Furloughees Standby for Letter From Capt. Hogg

[nostradamus]

That's my point. One reason (among many) our pay and work rules have gone to hell is because flying is such a big deal to so many folks. And they CHOOSE not to do other things. So be it. I make more money outside of flying simply because I was and continue to be willing to work my butt off. That's also why I was able to vote no, actually hell no, for all the givebacks and such.


But you don't have to come back to LCC. I'm tellin you nothing here has changed. The management is still incompentent. The pilots (ALPA) are still screwing each other and the juniority is taking the brunt of the crap.

But not everyone has the same work ethic or self confidence as others. And some just think flying is the cats meow.

pilot

Why do you stay in aviation, when you make so much money outside of it?

 

[Swaayze]

Options:

SWA
ALA
Fedex
UPS
JB
Cont

All hiring!!

Thanks. Don't have 1000 turbine PIC so that disqualifies me for most of those officially, and realistically for the others. At least CAL, JB, and Airtran haven't called yet. Anyway, I don't see them as that much better than LCC to be honest with you.

 

[nostradamus]

pilot,

The top of your post you say you are with LCC, the bottom comment you have says you are not.


"Two careers. One at LCC with a sen # north of 100. That's why I don't quit."

Not an employee of LCC. Just acting like one.

 

[pilot]

Why do you stay in aviation, when you make so much money outside of it?

Because my seniority number allows me to fly a schedule that fits around the business, in a heavy jet, on European routes, and all the other benefits of having seniority. If flying interfered, in the least, with what I had to do in my other endeavors I'd leave in a New York minute.

If you don't have seniority at LCC you have a pathetic job. You are at the beck and call of an incompetent management who can't even staff an airline correctly much less run one.

If you could come back with super seniority I could understand coming back. But to sit junior reserve in the right seat at pathetic wages in a wannabe jet somehow doesn't seem all that big a deal to me.

Come back if you want but it ain't gonna be pretty. At least wait and see what the seniority integration looks like.

pilot

pilot,

The top of your post you say you are with LCC, the bottom comment you have says you are not.
"Two careers. One at LCC with a sen # north of 100. That's why I don't quit."

Not an employee of LCC. Just acting like one.

It's called a disclaimer. You figure it out.

pilot

 

[john john]

Other career self made business (real estate stuff) started when BNF went belly up in 1982.

Pilot

So US/PI had to hire you because of deregulation. I think this was a good thing need more legislation like it. The company offer a early out to get ride of the OLD BN guys a wile back

 

[pilot]

Thanks. Don't have 1000 turbine PIC so that disqualifies me for most of those officially, and realistically for the others. At least CAL, JB, and Airtran haven't called yet. Anyway, I don't see them as that much better than LCC to be honest with you.

Then you don't have a clue about this industry.

UPS, FedEx, and Southwest are so far above LCC it's not even funny.

pilot

 

[Swaayze]

Two careers. One at LCC with a sen # north of 100. That's why I don't quit.

Other career self made business (real estate stuff) started when BNF went belly up in 1982.

I'm telin ya to look outside aviation. With the intelligence and smarts it takes to fly the jets there are plenty of opportunities out there if you are willing to suck it up for a few years. Examples:

Auto sales: Start selling then eventually managing the dealership.

Franchises: Find the money (it's not impossible) and build the business into multi unit conglomerate.

Entreprenuership: Sevice businesses are all the rage. No on wants to do anything themselves anymore. Window cleaning, landscaping, you name it. Start the businesss, hire kids to do the work, built the clientele, hook up with builders, apartments, etc..... Get to work.

What I hear from most pilots is this: "Flying is all I know how to do." What they are truly saying is "Flying is all I want to do and I'll do it for less than I can make doing something outside of flying. See above examples.

Bottom line: If you love flying and don't want to work doing something else then by all means come back to LCC. But be advised you are going to be in for another screwing at the hands of your fellow pilots and company.

Pilot

Fair enough. I certainly understand your attitude given the breaks you've had in your career. BTW you're not JB in the DFW area who did sim training in '99 are you?

I agree with your post, so don't misunderstand me here, I'm just trying to answer your question and give you some insight into what some of us are thinking in considering recall.

I like flying for a living. For some reason I cannot seem to break from it. So if I can have a decent flying job that's what I prefer to do. Your quote about doing it for less than I'd otherwise make is probably accurate in my case. Although I certainly think airline pilots are underpaid/overworked nowadays, LCC still offers a decent living in comparison to many flying (and non-flying for that matter) positions.

I'd love to have a business as well, but as of yet I have not gotten off my butt and figured out the what and how of it (nobody's fault but my own). Going solely self-employed would be tough right now, as my family needs group health insurance and my wife has been staying home with the kids (that could change soon now that they started school - 6 yo twins just now in KG). Additionally I'm just not a salesman (or all that great at networking for that matter), so I'm concerned that would be a negative.

Good discussion, thanks.


FWIW

Then you don't have a clue about this industry.

UPS, FedEx, and Southwest are so far above LCC it's not even funny.

pilot

No offense, but you're the one without the clue. All those require at least 1000 turbine PIC to apply. I was referring to JB, Airtran, and even to a lesser extent CAL.

 

[pilot]

Fair enough. I certainly understand your attitude given the breaks you've had in your career. BTW you're not JB in the DFW area who did sim training in '99 are you?

I agree with your post, so don't misunderstand me here, I'm just trying to answer your question and give you some insight into what some of us are thinking in considering recall.

I like flying for a living. For some reason I cannot seem to break from it. So if I can have a decent flying job that's what I prefer to do. Your quote about doing it for less than I'd otherwise make is probably accurate in my case. Although I certainly think airline pilots are underpaid/overworked nowadays, LCC still offers a decent living in comparison to many flying (and non-flying for that matter) positions.

I'd love to have a business as well, but as of yet I have not gotten off my butt and figured out the what and how of it (nobody's fault but my own). Going solely self-employed would be tough right now, as my family needs group health insurance and my wife has been staying home with the kids (that could change soon now that they started school - 6 yo twins just now in KG). Additionally I'm just not a salesman (or all that great at networking for that matter), so I'm concerned that would be a negative.

Good discussion, thanks.
FWIW
No offense, but you're the one without the clue. All those require at least 1000 turbine PIC to apply. I was referring to JB, Airtran, and even to a lesser extent CAL.

No offense taken. My point on the three mentioned is that their pay, working conditions, retirement, reserve system and above all their management make them extremely desirable places to work.

I have no idea about requirements, you're right on that one.

pilot

 

[chevyman]

There are plenty of "jobs" out there man. You come back here and you are setting yourself up for more heartache and crap.

And when I say "jobs" I'm not talking about flying airplanes. Do yourself a huge favor and put this piece of crap company and union out of your mind. Move on to either a different flying job or something outside of flying.

LCC ain't worth it pal.

pilot

You have been on the gravy train for years and years at USAir. You have no idea how hard it is out here when you hit 50,furloughed twice at USAir for a total of 12 years on furlough and only 6 active years on the property, and trying to support wife and kids. No one wants you and that includes all the carriers that are hiring now, I interviewed with SWA and UPS.The only jobs you can get in the civilian sector are selling jobs,commission bull crap,try to live on that, I have looked everywhere. The only reason you have such a great supposed business is because it was bank rolled by the sacrifices of the furloughed. People like you have thrown folks under the bus for years at USAir to keep the gravy train going.You have not walked a mile in my shoes and you never will. Do not tell me how to run my life,you have no right.

I do not want to come back but I am unemployed and have no choice. I have heard this from all pilots, especially the senior ones, why come back? But the fact of the matter is it is hard as hell in the real world and you senior types can speculate all you want about how easy it is to find other jobs. In other words you only talk the talk, I have walked the walk for a very long time. Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Furloughedagain]

Swaayze,

Pilot's attitude is very similar to many other high seniority Captains that I had the opportunity to fly with at AAA.

I remember shortly after 09/11 as the furloughs started being announced I asked one such Captain, "What would you do if this went away tomorrow?"

His answer: "I guess I would just go to Southwest".

Oh. :blink: You would just go. There's a class starting Monday, just show up.

What a lot of these senior folks don't seem to understand is that life just isn't that easy. They apparently don't realize that after 09/11 over 7000 airline pilots were furloughed.

So they can't comprehend the fact that the few hundred jobs available at places like Southwest, Jetblue, AirTran, UPS, FedEx, etc -- were not the kind of jobs you could just walk into. In fact, for most of us, even getting an interview was an exercise in futility.

What Pilot (and those like him) are incapable of seeing from the front-end of an A330 is that for every furloughed US Airways pilot who was hired by Jetblue, there were 50 more who went to places like Colgan, Great Plains, Shuttle America, AirNow, etc.

He wouldn't be able to understand why we all flew to Syracuse and sat in a conference room at SYR with over 200 furloughed pilots praying that "Legacy Airlines" would actually get off the ground (after all, Padre said we'd all be 737 Captains by now).

Nope. These guys just don't get it. They can't figure out why, if the best job you can get is at Comair or American Eagle, why you don't just give up on aviation and start a business.

But where were they when they were in their mid-30s? Were their families financially secure enough to invest time and money in a business? To embark on a new career? To go back to school? Or did it take them years and years of that high-paying airline pilot gig to put them in a position where they had the MONEY and the SCHEDULE which allowed them to pursue those other interests?

Sorry Swaayze. He's just not going to understand because he truly believe that if this all went away tomorrow... he could just "go" to Southwest.

It's just not that easy folks. For pilots like Swaayze who, 5 years after their furlough, are sitting in the right seat of an RJ at some POS commuter and wondering how they're going to pay for the kid's college and fund their retirement -- maybe coming back to AAA doesn't look half bad.

-FurloughedAgain

PS - Sorry if this seems a little bitter, but I just don't believe that those currently flying for US Airways have any idea what it has been like to seek pilot employment since 09/11.

 

[fatburger]

This industry is cyclical and pilot you know this more than anyone else given your seniority. I'd be curious to see everyone's attitude 5-8 years from now.

fatburger

 

[luvn737s]

If you don't have seniority at LCC you have a pathetic job.
pilot

Actually, if you have seniority at LCC, you have a pathetic job that lost 80% of it's value in 3 years, without so much as a rumor of a strike. If these guys still stick around, deep down they never thought they were worth the big bucks in the first place. Sticking around is a questionable business decision at best. They lose the opportunity to put valuable time into a more lucrative living.

It's the guy clinging to driftwood that's criticizing the drowning man, nothing more.

 

[luvn737s]

Hmmm. Old mr. pilot says he came from BNF. That would put him about a 1983 hire date. Furloughs go to 1988. He says he's less than 100 from the top. I know many 1985 hirees that are only able to hold right seat.

Sounds like pilot's an F/O to me. How many F/O's are less than 100 from the top? This is strictly informational and in no way is meant to impune anyone integrity or lack thereof.

 

[john john]

Hmmm. Old mr. pilot says he came from BNF. That would put him about a 1983 hire date. Furloughs go to 1988. He says he's less than 100 from the top. I know many 1985 hirees that are only able to hold right seat.

Sounds like pilot's an F/O to me. How many F/O's are less than 100 from the top? This is strictly informational and in no way is meant to impune anyone integrity or lack thereof.

I was thinking the same thing

 

[nostradamus]

Pilot quote

"Because my seniority number allows me to fly a schedule that fits around the business, in a heavy jet, on European routes, and all the other benefits of having seniority. If flying interfered, in the least, with what I had to do in my other endeavors I'd leave in a New York minute."

My question

Is it possible that someone who enters aviation as a pilot will eventually get to your seniority and that is what they are aspiring to?

"Because my seniority number allows me to fly a schedule that fits around the business, in a heavy jet, on European routes, and all the other benefits of having seniority. If flying interfered, in the least, with what I had to do in my other endeavors I'd leave in a New York minute."

My question

What is your position on raising the retirement age, which the previous age 60 rule helped you out greatly?