Graduated concession table

[blockquote]
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On 10/13/2002 9:25:53 PM avek00 wrote:

That is certainly NOT what I stated. I am saying that AFA and IAM could get away with only giving workrule relief, which will provide major cost reductions for United. It's UA ALPA that has to be preoccupied with wage AND workrule concessions.


Wrong!, I'll quote you: The other workgroups realize that it is UA ALPA and UA ALPA alone that would likely face a contract abrogation during the BK process; therefore, IAM and the AFA are acting accordingly.


The judge doesn't say change this rule and that one He excepts or throws out the contract, PERIOD. Again, it's LUDICROUS to think a judge would allow the IAM to maintain the HIGHEST wage rates in the industry. I think it is fair to say, the judge would look at where other airlines that ARE profitable cut the fat. I'll bet big money that the ration of pilots to Mechanics at SWA and Jetblu is MUCH higher. Airlines contract out MX not pilots. I personally like having most of our MX done by the best mechanics in the business (UALs), and I want them to be the highest paid in the industry after this is over, but to think the number of mechanics wouldn't be cut in half during a BK is wishful thinking.
 
There's no question that the mechanic headcount needs to be cut by about 30-45%. However, the IAM can accomplish most of that through workrule relief concessions.
 
[blockquote]
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On 10/13/2002 11:34:13 PM avek00 wrote:

I would never advocate a flat rate for pilots. Of course a 744 Captain should make more than a 737 Captain; the 747 Captain brings in far more revenue than the 737 Captain, and should be compensated accordingly.

What my previous post accomplished was an illustration of the flaw in the argument that UA's pilot costs are not out of line. While the block hour pay rates for a UA 777 Captain might be slightly less than those of a DL 777 Captain, United flies MANY more 777s (both in real numbers and as a percentage of the fleet) than Delta. Hence, UA's overall costs for its pilot group are significantly HIGHER than Delta's, even though block hour rates alone suggest that the UA pilot group should cost less overall.
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[/blockquote]

If a 747 pilot SHOULD get paid more than a guppy pilot, then why do you think it's wrong for the average pilot at UAL to be compensated better by virtue of flying, on average, bigger MORE PRODUCTIVE jets? UAL pilot schedules are built for more hours a month than AMR, DAL, and NWA, so the company even more savings by not having to fund benefits (medical, dental, travel, ect) for additional pilots.
 
[blockquote]
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On 10/13/2002 9:16:50 PM avek00 wrote:

4. AFAIK, the government is not seeking equity or equity options from United. UAL has offered some of its aircraft and other assets in support of its application; if the application is ultimately approved, I am confident that said offering will be sufficient.
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[/blockquote]

I'd think since you worked for the Money Grubber in Chief, Corzine, you'd be familiar with the provisions of the bill (since it was HIS idea to turn the government into a loan shark). But here is the text.

d) FINANCIAL PROTECTION OF GOVERNMENT-
(1) IN GENERAL- To the extent feasible and practicable, the Board shall ensure that the Government is compensated for the risk assumed in making guarantees under this title.
(2) GOVERNMENT PARTICIPATION IN GAINS- To the extent to which any participating corporation accepts financial assistance, in the form of accepting the proceeds of any loans guaranteed by the Government under this title, the Board is authorized to enter into contracts under which the Government, contingent on the financial success of the participating corporation, would participate in the gains of the participating corporation or its security holders through the use of such instruments as warrants, stock options, common or preferred stock, or other appropriate equity instruments.
(3) DEPOSIT IN TREASURY- All amounts collected by the Secretary of the Treasury under this subsection shall be deposited in the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts


Thus far the ATSB has demanded about 1/3rd of AWA, 1/3rd of U and prob 1/3rd of ATA. what makes you think they won't demand the same of UAL?
 
[blockquote]
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On 10/14/2002 12:00:34 AM avek00 wrote:

[Because as things stand now, the company will self-destruct within a few months.

I have already made it clear as to why UA's pilot costs are substantially higer than the competition's, even with lower payscales. You have also illustrated that UA pilots are flying LESS productive birds than the competition, due to the configurations. Therefore, it stands to reason that UA's pilots have to take a haircut in the pay and productivity department.
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[/blockquote]

You're talking in circles. You make the outlandish statement that UALs pilots make too much and would get hammered in BK. The truth is UALs highest paid pilots (747-400, 777) MAKE LESS PER ASM than a SWA 737 pilot DESPITE the inefficient seat map. Figuring CASM is misleading to begin with. A UAL United First Suite seat is worth more per mile than a coach seat, just as a Mercedes is worth more than a Yugo. If the market for the Mercedes seat is suddenly much smaller, then thats not the fault of the pilot, thats a management issue. that's why wage rates are based on MTOG not whatever the latest Dutta scheme is.
 
[blockquote]
d) FINANCIAL PROTECTION OF GOVERNMENT-
(1) IN GENERAL- To the extent feasible and practicable, the Board shall ensure that the Government is compensated for the risk assumed in making guarantees under this title.
(2) GOVERNMENT PARTICIPATION IN GAINS- To the extent to which any participating corporation accepts financial assistance, in the form of accepting the proceeds of any loans guaranteed by the Government under this title, the Board is authorized to enter into contracts under which the Government, contingent on the financial success of the participating corporation, would participate in the gains of the participating corporation or its security holders through the use of such instruments as warrants, stock options, common or preferred stock, or other appropriate equity instruments.
(3) DEPOSIT IN TREASURY- All amounts collected by the Secretary of the Treasury under this subsection shall be deposited in the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts


Thus far the ATSB has demanded about 1/3rd of AWA, 1/3rd of U and prob 1/3rd of ATA. what makes you think they won't "demand" the same of UAL?
[/blockquote]


For one, UAL is offering REAL assets, which have actual value. Second, as the text above points out, the Board has the OPTION of insisting upon equity offerings as part of a guarantee. And of course, it is worth noting that the ATSB has never exercised any of the warrants that it has received.
 
[blockquote]
If a 747 pilot SHOULD get paid more than a guppy pilot, then why do you think it's wrong for the average pilot at UAL to be compensated better by virtue of flying, on average, bigger MORE PRODUCTIVE jets? [/blockquote]

Because as things stand now, the company will self-destruct within a few months.

I have already made it clear as to why UA's pilot costs are substantially higer than the competition's, even with lower payscales. You have also illustrated that UA pilots are flying LESS productive birds than the competition, due to the configurations. Therefore, it stands to reason that UA's pilots have to take a haircut in the pay and productivity department.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #23
avek00, Busdrvr,
You guys seem to have a debate going on every thread.
Finding fault and pointing fingers will not accomplish the task.
What we need is ideas on how to get the job done in the fairest way possibble.

The old ways of doing business are not working, and we must restructure out of bankruptcy to get us going in the right direction.

The hardest thing for everyone is realizing we can save money in our own work group. Of course this hurts our self interest, but it will be through self sacrifice, that Ual will survive.

Let's not be so defensive. Maybe give examples of how other work groups can save money and they will do the same for yours.

Change is the hardest thing for most of us to accept, but this is what it will take to get the job done.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.
If we lock in prices of what a 737 pilot makes and what a 777 pilot makes
we need to have a certain load factor and revenue factor for the wages to be justified.
A full load of passengers does not automatically justify the wages, if the fares are not enough to sustain a profit.

If a 737 and a 777 both go out with 50 pasengers on board, whose wages are more likely to be justified?

That is why tying wages to revenue will work better than guessing what business will be during a contract.

Many companies pay a constant salary, called a draw, against what the person might earn. At the end of the year or sometime during the year they settle up to the real wages.

Maybe all pilots should be paid from the draw of the smallest plane, with the potential of earning a great deal more, if they are flying a plane with more seats on it.

More of the old piece work concept.
Do you think Ual would be in as bad a financial position as they are if we had this concept in place?
 
Ok, this thread is starting to become a bit problematic, so I feel it's time for a warning. While not mentioning names, personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated! If you disagree with someone's viewpoint, that is fine. But do it in a respectful way that defend's your position without insulting others.
 
[blockquote]
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On 10/14/2002 9:02:45 AM atabuy wrote:

avek00, Busdrvr,
You guys seem to have a debate going on every thread.
Finding fault and pointing fingers will not accomplish the task.
What we need is ideas on how to get the job done in the fairest way possibble.

The old ways of doing business are not working, and we must restructure out of bankruptcy to get us going in the right direction.

The hardest thing for everyone is realizing we can save money in our own work group. Of course this hurts our self interest, but it will be through self sacrifice, that Ual will survive.

Let's not be so defensive. Maybe give examples of how other work groups can save money and they will do the same for yours.

Change is the hardest thing for most of us to accept, but this is what it will take to get the job done.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.
If we lock in prices of what a 737 pilot makes and what a 777 pilot makes
we need to have a certain load factor and revenue factor for the wages to be justified.
A full load of passengers does not automatically justify the wages, if the fares are not enough to sustain a profit.

If a 737 and a 777 both go out with 50 pasengers on board, whose wages are more likely to be justified?

That is why tying wages to revenue will work better than guessing what business will be during a contract.

Many companies pay a constant salary, called a draw, against what the person might earn. At the end of the year or sometime during the year they settle up to the real wages.

Maybe all pilots should be paid from the draw of the smallest plane, with the potential of earning a great deal more, if they are flying a plane with more seats on it.

More of the old piece work concept.
Do you think Ual would be in as bad a financial position as they are if we had this concept in place?
----------------
[/blockquote]

I agree that the best solution for UAL's labor costs is a wage system tied to company performance. However, certain of the company's workgroups simply aren't ready to make that change, for various reasons.

Until a change in mentality occurs, each workgroup has little choice but to place themselves in the best possible position for a judicially-supervised restructuring.
 
I would like to make three points:

1. The labor vs labor fight is very similar to what happened at US just prior to bankruptcy.

2. There is reason to believe AVEK00's comments about union relationships and objectives in this thread is accurate.

3. A bankruptcy filing could occur on October 20 or 27, if history is used as a benchmark.

Chip
 
[blockquote]
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On 10/20/2002 10:05:40 PM hommegros wrote:


Dear avek00,
[/P]


I work for United Airlines.[/P]


You?

:) Hommegros[/P]
----------------
[/blockquote]

I don't know about now, but Avek was reportedly an intern for the Honorable John Corzine (D, NJ), one of those labor friendly limosine liberals (he's got more money that at least half the senate combined, most IMHO made on the backs of your 401Ks during the Roaring 90's stock market ponzi scheme). Being from NJ, I'd expect him to have a pro CAL bias. It's just sad to see some proud union members continue to be the lap dogs of the left when I think Avek exemplifies the attitudes of the new enlightened limosine left. The dems are NOT the party of labor, they are the party of left wing social ideals (quota's, abortion, non-traditional lifestyles) and federal government nannyism.
 
[blockquote]
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On 10/21/2002 9:46:32 AM Bear96 wrote:

And just to head off the next lob which will be directed towards me... Yes I know you are responsible for thousands of lives, and fly endless routes over desolate stretches of the world, and every landing (seemingly, if you listen to many pilots long enough) is on a short, ice covered runway with a 50kt crosswind with 0 visibility in a blizzard with heavy blowing snow... While we F/As barely deserve the meager salaries we get because we just sit in the back reading Vogue and goofing off (oh and occassionally have to deal with the knife-wielding nut case trying to break into your Ft.Knox-like protected cockpit).
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[/blockquote]

Bear,
My political views are contrary to ALPAs. When did you stop a knife wielding nut?
 
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