airline industry. If the labor laws were the same in this industry then my feeling is that unions would lose at least half of their members through decerts. Unfortunately, the RLA, along with art.20 [aflcio] breeds piss clam representation that 'takes the membership for granted'. A forced marriage if you will, and no way out. I think we just found a path that we borrowed from all other industries.

Again, I am just thinking that now is the time to carry over the ideas and actions of thousands of other workers from other industries into this industry. Implicit in this, is no doubt, that I believe once your company exits chapter 11 that the FSA IAM contract is just not worth $4,000 per worker over the next 8 years. If the majority decide this to be true then you can bank on a decert, if not then the IAM will stay.

Also, your view on members might be from where you are perched. To be sure, my view might be from where I am perched also. Generally, the higher up one is in the union or more involved a person is, the finger is almost always pointed at the members. Likewise, the rank and file blames the leadership. But in any case, solidarity or lack thereof is based on the leadership. In any case, this isn't a matter of whose fault it is. This is a case where the IAM contract is such a mess that it just won't be worth over $500 a year to keep.

regards,

 

[jetmechline]

At least you can deduct union dues from your taxes....

[post="241893"][/post]​

True! This year you can take the deduction under “Charitable Contributionsâ€￾.

 

[ITRADE]

Hey, Ive got TaxCut already purchased. Will have to look it up.

 

[diogenes]

Anybody walking around unsupervised by adults knows that sometimes, there is no easy or good answer.

Work at U without representation? I'd rather scratch a phone booth full of wildcats in the a$$ with a handful of cockleburrs!

And, the unions haven't covered themselves with glory the past few years, either.

The IAM is a mixed bag. Buffenbarger is a good and decent man. The training center, Placid Harbor, is superlative - the quarters are Spartan; the trainers and training without peer.

OTOH, the districts place greater value on fealty than talent. If you dissent from the party line, you are shut down and shut out. To hold ANY district office, you first must have demonstrated over time unquestioning loyalty to the commisars.

How do they get their guys in? After all, they are all elected. First, a guy retires mid-term. A new 'made' man is appointed to fill the rest of the term. He then runs on the district sponsored slate the next election.

The district makes sure only 'made' men get enough profile around the district. If you are unreliable, you will either not get tapped for conferences and training, or if you force or finesse your way in, you will be shunted to the side. The district can send a message, too. At one conference, a seat at EVERY table at the conference dinner was 'taken', so one guy had to sit out in the lobby with his plate in his lap.

Now the dissent I'm speaking of is not being, say, an AMFA supporter. Or, voting Republican. If you question, privately, how a decision was arrived at, or opine that perhaps consulting the membership would be in order, THAT is dissent.

Having said that, I don't see another union being the answer, either. As has been mentioned on this site, all unions have capitulated at one airline or the other.

Perhaps a third way?

I guarantee if enough folks cancel automatic dues withholding (it's voluntary) and start paying monthly or quarterly (making the local a collection agency, and intercoursing with the cash flow), the IAM would pay attention.

All the membership wants is accountability and transparency.

 

[FLYUSAIRWAYS]

Lots of great responses. Looks like the poll shows about 70% against the union, and 30% still think we need one. The Plot thickens. Stay tuned.

 

[Winglet]

Since the unions can't protect your job, nor your compensation, WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING A UNION??

 

[Tim Nelson]

Since the unions can't protect your job, nor your compensation, WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING A UNION??

[post="244662"][/post]​

We are doing a complete breakdown on what we know. Comparing 1992 with 2009. As you already know, 1992 employee wages and benefits was 20% greater than what the IAM has done for FSA. But specific breakdowns will be posted on the AGW site when it is complete. Amazingly a FSA in 1992 was making more money than FSA IAM members in 2013....some 21 years later.

It will reasonably determine that paying $4,000 to keep this contract over the next X years is not worth it. In fact, it will be finally convincing that non-union FSA were much better off without the IAM over 13 years ago than they will be in 2013. One example is pay. 1994 pay was 17.88 but dues paying pay in 2009 will only be 17.92.....some 15 years later. It is much worse for all the class 2 and class 3 cities.

The IAM should be thrown out on their dead butt and the AGW will plan a rigorous campaign once the company makes a profit.


regards,

Tim Nelson, Interim Director, AGW

 

[700UW]

The company does not believe it will make a profit for several years.

And lets see YOUR track record.

Back in early 1990 you started your own union and filed short of cards and caused another one year ban and let the company have their way with your group.

Then in early 2000s you started FSW and failed, then you start the AGW and fail again.

Great failure record you have there Tim.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

We are doing a complete breakdown on what we know.
Tim Nelson, Interim Director, AGW

[post="244903"][/post]​

I hate to say this but this reaks of a campaign and campaign promises

 

[700UW]

The IAM should be thrown out on their dead butt and the AGW will plan a rigorous campaign once the company makes a profit.
regards,
Tim Nelson, Interim Director, AGW

[post="244903"][/post]​

I thought you did not want the Fleet Service to vote AGW, you just wanted the IAM decertified.

Funny, guess you have a credibility issue.

And how many members voted you interim director?

 

[Tim Nelson]

I thought you did not want the Fleet Service to vote AGW, you just wanted the IAM decertified.

Funny, guess you have a credibility issue.

And how many members voted you interim director?

[post="245028"][/post]​

700, your either read wrong or didn't understand. Let me spell it out for you. When I say the IAM should be thrown out AND the AGW will plan a rigorous campaign, please do not assume this means that the AGW wants to represent the FSA at US AIRWAYS under this contract. Quite the contrary. That means that the AGW campaign will be one which gets workers to sign our cards....get an election...and ask workers to NOT vote for the AGW or the IAM.

The AGW constitution prohibits the AGW from taking 'money for nothing' so it simply isn't possible for the AGW to want to take dues. A decert is in order. Ironically, in this situation employees must actually get rid of a union as opposed to replacing a union. 1994 reversed. Tentatively this should happen within 6 months of US AIRWAYS profitability.

BTW, you are wrong about the PDO's of the 90's. We obtained the complete PPG by CD from a concerned person so we have the facts. PDO's in the 1990's had a top benefit of 35 days, i.e., 6 weeks vacation and 5 sick days ref.2-5,page1.
And FSA thought those were the bad days so they voted in the MIA. Unfortunately they have only received 'piss clam' representation. In the year 2013, these IAM members may be paying $500 a year for the opportunity to have probationary employee/entry level vacation accrual no matter if they have 1 year or 18 years.. 2 weeks!!!

regards,