CC air was in the process of decertifying ALPA when they were promised the moon and stars above. The vote did not procede. Then when they had signed a contract which would have saved them, gotten them jets and better pay, ALPA national did not sign it. The CC air pilots then went to court to overturn the ALPA national decision and lost and now no longer exist.....
Have I no shame? Have you no shame….. Mesa has the contract which was negotiated for them by their elected representatives and signed by ALPA national. If that contract is substandard, you should question your own leadership.
As for your attitude of entitlement. How on earth are you entitled to better anything? Have you not turned on your television or read a newspaper? Have you no idea what is going on in airline world? Do you own the airline? You at Mesa are very, very lucky to maintain status quo. When offered a position with Mesa you accepted. You knew the rates of pay and accepted anyway. Now under the same rights to free enterprise which give me the right to work at Freedom Airlines you are free to quit a job which no longer suits you. No one is guaranteed that if they take a job the pay will always get better and the rules which govern their work more favorable.
Remember your own history as a Mesa pilot. First was Aspen Airways, in contract negotiations when Mesa bought them out and then parted them out. One former Aspen pilot was able to go to work for Mesa. After Aspen was West Air, bought out and parted out and careers ruined. Following was AirMidwest, and Crown Airways who each bad higher pay and better rules who fell under the rolling Mesa Wheel. Both union, both ceased to exist in previous form. I suppose you forgot that Mesa purchased all of ALG’s shorts and 1900’s which caused a furlough of over 200 pilots while the Mesa people were growing happily and resenting anyone who claimed it was not their right to do so if they could do so and as a result of their lower cost remain profitable. What has changed since Mesa organizing? CC air is not a good example of what becoming a single carrier with the Mesa pilots begets. Where are they now? What have YOU done for your furloughed brothers who share your “single list� Do they now matter less on the single list than do the Freedom pilots since they don’t have 70 or 90 seat jets which would yield higher rates of pay? You tell me about greed!
How does your integrity and professionalism feel about flying former U mainline routes which are being out-sourced to you? Does that make you a lesser person? I am sure that you think you are entitled to those routes and that certainly any furloughed U pilot who comes to work for Mesa to fly HIS/HER own route in an RJ should be stapled at the bottom? Mesa pilots are as we speak flying former mainline routes with nearly 2,000 mainline pilots out of work because their jobs were out-sourced. Last I heard Freedom had caused not one furlough. Am I missing something? Mesa may lose flying in PHX but they will get an equal amount of flying from U-Express in the 20 RJ/SJ's worth of flying that was exempt of the J4J protocal.
Mesa Airlines pilots had the chance to become the largest J4J carrier and voted “NO†when the time came to participate. If brotherhood and your furloughed USAirways brothers are so important, why the “NO†vote? I will tell you why. It would have possibly caused a furlough of Mesa Pilots and you were protecting your own. You just like the USAirways pilots don’t care one bit about the “greater goodâ€. So don’t be so surprised and shocked that the USAirways pilots are willing to do the same thing. USAirways and its pilots need J4J to happen yesterday or they will cease to exist and then there would be a major furlough of Mesa pilots along with 4,000 very experienced mainline pilots in a time when a good flying job is more rare than a winning lottery ticket. Freedom is offering 100% of the 500 jobs which J4J would creat for USAirways, can you beat that offer to an MEC who like yours is charged with protecting their own? Do you not think that will the advent of Republic Airlines that the U MEC operates on integrity?
I hear more and more about how the Mesa pilots want to be like Sky West. Have you not heard? They are nonunion as well! They are Freedom and they would have had most of the Mesa RJ routes out of PHX had Freedom not come about. America West wanted larger jets and didn’t really care who flew them as long as it would yield the greatest profit. Who now does the AMW flying out of CMH? Mesa does not have the exclusive on the America West Express flying nor do they on the USAirways Express flying. The name of the game is “cheap†and “profitable†and those are the animals which will survive as feeders with no routes of their own and only Bankrupt carriers to feed from.
Freedom was created for two reasons and is a direct side affect of a union strangle hold. USAirways scope prevented you as a Mesa pilot from flying anything larger than 50 seats. I am certain that prior to Freedom, that is what you mounted your soapbox to exclaim about. Were it not for 9/11 you would NEVER have gotten that scope to go away. As a matter of fact no one has seen evidence that it has gone permanently away yet. Secondly, the Mesa pilots had the chance to exclusively bid Freedom with seniority and longevity and those who did not missed their chance until the next bid if there is one. When you are part of a carrier which has a “set†profit margin, the room for greater cost in a time when their partners are in BR court demanding cost concessions, you are at will to your environment. Much like a bum upstairs who has no heat, you only get as warm as the family down below wants to make it…. Residual heat is never as good as the real thing and so it is for contract carriers who are cheap enough to outsource the jobs and routes of major carriers.
Best of luck to you and everyone in this disfunctional family we call the airlines. The year or two which follow will see the largest changes any major industry has ever seen. You and I could either sift out towards the top or nearer the bottom than ever and it is all about choices. Be sure that you make the choices which are best for you because when it comes right down to it, no one else will.
As for your attitude of entitlement. How on earth are you entitled to better anything? Have you not turned on your television or read a newspaper? Have you no idea what is going on in airline world? Do you own the airline? You at Mesa are very, very lucky to maintain status quo. When offered a position with Mesa you accepted. You knew the rates of pay and accepted anyway. Now under the same rights to free enterprise which give me the right to work at Freedom Airlines you are free to quit a job which no longer suits you. No one is guaranteed that if they take a job the pay will always get better and the rules which govern their work more favorable.
Remember your own history as a Mesa pilot. First was Aspen Airways, in contract negotiations when Mesa bought them out and then parted them out. One former Aspen pilot was able to go to work for Mesa. After Aspen was West Air, bought out and parted out and careers ruined. Following was AirMidwest, and Crown Airways who each bad higher pay and better rules who fell under the rolling Mesa Wheel. Both union, both ceased to exist in previous form. I suppose you forgot that Mesa purchased all of ALG’s shorts and 1900’s which caused a furlough of over 200 pilots while the Mesa people were growing happily and resenting anyone who claimed it was not their right to do so if they could do so and as a result of their lower cost remain profitable. What has changed since Mesa organizing? CC air is not a good example of what becoming a single carrier with the Mesa pilots begets. Where are they now? What have YOU done for your furloughed brothers who share your “single list� Do they now matter less on the single list than do the Freedom pilots since they don’t have 70 or 90 seat jets which would yield higher rates of pay? You tell me about greed!
How does your integrity and professionalism feel about flying former U mainline routes which are being out-sourced to you? Does that make you a lesser person? I am sure that you think you are entitled to those routes and that certainly any furloughed U pilot who comes to work for Mesa to fly HIS/HER own route in an RJ should be stapled at the bottom? Mesa pilots are as we speak flying former mainline routes with nearly 2,000 mainline pilots out of work because their jobs were out-sourced. Last I heard Freedom had caused not one furlough. Am I missing something? Mesa may lose flying in PHX but they will get an equal amount of flying from U-Express in the 20 RJ/SJ's worth of flying that was exempt of the J4J protocal.
Mesa Airlines pilots had the chance to become the largest J4J carrier and voted “NO†when the time came to participate. If brotherhood and your furloughed USAirways brothers are so important, why the “NO†vote? I will tell you why. It would have possibly caused a furlough of Mesa Pilots and you were protecting your own. You just like the USAirways pilots don’t care one bit about the “greater goodâ€. So don’t be so surprised and shocked that the USAirways pilots are willing to do the same thing. USAirways and its pilots need J4J to happen yesterday or they will cease to exist and then there would be a major furlough of Mesa pilots along with 4,000 very experienced mainline pilots in a time when a good flying job is more rare than a winning lottery ticket. Freedom is offering 100% of the 500 jobs which J4J would creat for USAirways, can you beat that offer to an MEC who like yours is charged with protecting their own? Do you not think that will the advent of Republic Airlines that the U MEC operates on integrity?
I hear more and more about how the Mesa pilots want to be like Sky West. Have you not heard? They are nonunion as well! They are Freedom and they would have had most of the Mesa RJ routes out of PHX had Freedom not come about. America West wanted larger jets and didn’t really care who flew them as long as it would yield the greatest profit. Who now does the AMW flying out of CMH? Mesa does not have the exclusive on the America West Express flying nor do they on the USAirways Express flying. The name of the game is “cheap†and “profitable†and those are the animals which will survive as feeders with no routes of their own and only Bankrupt carriers to feed from.
Freedom was created for two reasons and is a direct side affect of a union strangle hold. USAirways scope prevented you as a Mesa pilot from flying anything larger than 50 seats. I am certain that prior to Freedom, that is what you mounted your soapbox to exclaim about. Were it not for 9/11 you would NEVER have gotten that scope to go away. As a matter of fact no one has seen evidence that it has gone permanently away yet. Secondly, the Mesa pilots had the chance to exclusively bid Freedom with seniority and longevity and those who did not missed their chance until the next bid if there is one. When you are part of a carrier which has a “set†profit margin, the room for greater cost in a time when their partners are in BR court demanding cost concessions, you are at will to your environment. Much like a bum upstairs who has no heat, you only get as warm as the family down below wants to make it…. Residual heat is never as good as the real thing and so it is for contract carriers who are cheap enough to outsource the jobs and routes of major carriers.
Best of luck to you and everyone in this disfunctional family we call the airlines. The year or two which follow will see the largest changes any major industry has ever seen. You and I could either sift out towards the top or nearer the bottom than ever and it is all about choices. Be sure that you make the choices which are best for you because when it comes right down to it, no one else will.
ONTHESTREET
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Yankee Air Pirate,
Your post solidifies the main problem. Contrary to what you think the Mainline Unions do not hold that kind of power anymore. (Although its probably due to their own screw ups.) Mainline unions are on the same rollercoaster as everybody else.
As to what I think should have been done?
1. 100% of the flying transferred from mainline should still be flown by mainline pilots. U's MEC should have demanded that all 70 and 90 seat RJ's be flown by mainline. As well as any other flying that cost an ALPA member his or her seat. All this would have required was an RJ payscale.(Which already exists in the form of the F-28 scale. Some reduction in pay would probably have been needed to be viable in todays market. Had they done this the whole outsourcing problem of MESA, Freedom, and Republic would never have been.
2. Not one RJ should have been authorized to be flown by anyone other than the WO's until all the WO's were jet with no USAirways group pilot furloughed. Ideally all WO pilots should have been consolidated into Mainlines seniority list. Combine the WO's by date af hire then added to ML list. No job loss, no seat loss, as new seats came open from attrition the RJ capt's go to the 737 right seat rj F/O's to the RJ left seat etc.
3. After all U group pilots jobs were secured, then and only then should the contract carriers have been authorized to fly RJ's in U's colors. And then only to airlines that did not contain fragmented pilot groups. Even then it appears that there would have been plenty of RJ's to go around with no one losing their job.
Had ALPA not been opposed to a little change in some of the antiquated work rules left over from the regulation days and developed a fair but affordable contract that the ML managment could work with, we could have avoided most of this mess. Now getting mgmt. to go along with this would not have been easy. But had everybody stuck together it could have been done.
My feeling is this. If an airline cannot survive on its own without having to use another airlines name and logo, then that airline should not exist OR it should be on the same seniority list as its parent. As long as U or UA or DAL or whoever have several companies flying in one paint job we will always have this problem. ALPA needs to realize this and act accordingly or they will cease to exist.
Like you said, "What were Mesa pilots supposed to do" about CCAir, Mgmt was calling the shots. The same can be said for the Freedom guys. As far as I know, no MESA guy has lost a job due to Freedoms flying. I do know 1800 ML guys that have lost their job due to Freedom and others though. What I see is MESA getting angry because ML guys are flying old ML routes and keeping MESA from stealing them.
When and if MESA guys start losing jobs to Freedom, then you have a legitimate beef. As long as Freedom is flying old ML routes, it by definition, has to be an internal ML problem. All the 70 and 90 seaters are slated to fly ML routes so far.
Just my opinion. And please no "self serving comments" I am so far down the furlough list that I may get back in 15 years if I am lucky.
Your post solidifies the main problem. Contrary to what you think the Mainline Unions do not hold that kind of power anymore. (Although its probably due to their own screw ups.) Mainline unions are on the same rollercoaster as everybody else.
As to what I think should have been done?
1. 100% of the flying transferred from mainline should still be flown by mainline pilots. U's MEC should have demanded that all 70 and 90 seat RJ's be flown by mainline. As well as any other flying that cost an ALPA member his or her seat. All this would have required was an RJ payscale.(Which already exists in the form of the F-28 scale. Some reduction in pay would probably have been needed to be viable in todays market. Had they done this the whole outsourcing problem of MESA, Freedom, and Republic would never have been.
2. Not one RJ should have been authorized to be flown by anyone other than the WO's until all the WO's were jet with no USAirways group pilot furloughed. Ideally all WO pilots should have been consolidated into Mainlines seniority list. Combine the WO's by date af hire then added to ML list. No job loss, no seat loss, as new seats came open from attrition the RJ capt's go to the 737 right seat rj F/O's to the RJ left seat etc.
3. After all U group pilots jobs were secured, then and only then should the contract carriers have been authorized to fly RJ's in U's colors. And then only to airlines that did not contain fragmented pilot groups. Even then it appears that there would have been plenty of RJ's to go around with no one losing their job.
Had ALPA not been opposed to a little change in some of the antiquated work rules left over from the regulation days and developed a fair but affordable contract that the ML managment could work with, we could have avoided most of this mess. Now getting mgmt. to go along with this would not have been easy. But had everybody stuck together it could have been done.
My feeling is this. If an airline cannot survive on its own without having to use another airlines name and logo, then that airline should not exist OR it should be on the same seniority list as its parent. As long as U or UA or DAL or whoever have several companies flying in one paint job we will always have this problem. ALPA needs to realize this and act accordingly or they will cease to exist.
Like you said, "What were Mesa pilots supposed to do" about CCAir, Mgmt was calling the shots. The same can be said for the Freedom guys. As far as I know, no MESA guy has lost a job due to Freedoms flying. I do know 1800 ML guys that have lost their job due to Freedom and others though. What I see is MESA getting angry because ML guys are flying old ML routes and keeping MESA from stealing them.
When and if MESA guys start losing jobs to Freedom, then you have a legitimate beef. As long as Freedom is flying old ML routes, it by definition, has to be an internal ML problem. All the 70 and 90 seaters are slated to fly ML routes so far.
Just my opinion. And please no "self serving comments" I am so far down the furlough list that I may get back in 15 years if I am lucky.
ONTHESTREET,
Freedom as yet does not operate any aircraft which wear the U colors. Only Mesa, CHQ, TransStates, and now Midway operate jets in the blue and gray. However Freedom is the only carrier which hires only furloughed U pilots to fill the captains seats....
I agree with your thoughts however. All flying within a brand should be performed exclusively by the pilots who fly under the umbrella of that brand. I was an advocate of one list at airways with the RJ's going to the WO's and a bidirectional flow through. It never happened and I can't blame them one bit for not wanting to sign a flow with a carrier which can only flow backwards.
Freedom is just about that, Freedom to do what it takes. We have indicated that we are not opposed to organizing, that 100% of the seats could be filled by furloughed U pilots and also the possiblity does exist for USAirways to own a significant stake in Freedom should an agreement be reached to go beyond the 30/25 jet CRJ-700 agreement. Not a bad thing considering that MDA only exists on paper.
Luck is what we make if it......
Freedom as yet does not operate any aircraft which wear the U colors. Only Mesa, CHQ, TransStates, and now Midway operate jets in the blue and gray. However Freedom is the only carrier which hires only furloughed U pilots to fill the captains seats....
I agree with your thoughts however. All flying within a brand should be performed exclusively by the pilots who fly under the umbrella of that brand. I was an advocate of one list at airways with the RJ's going to the WO's and a bidirectional flow through. It never happened and I can't blame them one bit for not wanting to sign a flow with a carrier which can only flow backwards.
Freedom is just about that, Freedom to do what it takes. We have indicated that we are not opposed to organizing, that 100% of the seats could be filled by furloughed U pilots and also the possiblity does exist for USAirways to own a significant stake in Freedom should an agreement be reached to go beyond the 30/25 jet CRJ-700 agreement. Not a bad thing considering that MDA only exists on paper.
Luck is what we make if it......
Yankee Air Pirate
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Thank you to Cisco and ONTHESTREET for your replies. The central issue to my original post was not my perceived "rights" to OPR, Other People's Routes, or my frustration with a sub-standard contract, the standard now being a somewhat arbitrary line of comparison. As you well know, few people make their start at a commuter with any knowledge of the industry or its protracted labor/management battles. However, after one makes their way to a major or large national, it can be safely inferred that they have an adequate knowledge of the industry to make choices that match their life/career expectations. One would hope that making those subsequent choices they would not climb on the backs of their former brethren to achieve their goal. The example I have observed is to throw the rope down to your compatriots to make the next leap, whether that be from the commuter ranks, GA, corporate, or the military. Now the reverse scenario is in effect. People are looking for cover to ride out the storm. Making a choice about what you do is entirely your decision. Just expect to be held accountable for your choice. This entire scenario is a repeat of the F. Lorenzo days. Freedom is no different than New York Air. For those who held a position with a mainline carrier, you moved from a Mesa or other to achieve a quality of life that makes the job worth doing. ALPA volunteers worked hard to achieve those quality of life improvements over the life of many contracts. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume you approved of ALPA's efforts in your quest to secure employment with US, etc. New York Air/Freedom are a direct threat to any organized carriers quality of life improvements, thus a threat to ALPA at large. To choose a job at Freedom, while Mesa pilots are fighting to eliminate its threat is to step on all our backs. Obfuscate the truth any way you want, choosing Freedom is detrimental to others, either now or in the future. 1100+ pilots at Mesa chose not to believe management's promises. Why? Perhaps we are in tune with our local scenario better than an outsider? I don't care what size airplane I fly, I don't claim to have a right to OPR, I don't wish to grow at other pilot group's expense, and I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. However, I know if we sign the contract ALPA wants, the opportunity to create an Aspen, Westair, CCAir, Mesa (are we next?)scenario will be greatly reduced. Anyone that goes to Freedom now, delays that process and keeps J4J on hold even longer. We are ready and enthusiastic for J4J. In fact, I believe the whole concept was created by Mesa MEC chairman Andy Hughes in concert with the US MEC. But we won't participate in J4J until we sign a contract. It is one of the few leverage points we have to achieve a better quality of life, a quality of life that mainline furloughees will be subject to with J4J. By the way, I don't blame ALPA for anything. The whole scope problem that exists today was a lack of foresight. ALPA is a democratic franchise system that does have overriding agendas. I believe ALPA is the best path forward, although I don't always agree with the decisions at the top. We only have ourselves to blame when ALPA fails to account for a situation. We, the pilot group at large, are ALPA. Whatever failures or successes occur are due to the input or apathy of each member. However, I do believe ALPA still has the ability to negotiate a longterm path out of the outsourcing/whipsawing environment that exists today. It would only take one carrier to negotiate a long term proposal for one carrier/one seniority/one product as a foothold for the others. Carriers like Mohawk were amalgamated into a larger carrier they once fed or competed with. Mesa is really not much different than one of those carriers. I don't want to take mainline jobs/routes or anything else. I wish Mesa wore its own colors and offered its own product, much like Horizon. At least the company would be directly responsibile for customer complaints. In the meantime, focusing on winnable battles should be every ALPA pilots goal. The alter ego battle is at the front door. Who wins is up to more than just Mesa pilots.
Finally, I don't want to be Skywest. Management promised a "Skywest" contract as an initial verbal lure to attract interest in Freedom. Once the conditions of service were published, any goodwill management had built up evaporated when the pilots realized it was the same old Larry Risley/J. Ornstein promises versus actions. Nevertheless, Skywest seems to have a pretty good thing going with respect to pilot/management relations. With management participation, we could probably take a lesson or two from their playbook.
Cheers
Finally, I don't want to be Skywest. Management promised a "Skywest" contract as an initial verbal lure to attract interest in Freedom. Once the conditions of service were published, any goodwill management had built up evaporated when the pilots realized it was the same old Larry Risley/J. Ornstein promises versus actions. Nevertheless, Skywest seems to have a pretty good thing going with respect to pilot/management relations. With management participation, we could probably take a lesson or two from their playbook.
Cheers
ONTHESTREET
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The biggest problems have to do with the J4J and transfer of flying. As you state only Mesa, Midway, Transtate, and Chq, fly RJ's in U colors. This is one of the biggest problems. Not only does ML not fly them neither does any of the WO's. You were there when the RJ push came in 2000. I think that most of the pilots believed that when the 140 rj's were agreed to they were going to the WO's.
I can see the problem Mesa and the WO's have with J4J. They see it as losing seats. Only thing is that without the transfer of flying from mainline ZERO # of those seats would exist. If Mesa were losing turboprop seats because of freedom or existing RJ seats because of it, I would feel more for their plight. But right now as it stands the only guys losing jobs because of Freedom are the ML pilots on furlough.
Unfortunatly since our MEC appears too wishy washy to stop it I cannot begrudge a guy who flys for freedom to keep his family going. The downside is that as long as there are pilots willing to fly big airplanes for small pay, your job at ML will never return. Nor will the CWA's, and IAM's jobs either.
But in another 10 years or so when an RJ is defined as anything under 200,000 lbs, ALPA does not exist, and airline pilot pays the same as a burger king manager, it won't really matter much.
It is a shame that a job that takes many years and gobs of money to learn how to do has been reduced to this mess. I find it ironic that as the U.S. aviation industry gets safer, due almost entirely to the training and professionalism of the people that fly and work on the planes, those very people are the ones that are seen as dead weight by the CEO's that have nothing to do with the safety of the industry!
I can see the problem Mesa and the WO's have with J4J. They see it as losing seats. Only thing is that without the transfer of flying from mainline ZERO # of those seats would exist. If Mesa were losing turboprop seats because of freedom or existing RJ seats because of it, I would feel more for their plight. But right now as it stands the only guys losing jobs because of Freedom are the ML pilots on furlough.
Unfortunatly since our MEC appears too wishy washy to stop it I cannot begrudge a guy who flys for freedom to keep his family going. The downside is that as long as there are pilots willing to fly big airplanes for small pay, your job at ML will never return. Nor will the CWA's, and IAM's jobs either.
But in another 10 years or so when an RJ is defined as anything under 200,000 lbs, ALPA does not exist, and airline pilot pays the same as a burger king manager, it won't really matter much.
It is a shame that a job that takes many years and gobs of money to learn how to do has been reduced to this mess. I find it ironic that as the U.S. aviation industry gets safer, due almost entirely to the training and professionalism of the people that fly and work on the planes, those very people are the ones that are seen as dead weight by the CEO's that have nothing to do with the safety of the industry!
Y.A.P.,
You have good points and am enjoying the banter. Have you ever thought just a little about what a national "single list" would mean to you? With over 800 USAirways pilots on the street with over 13 years seniority and who were probably ALPA even before that, do you have any idea what that would/could do to you at Mesa and the other regionals? Should U liquidate and the PSA/PDT/ALG pilots and all their 20 ALPA pins be on the street, ALPA regionals might not have many or their origional pilots left.
How on earth would something like that work? Surely you wouldn't expect a healthy company to suffer the training costs when there was a 300 pilot flush from a poorly managed company which went out of business? How would they assign seniority on this national list? Date of hire with the Airline? If so what if their first airline wasn't ALPA? What if it is your second or third ALPA airline? Maybe by the date which they recieved their commercial license? Then would that list include corporate pilots and would they be expected to pay dues? What about pilots who were at ALPA and now another union or who started with another union and are now ALPA? What about many of your fellow Mesa pilots who were hired long before 1997 but were not union until then, do they just lose their seniority?
I think on the surface it sounds like a good concept. However, like the flat tax and the legalization of pot, its time has not yet come or even become a practical solution.
Good ideas happen every day, good ideas that work........priceless
You have good points and am enjoying the banter. Have you ever thought just a little about what a national "single list" would mean to you? With over 800 USAirways pilots on the street with over 13 years seniority and who were probably ALPA even before that, do you have any idea what that would/could do to you at Mesa and the other regionals? Should U liquidate and the PSA/PDT/ALG pilots and all their 20 ALPA pins be on the street, ALPA regionals might not have many or their origional pilots left.
How on earth would something like that work? Surely you wouldn't expect a healthy company to suffer the training costs when there was a 300 pilot flush from a poorly managed company which went out of business? How would they assign seniority on this national list? Date of hire with the Airline? If so what if their first airline wasn't ALPA? What if it is your second or third ALPA airline? Maybe by the date which they recieved their commercial license? Then would that list include corporate pilots and would they be expected to pay dues? What about pilots who were at ALPA and now another union or who started with another union and are now ALPA? What about many of your fellow Mesa pilots who were hired long before 1997 but were not union until then, do they just lose their seniority?
I think on the surface it sounds like a good concept. However, like the flat tax and the legalization of pot, its time has not yet come or even become a practical solution.
Good ideas happen every day, good ideas that work........priceless
DHC8Driver
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ONTHESTREET wrote:
"I can see the problem Mesa and the WO's have with J4J. They see it as losing seats. Only thing is that without the transfer of flying from mainline ZERO # of those seats would exist. If Mesa were losing turboprop seats because of freedom or existing RJ seats because of it, I would feel more for their plight. But right now as it stands the only guys losing jobs because of Freedom are the ML pilots on furlough"
As a WO Captain I'd like to clarify a point or two.
First, You state a WO pilot would have a problem with J4J's
because we see it as losing seats. You then state that "without the transfer of flying from mainline ZERO # of those seats would exist."
Realizing that the whole concept of Mainline vs WO vs contract carrier has been beat to death over the months and years, I won't rehash it now. However lets look at it from my view as a WO Captain.
PDT/ALG/PSA fly a combined total of ZERO (0) RJ's.
The latest gameplan for USGroup is to be turboprop free by 2008. That means all WO turboprops are going away.
Replace approx 130 turboprops with 130 jets and under the J4J's agreement, 500 current WO pilots get furloughed. 250 Captains get downgraded. That is with ZERO (0) growth in any of our airlines. That would make (by percentage) the decimation of pilot jobs at the WO far exceed anything Mainline has or will experience shy of a Ch. 7 filing by Airways.
That is loosing seats, and it had nothing to do with how big or how small Mainline gets. Yet, the WO were the first and only airlines to ratify J4J's. (Of course Midway, a nonexistant airline also did and now they are flying 2 aircraft.)
The WO have not grown while mainline has shrunk. We are furloughing and shrinking ourselves. Many planes lost and many pilots furloughed 1/5/03.
What I think would have been reasonable, is for the mainline alpa and WO alpa MEC's to get together and hammer out a plan. That did not happen for whatever reason.
If Mainline would have come up with a plan like:
1 for 1 turboprop to RJ replacements are staffed entirely by current WO pilots. any growth beyond the current 130 or so aircraft will be staffed 100% by mainline furloughees. Any aircraft larger than the current 50 seat DHC8-300, staffed 100% by mainline furloughees. With the number of RJ's Airways wants being in the hundreds, everybody would have a job. Of course, Mainline would demand Mesa, CHA, TSA and the others agree to J4J's also and some mainline pilots go to those companies as soon as they could. But lets face it. NONE of the contract carriers have agreed to take mainline furloughees, 1 or 2 have voted it down when brought to a vote, and with the contract carriers being dual code share with other airlines, why fly an RJ for USAir when you can fly that RJ for Delta or American, or America west, and fly 100% of the seats, get 100% of the upgrades. I have read numerous places that United is again talking to MESA about contract flying. Could be saber rattling, but who knows. All those other airlines codeshares don't come with a J4J restriction and the pilots know that.
"I can see the problem Mesa and the WO's have with J4J. They see it as losing seats. Only thing is that without the transfer of flying from mainline ZERO # of those seats would exist. If Mesa were losing turboprop seats because of freedom or existing RJ seats because of it, I would feel more for their plight. But right now as it stands the only guys losing jobs because of Freedom are the ML pilots on furlough"
As a WO Captain I'd like to clarify a point or two.
First, You state a WO pilot would have a problem with J4J's
because we see it as losing seats. You then state that "without the transfer of flying from mainline ZERO # of those seats would exist."
Realizing that the whole concept of Mainline vs WO vs contract carrier has been beat to death over the months and years, I won't rehash it now. However lets look at it from my view as a WO Captain.
PDT/ALG/PSA fly a combined total of ZERO (0) RJ's.
The latest gameplan for USGroup is to be turboprop free by 2008. That means all WO turboprops are going away.
Replace approx 130 turboprops with 130 jets and under the J4J's agreement, 500 current WO pilots get furloughed. 250 Captains get downgraded. That is with ZERO (0) growth in any of our airlines. That would make (by percentage) the decimation of pilot jobs at the WO far exceed anything Mainline has or will experience shy of a Ch. 7 filing by Airways.
That is loosing seats, and it had nothing to do with how big or how small Mainline gets. Yet, the WO were the first and only airlines to ratify J4J's. (Of course Midway, a nonexistant airline also did and now they are flying 2 aircraft.)
The WO have not grown while mainline has shrunk. We are furloughing and shrinking ourselves. Many planes lost and many pilots furloughed 1/5/03.
What I think would have been reasonable, is for the mainline alpa and WO alpa MEC's to get together and hammer out a plan. That did not happen for whatever reason.
If Mainline would have come up with a plan like:
1 for 1 turboprop to RJ replacements are staffed entirely by current WO pilots. any growth beyond the current 130 or so aircraft will be staffed 100% by mainline furloughees. Any aircraft larger than the current 50 seat DHC8-300, staffed 100% by mainline furloughees. With the number of RJ's Airways wants being in the hundreds, everybody would have a job. Of course, Mainline would demand Mesa, CHA, TSA and the others agree to J4J's also and some mainline pilots go to those companies as soon as they could. But lets face it. NONE of the contract carriers have agreed to take mainline furloughees, 1 or 2 have voted it down when brought to a vote, and with the contract carriers being dual code share with other airlines, why fly an RJ for USAir when you can fly that RJ for Delta or American, or America west, and fly 100% of the seats, get 100% of the upgrades. I have read numerous places that United is again talking to MESA about contract flying. Could be saber rattling, but who knows. All those other airlines codeshares don't come with a J4J restriction and the pilots know that.
Yankee Air Pirate
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Cisco,
I am not referring to a national seniority list. There should be only one certificate/seniority/product per carrier, i.e. only one US Airways. No "Connection", "Express", etc. or any other form of outsourcing. It is very difficult to control the quality of the product, service, flight ops, maintenance, etc. when you filter it down through so many layers of bureacracy. Take a look in any mainline US station in the publications area. The number of manuals they have to maintain to encompass all the different iterations of "Express" is ludicrious. How many carriers are there now, ten, with MDA on the way? When does it finally end? Until we are all whipsawed into oblivion. Granted, my job might be in jeoprady. I believe I have already taken "my" job at a mainline carrier. I don't believe it is fundamentally fair for a person who is hired at the namesake carrier to be on the street when their company continues to pay, indirectly, other employees at another company to operate their name, period. But as my father once told me, life isn't "fair". The major airline pilot groups stand as the only bulwark against the complete outsourcing of all major airline jobs. Just wait until Air China gets fifthe freedom rights and becomes the twelfth U.S. Airways Express. Then all of our jobs will go the way of the U.S. Maritime industry. Can you imagine 747-400 service to Beijing, operated as by Air China dba US Airways Express . . . I am sure the Front Offices can.
I am not referring to a national seniority list. There should be only one certificate/seniority/product per carrier, i.e. only one US Airways. No "Connection", "Express", etc. or any other form of outsourcing. It is very difficult to control the quality of the product, service, flight ops, maintenance, etc. when you filter it down through so many layers of bureacracy. Take a look in any mainline US station in the publications area. The number of manuals they have to maintain to encompass all the different iterations of "Express" is ludicrious. How many carriers are there now, ten, with MDA on the way? When does it finally end? Until we are all whipsawed into oblivion. Granted, my job might be in jeoprady. I believe I have already taken "my" job at a mainline carrier. I don't believe it is fundamentally fair for a person who is hired at the namesake carrier to be on the street when their company continues to pay, indirectly, other employees at another company to operate their name, period. But as my father once told me, life isn't "fair". The major airline pilot groups stand as the only bulwark against the complete outsourcing of all major airline jobs. Just wait until Air China gets fifthe freedom rights and becomes the twelfth U.S. Airways Express. Then all of our jobs will go the way of the U.S. Maritime industry. Can you imagine 747-400 service to Beijing, operated as by Air China dba US Airways Express . . . I am sure the Front Offices can.
ex-u pilot
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YAP - Instead of griping about a few pilots at U who were furloughed and would do anything for a flying job, take a good look around the industry right now.
Do you really think that there is a raise in the paycheck or quality of life for you or ANYONE in this crazy business right now?
Do you have any idea how close you are to non-existence in this business right now? Your company, MESA, code shares with two of the three weakest airlines in the country. Any slipups by AWA or U puts half your list on the street! They both will continue to demand quality code sharing service at a bargain basement price so they and by default you will stay in business. Right now there is NO leverage at all to getting Ornstein or anyone to cough up anything. It is pure survival mode for the airlines, their code share partners, and the people directly affected by this mess, the employees.
I am a furloughed u pilot. I was there almost 14 years. As close as I am to recall, I think I will be out for at least 4 years. I am just taking a job that will pay my mortgage and keep my nose above the waterline. Think I have messy finances and spend way beyond my means? Think again. The only payment I have is my utilities and my mortgage. But guess what? I took a 40% payhit at U before I lost my job. I make as a Freedom pilot 40% of my old pay. And guess what? I am damn glad to make that! I make more than an AMR eagle 1st year Captain and I don't have a union! You can cry all you want about terrible work conditions and the like. It won't get any better until the economy gets better and ALPA gets it's head out of its rear end. They helped create this monster and it will take years to put it to bed.
My advise to you at MESA is to sign a contract that helps your company thrive and grow. J4J's was one way to help you grow into oblivion and all you would have had to do was give some poor slobs a job flying a plane full of their passengers on their routes. No furloughs of MESA pilots would have resulted and everyone at MESA would have seen upticks in their quality of life and pay. Instead your MEC thought it best to tell the U MEC that they would agree to J4J only if JO gave you what you wanted. True blackmail. And all you do by delaying the inevitable is just give another airline to get the J4J flying and then you are SOL.
The Freedom pilots have agreed to 100% of the jobs on the 70 seaters going to the furloughed U pilots. Sight unseen. No blackmail, take it as it is. And you know what? Despite all the threats and the like, they will keep filling the Freedom classes with anyone from U or any other furloughed airline pilot.
Also, there is not one shred of evidence that Freedom is taking anything from the MESA group. We aren't hindering your negotiating position. The economy and the fact that both the airlines MESA holds dear are in dire straits.
Frats,
ex-U
Do you really think that there is a raise in the paycheck or quality of life for you or ANYONE in this crazy business right now?
Do you have any idea how close you are to non-existence in this business right now? Your company, MESA, code shares with two of the three weakest airlines in the country. Any slipups by AWA or U puts half your list on the street! They both will continue to demand quality code sharing service at a bargain basement price so they and by default you will stay in business. Right now there is NO leverage at all to getting Ornstein or anyone to cough up anything. It is pure survival mode for the airlines, their code share partners, and the people directly affected by this mess, the employees.
I am a furloughed u pilot. I was there almost 14 years. As close as I am to recall, I think I will be out for at least 4 years. I am just taking a job that will pay my mortgage and keep my nose above the waterline. Think I have messy finances and spend way beyond my means? Think again. The only payment I have is my utilities and my mortgage. But guess what? I took a 40% payhit at U before I lost my job. I make as a Freedom pilot 40% of my old pay. And guess what? I am damn glad to make that! I make more than an AMR eagle 1st year Captain and I don't have a union! You can cry all you want about terrible work conditions and the like. It won't get any better until the economy gets better and ALPA gets it's head out of its rear end. They helped create this monster and it will take years to put it to bed.
My advise to you at MESA is to sign a contract that helps your company thrive and grow. J4J's was one way to help you grow into oblivion and all you would have had to do was give some poor slobs a job flying a plane full of their passengers on their routes. No furloughs of MESA pilots would have resulted and everyone at MESA would have seen upticks in their quality of life and pay. Instead your MEC thought it best to tell the U MEC that they would agree to J4J only if JO gave you what you wanted. True blackmail. And all you do by delaying the inevitable is just give another airline to get the J4J flying and then you are SOL.
The Freedom pilots have agreed to 100% of the jobs on the 70 seaters going to the furloughed U pilots. Sight unseen. No blackmail, take it as it is. And you know what? Despite all the threats and the like, they will keep filling the Freedom classes with anyone from U or any other furloughed airline pilot.
Also, there is not one shred of evidence that Freedom is taking anything from the MESA group. We aren't hindering your negotiating position. The economy and the fact that both the airlines MESA holds dear are in dire straits.
Frats,
ex-U
aluminumtube
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You Freedumb guyes crack me up!
The only reason freedumb exists is to use it against Mesa in our pilotcontract negotiation. let's look at some facts. If the reason for Freedumb was to avoid U's scope why not kep it unionized and with Mesa seniority list? Nothing to prevent management from doing that, so please do not give me that bulls%@#
As U's scope came to a end, JO had to change his argument for keeping Freedumb seperate: "I do not want to pay what Mesa pilots want to fly the 70/90 seaters." Thats the bottom line, nothing else. JO will not go to the negotiating table like most CEOs do in these situations, specially since Mesa is in negotiation.
Another fact remains, Mesa would very likely had a new contract by now if it was not for you guyes, and every one would have benefitted ( well, some of you probably would have been in the right sear for some months longer before upgrading...)
Stop the rationalization as of why you went to freedumb. Nobody buys it ( except yourself ) If you think you did the right ting, then why do you hide your ID as you walk around the ramp at PHX, or use Mesas when jumpseating?
The only reason freedumb exists is to use it against Mesa in our pilotcontract negotiation. let's look at some facts. If the reason for Freedumb was to avoid U's scope why not kep it unionized and with Mesa seniority list? Nothing to prevent management from doing that, so please do not give me that bulls%@#
As U's scope came to a end, JO had to change his argument for keeping Freedumb seperate: "I do not want to pay what Mesa pilots want to fly the 70/90 seaters." Thats the bottom line, nothing else. JO will not go to the negotiating table like most CEOs do in these situations, specially since Mesa is in negotiation.
Another fact remains, Mesa would very likely had a new contract by now if it was not for you guyes, and every one would have benefitted ( well, some of you probably would have been in the right sear for some months longer before upgrading...)
Stop the rationalization as of why you went to freedumb. Nobody buys it ( except yourself ) If you think you did the right ting, then why do you hide your ID as you walk around the ramp at PHX, or use Mesas when jumpseating?
B
BottomFeeder
Guest
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/7/2003 9:17:26 AM DHC8Driver wrote:
ONTHESTREET wrote:
As a WO Captain I'd like to clarify a point or two.
The WO have not grown while mainline has shrunk. We are furloughing and shrinking ourselves. Many planes lost and many pilots furloughed 1/5/03.
If Mainline would have come up with a plan like:
1 for 1 turboprop to RJ replacements are staffed entirely by current WO pilots. any growth beyond the current 130 or so aircraft will be staffed 100% by mainline furloughees.
____-----------------___________--------------
DHC8Driver,
You, who is only interested in saving your own job only. You would allow your W/O furloughed people to be tossed aside so to save a ML furloughed. All in the name of saving your own "CAPTAIN" position.
You don't deserve ANYTHING. You self serving CAPTAIN.
----------------
On 1/7/2003 9:17:26 AM DHC8Driver wrote:
ONTHESTREET wrote:
As a WO Captain I'd like to clarify a point or two.
The WO have not grown while mainline has shrunk. We are furloughing and shrinking ourselves. Many planes lost and many pilots furloughed 1/5/03.
If Mainline would have come up with a plan like:
1 for 1 turboprop to RJ replacements are staffed entirely by current WO pilots. any growth beyond the current 130 or so aircraft will be staffed 100% by mainline furloughees.
____-----------------___________--------------
DHC8Driver,
You, who is only interested in saving your own job only. You would allow your W/O furloughed people to be tossed aside so to save a ML furloughed. All in the name of saving your own "CAPTAIN" position.
You don't deserve ANYTHING. You self serving CAPTAIN.
aluminumtube
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"Also, there is not one shred of evidence that Freedom is taking anything from the MESA group. We aren't hindering your negotiating position. The economy and the fact that both the airlines MESA holds dear are in dire straits."
Are you kidding me?????
You truly lives up to the name of Freedumb....
Sure you are not taking anything from the Mesa GROUP, Freedom Is PART OF THE GROUP. Where did you learn to spin off like this? J.O?
Mesa Airlines though IS taking a hit and you know it. Lines at Mesa ARE fewer and airplanes are taken off line. I had several cansellation so my paycheck is getting smaller every payday. Just waiting for furlough and the massive lawsuits that will follow.
That you claim Freedumb is not hindering our negotiation shows either your level of intelligence or what type of pilots that joined freedumb.
"The economy and the fact that both the airlines MESA holds dear are in dire straits."
Commuters is and are going to be the money-makes the next 2-3 years ( at least ) and Mesa made good profit even since 9-11. Sure, J.O. wants rather a profit margin of 21% having you guyes fly the 70 seaters vs 18.5% marging with us flying them. Thats the bottom line why he created a ununionized Freedumb.
Are you kidding me?????
You truly lives up to the name of Freedumb....
Sure you are not taking anything from the Mesa GROUP, Freedom Is PART OF THE GROUP. Where did you learn to spin off like this? J.O?
Mesa Airlines though IS taking a hit and you know it. Lines at Mesa ARE fewer and airplanes are taken off line. I had several cansellation so my paycheck is getting smaller every payday. Just waiting for furlough and the massive lawsuits that will follow.
That you claim Freedumb is not hindering our negotiation shows either your level of intelligence or what type of pilots that joined freedumb.
"The economy and the fact that both the airlines MESA holds dear are in dire straits."
Commuters is and are going to be the money-makes the next 2-3 years ( at least ) and Mesa made good profit even since 9-11. Sure, J.O. wants rather a profit margin of 21% having you guyes fly the 70 seaters vs 18.5% marging with us flying them. Thats the bottom line why he created a ununionized Freedumb.
A320 Driver
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/10/2003 9
14 AM BottomFeeder wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/7/2003 9:17:26 AM DHC8Driver wrote:
ONTHESTREET wrote:
As a WO Captain I'd like to clarify a point or two.
The WO have not grown while mainline has shrunk. We are furloughing and shrinking ourselves. Many planes lost and many pilots furloughed 1/5/03.
If Mainline would have come up with a plan like:
1 for 1 turboprop to RJ replacements are staffed entirely by current WO pilots. any growth beyond the current 130 or so aircraft will be staffed 100% by mainline furloughees.
____-----------------___________--------------
Yeah, your shrinking now but what about 1-1-91, 1-1-92, 1-1-93, 1-1-94 etc. The WOs grew through the early 90s while we shrunk on mainline. We lost station after station to WO flying. FAY, CHA, TYS, CHO, LYH, just to name a few. Your in here with the rest of us now. We've been losing ground since 1991.
Welcome Aboard
A320 Driver
----------------
On 1/10/2003 9
14 AM BottomFeeder wrote: [blockquote]
----------------
On 1/7/2003 9:17:26 AM DHC8Driver wrote:
ONTHESTREET wrote:
As a WO Captain I'd like to clarify a point or two.
The WO have not grown while mainline has shrunk. We are furloughing and shrinking ourselves. Many planes lost and many pilots furloughed 1/5/03.
If Mainline would have come up with a plan like:
1 for 1 turboprop to RJ replacements are staffed entirely by current WO pilots. any growth beyond the current 130 or so aircraft will be staffed 100% by mainline furloughees.
____-----------------___________--------------
Yeah, your shrinking now but what about 1-1-91, 1-1-92, 1-1-93, 1-1-94 etc. The WOs grew through the early 90s while we shrunk on mainline. We lost station after station to WO flying. FAY, CHA, TYS, CHO, LYH, just to name a few. Your in here with the rest of us now. We've been losing ground since 1991.
Welcome Aboard
A320 Driver
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