From Now On, Passengers Can't Complain

[mweiss]

Yea its too bad that all those people were inconveinced during the holidays, but have you, or any of them, given a second thought to all the thousands of airline employees who have lost their jobs? I guess that their Holidays were not that great either, but do you care?

[post="236167"][/post]​

Couple of things to consider:

First of all, yes, many do give second thoughts to those who have lost their jobs.

Secondly, and more importantly, you appear to have forgotten the relationship. You are the employee. Your job is to show up, and do what you have contractually agreed with your employer to do. The passengers are the customers. Their contribution to the relationship is to enter into a contractual relationship with your employer, who has entered into a contractual relationship with you.

You agreed to the terms of that contract, through a vote of the union membership.

Thus, if you don't show up because you are irritated by the contract that you have agreed to follow, your customers have every right to be angry at you. It is not part of your contract to determine what is an acceptable amount for the customer to pay. You negotiate with your employer, and the customer negotiates with your employer. Provided your employer is satisfied with both of those negotiations, that line of discussion is finished.

Let's be perfectly clear here. Are you suggesting that the customer should be sympathetic to someone who enters into a contract to perform a service for the customer, but then reneges on the contract because he doesn't want to spend the holiday away from his family? Was it a surprise to them that the airlines are open for business during that time???

Or is it your allegation that these people were staying home in solidarity for those who got laid off?

 

[Bear96]

mweiss,

Your argument would be a little more persuasive to the U employees here if they had truly "agreed" to work under the current contracts without a gun pointed at their heads as they were "agreeing" to them.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

the whole 'gun to head' metaphor is full of it. There was no gun to the head. What options do you have? To work in a crappy industry or not? No gun. Not even a metaphorical gun. I propose a moratorium on metaphors involving guns, drugs and/or a certain coerced sex act.

 

[mweiss]

There was no gun pointed to their heads, literal or proverbial. There was no slavery, as has also been suggested. Everyone had the choice to accept the contracts or not. If they chose not to, they all could look for other jobs.

It's just like the customers...they can either enter into contracts with the airline (i.e., buy tickets) or not. No deaths involved in saying no.

 

[goodstew]

mweiss,

Your argument would be a little more persuasive to the U employees here if they had truly "agreed" to work under the current contracts without a gun pointed at their heads as they were "agreeing" to them.

[post="236300"][/post]​

You are so right Bear! Whole portions of the agreements I 'agreed' to (even though I voted no) were never put in place by the company. This resulted in tremendous hardship for flight attendants. The company has been picking and choosing the parts of the last 2 'agreements' that are good for them and disregarding the rest. I don't expect Give back # 3 will be any different. Don't complain to me on the jumpseat when you are burned a third time. Don't want to hear it.

 

[mweiss]

Even if you voted no on the contract, you still agreed to it. Why? Because you chose to have collective bargaining, which means that you agreed to abide by contracts ratified by the majority of your voting union members.

If the company doesn't abide by its end of the contract, then you can file suit for breach of contract (again, you agreed that your union representatives would do this for you). Randomly choosing not to show up for work is not one of the legitimately available options.

 

[Trin03]

Well I guess from the obnoxious responses posted here; you folks would recommend that I (US CP) should book my travel on other carriers?

You know Bob Owens and others… I’d really like to be a ski instructor or maybe a lifeguard. Or even better yet, a pilot (although I do fly a Cessna).

But you know what? These jobs don’t pay the salary I need to support my family in the lifestyle I choose. It’s a sad situation, but jobs in the airline industry have changed. The once infallible giant is heading the way of the dinosaurs.

I wish you all the best of luck.

PS, I won’t be flying LUV.

[post="236273"][/post]​

No one is being obnoxious, just surprised when adults have a hard time making obvious decisions.

Perhaps you have chosen to be in a line of work that does not satisfy your dreams or ambitions in pursuit of the almighty dollar. But trust me, when many of the flight attendants start out, it is ALL ABOUT a dream, and a desire, because F/A's do not make much to start out, it takes years for many of the work groups to start making decent salaries.

Your lack of compassion for what is going on with the employees at the larger airlines is not uncommon at all. Unfortunately, until you are in the same shoes, you will never truly feel what many are going through.

But You are right about one thing.....

"You can’t blame the consumer nor can you stop technology from evolving just to protect jobs. That’s the free market. Just look where AT&T is headed. "


Be sure you have the same attitude when you find that your job or one of a loved one has taken hits because of the "fleecing" ( outsourcing) of america.

In the end, Flying SWA may be one of a few choices you have besides walking or the bus. :down:

 

[SpinDoc]

Couple of things to consider:

First of all, yes, many do give second thoughts to those who have lost their jobs.

Secondly, and more importantly, you appear to have forgotten the relationship. You are the employee. Your job is to show up, and do what you have contractually agreed with your employer to do. The passengers are the customers. Their contribution to the relationship is to enter into a contractual relationship with your employer, who has entered into a contractual relationship with you.

You agreed to the terms of that contract, through a vote of the union membership.

Michael:

Logic and common sense mean nothing to
the negative posters on this forum. It is their
objective to misinform and redirect any
information that points to them or their
comrades as being responsible for what they
did in PHL.

Unfortunately for them, the customers and the
rest of the employees of US Airways know what
happened and who was responsible. In the
minds of the customer it ruined their vacation
and regardless of whether or not it was a job
action or the work of a few bad employees,
they will forever remember the IAM as the
responsible party.

 

[biztraveller29]

In the
minds of the customer it ruined their vacation
and regardless of whether or not it was a job
action or the work of a few bad employees,
they will forever remember the IAM as the
responsible party.

[post="236334"][/post]​

Actually, consumers will forever remember US Airways as the responsible party.

 

[NVFlyer]

Trin03,

I did leave a career once. I was a paramedic in Fort Lauderdale. What a great job. Nice weather, non-stop excitement, an unrelenting feeling of accomplishment and the ability to truly help your neighbor.

But guess what? 10 bucks an hour wasn't going to pay the mortgage. So I busted my chops, got my degrees at night and moved into a comfortable and financially rewarding office job.

Not as exciting, but I now have the ability to fulfill some of my other dreams. I got my pilots license a few years ago, bought a small plane recently and now enjoy some of same experiences that drew so many of your colleagues to the airline industry.

You are responsible for fulfilling you own dreams – not someone else.

 

[Trin03]

Trin03,

I did leave a career once. I was a paramedic in Fort Lauderdale. What a great job. Nice weather, non-stop excitement, an unrelenting feeling of accomplishment and the ability to truly help your neighbor.

But guess what? 10 bucks an hour wasn't going to pay the mortgage. So I busted my chops, got my degrees at night and moved into a comfortable and financially rewarding office job.

Not as exciting, but I now have the ability to fulfill some of my other dreams. I got my pilots license a few years ago, bought a small plane recently and now enjoy some of same experiences that drew so many of your colleagues to the airline industry.

You are responsible for fulfilling you own dreams – not someone else.

[post="236423"][/post]​

Well dammed good for you! It is always wonderful and encouraging to others when people decide to move forward and do better for themselves. There are many airline workers including myself who hold advanced degrees and there are some who do not.

But , I would never be so smug or self-rightous as to tell them to get over it and deal with the fact that their salaries are being cut in half. In fact, sometimes I think that many outside of the industry have been jealous of the fact that many in the industry were able to make very good livings in their chosen careers.

The fact is, many of U's employees have put in 20, 30 years in. They did fullfill their dreams and are only fighting for their right to continue to fullfilling them. It is incredibly cruel and self rightous for ANYONE to tell them that their dreams are not worth squat.

So I challenge you to this. next time you fly U, if you decide to continue flying us... tell the agent when they are doing a great job... tell the Flight Attendant that you appreciate their attentiveness and dedication. Tell the Pilot, thank you for giving me a safe flight. And thank God, ( or whomever you worship) for the mechanics that made sure the plane you were riding in was in tip top mechanical shape.

Because without the various crew member, on the ground and in the air, pulling together... We would ALL be in major trouble.

 

[Bear96]

Even if you voted no on the contract, you still agreed to it. Why? Because you chose to have collective bargaining, which means that you agreed to abide by contracts ratified by the majority of your voting union members.

If the company doesn't abide by its end of the contract, then you can file suit for breach of contract (again, you agreed that your union representatives would do this for you). Randomly choosing not to show up for work is not one of the legitimately available options.

[post="236325"][/post]​

Now you're trying to change the issue. Of course people are free to leave; never said they weren't. But what you are overlooking is that people are also free to stay. My point is simply that very few, if any, U employees truly "agreed" to work under the current contracts; nothing more. They were more or less imposed by the company unilaterally, under the threat of judicial imposition.

So, yes people are free to leave if they don't like it. But that is a different issue and it doesn't change the fact that most people didn't really "agree" to the current contracts.

Let me guess your (and Row Under's) resopnse to that. You will say the day after the contracts were ratified or imposed and people showed up for work under the new conditions, they implicitly "agreed" to work under them. I would say that is only half the picture. What really seems to have happened is that the employees saw what they perceived as management unilaterally changing their contracts without true mutual assent, and so many employees also decided to change the contract on small, individual bases. For example, some may have decided to call in sick over Christmas when they weren't sick because, what the heck, management was playing dirty so why shouldn't I; some may have decided to no longer bust their butts for the customers or their employer because if they don't care about me, I don't care about them.

Is that a fair, logical, or rational response? Maybe not. Is it what you or I would have done? Maybe not. But it is the reality you have when people feel their terms and conditions of employment have been altered without their "agreement." Yes they have the right to leave -- but they also have the right to stay and do what they feel needs to be done (assuming it is not breaking any laws of course). I'm not defending it, but just pointing out the human element in all of this, since you refuse to acknowledge it (which I suspect is because you don't really understand it, like U management).



BTW:

If the company doesn't abide by its end of the contract, then you can file suit for breach of contract

You apparently know very little about the statutory RLA dispute resolution process.

And of course then there is the current issue of what recourse do the employees have when the JUDGE is the one breaching the contract, at the request of management?

 

[JS]

Bear96, you know as well as I that up until yesterday, every contract change has been AGREED to by a majority of the employees. "I don't like it" is not the same as "I vote NO". Stop twisting words.

Yesterday's court decision to throw out the contracts means that if the union votes down the company's last offer, there will be no contract and the employees are free to strike.

If, for some bizarre reason the court tries to force employees to work with no contract, I will join you on the picket line. That just makes no sense; it's slavery.

 

[mweiss]

Now you're trying to change the issue.

[post="236612"][/post]​

Um, no, I'm not. That is the issue. The first agreement made was for union representation, which included an agreement to accept contracts voted affirmatively by a majority of voting members. The second agreement was made by a majority of those voting members, specifically to accept the terms of the contract. The third agreement was made by the employee, to continue working under the new contract terms.

The fact that the employee may not like one or more of those agreements does not nullify them.

...the employees saw what they perceived as management unilaterally changing their contracts without true mutual assent...

They may well perceive it as such. But even with the Airbus outsourcing, they'd be wrong. That was a breach of contract. This is why there was a grievance filed, followed by all of the lovely legal wrangling.

...so many employees also decided to change the contract on small, individual bases.

Which is also a breach of contract. Since I haven't read the current AFA contract, I don't know if it's a terminable offense or not. It is, however, a violation of the contract, to which the employee agreed to abide. There are consequences to such actions.

Is that a fair, logical, or rational response?

Actually, I don't care if it's any of the above. It's not a legal response.

It may be a "fair, logical, or rational response" to hunt down your spouse's killer and put a bullet in his head, but our social contract dictates that you not do that. If you choose to do it anyway, you can be convicted of murder.

You apparently know very little about the statutory RLA dispute resolution process.

More than very little, but certainly not as much as some others around here. Nonetheless, I do know that the process is far more complex than I suggested with my "file suit" comment.

And of course then there is the current issue of what recourse do the employees have when the JUDGE is the one breaching the contract, at the request of management?

Careful how you phrase it. The judge is not "breaching the contract." Under bankruptcy law, the judge has the authority to rewrite the terms of any and all contracts. By the legal definition, this it not a breach of contract. It's intended to be the lesser of two evils (the other being cessation of business).

The big difference now is that, thanks to Lorenzo, the process has a couple of checks in it to prevent bankruptcy from being used as a tool to prematurely terminate labor contracts.

 

[Bear96]

JS and mweiss,

Hey, you can stay all you want to in your academic world of what is "legally" and "technically" "correct." And I generally agree with you.

But you ignore the importance of PERCEPTION, and human nature and behavior inherent in responding to that perception, at your own peril.

In a perfect airline world there would never be any weather or mechanical problems. That is just as unrealistic as the world you seem to expect airline employees to live in. But if it makes you feel superior to continue preach about "the way things ought to be," carry on. It has very little practical value though.