Federal Court Grants US Airways' Request For an Expedited Hearing On A Preliminary Injunction Agains

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how would the pay and benefits, working conditions etc. be if the Union is dissolved?

Say it is forced into recievership and or disolved, wouldnt all the pilots then be in an "at will" arrangement?

and isnt it ileagle to not have the same pay etc for different people doin the same job?

or am i mistaken?

How would not having a union be different from having usapa?

We are not getting improved working conditions. Contract is a long way away.
Pilots are being harassed and called into the office. usapa can't stop it.
West grievances are being ignored or bargained away.

The west may be better off without a union. At least there would not be an active group trying to do harm to us we would only have to protect ourselves from the company, not the company AND the union.

 

[A320 Driver]

How would not having a union be different from having usapa?

We are not getting improved working conditions. Contract is a long way away.
Pilots are being harassed and called into the office. usapa can't stop it.
West grievances are being ignored or bargained away.

The west may be better off without a union. At least there would not be an active group trying to do harm to us we would only have to protect ourselves from the company, not the company AND the union.

So you would be willing to write Parker a blank check and rely on "the goodness of his heart"? No union means NO contract. The company is free to impose whatever they want on you.

You OK with that?

Driver <_<

 

[BoeingBoy]

you know what i was askin jim, dont act like you didnt..

All I know is what you originally posted - isn't it illegal to pay 2 people doing the same job different amounts or are you mistaken? That's what I quoted from your post and answered. Two pilots doing the same job can be paid different rates now. Why should that change just because they become at will employees. Just ask any old US customer service employee if they all made the same before they elected to unionize in the early 90's.

As for your other question (which I didn't answer because there is single answer), it'd depend. Is another representitive election in the works? As someone else said, status quo (and different pay rates East vs West). Is the company going to honor the current contracts despite no CBA (at will pilots)? Different pay rates. Will the company impose a combined contract on at will pilots? Most likely the "same" rates (but those longevity steps and equipment rates will probably still be there).

Look around the business world and you'll find different people doing the same job being paid different amounts. Union or no union. A lot of the time it's due to longevity but not always.

Anyway, the idea of every pilot being paid the same rate doesn't exist now and most probably wouldn't magically happen if the pilots had no union representation. Just look at B6 - rejection unionization twice (IBT & ALPA), have individual contracts with the company, but standard pay scales (not standard pay across the board).

Jim

 

[im back..!!]

All I know is what you originally posted - isn't it illegal to pay 2 people doing the same job different amounts or are you mistaken? That's what I quoted from your post and answered. Two pilots doing the same job can be paid different rates now. Why should that change just because they become at will employees. Just ask any old US customer service employee if they all made the same before they elected to unionize in the early 90's.

As for your new question, it'd depend. Is another representitive election in the works? As someone else said, status quo (and different pay rates East vs West). Is the company going to honor the current contracts despite no CBA (at will pilots)? Different pay rates. Will the company impose a combined contract on at will pilots? Most likely the "same" rates (but those longevity steps and equipment rates will probably still be there).

Look around the business world and you'll find different people doing the same job being paid different amounts. Union or no union. A lot of the time it's due to longevity but not always.

Anyway, the idea of every pilot being paid the same rate doesn't exist now and most probably wouldn't magically happen if the pilots had no union representation. Just look at B6 - rejection unionization twice (IBT & ALPA), have individual contracts with the company, but standard pay scales (not standard pay across the board).

Jim

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well, i thought the point of "at will" would clue you to no other bargaining agent, but if you want to play games...sheesh

so, if we loose USAPA then will an east 320 payscale and a west pay scale dissapear into a non-union "Payscale at Usairways" for the equipment flown...

or will a 20 year f/o make a different pay depending on where he came from, or where he is based....?

 

[BoeingBoy]

If USAPA went away for whatever reason (other than a different union being elected to replace it just like it replaced ALPA), the pilots would be at will employees for a time no matter what happened - an election for another union is sought, whatever. So "at will" does nothing to clarify the situation. At will could mean a few weeks or the rest of your career.

As I said, there is no single answer because there are too many variables. Having said that and given your scenario (pilots become and stay at will employees), I would NOT expect East and West pay scales unless the company continued honoring the current contracts (which they would not be required to do). Likewise, I wouldn't expect a single pay scale (not rate) for each seat. The company could impose a single Capt scale and F/O scale - that already exists on the West side (but is different from a single Capt and F/O pay rate). I would expect the company to continue the pattern of longevity increases and F/O to Capt increases although it's certainly not guaranteed. But almost anything could happen.

Jim

 

[im back..!!]

If USAPA went away for whatever reason (other than a different union being elected to replace it just like it replaced ALPA), the pilots would be at will employees for a time no matter what happened - an election for another union is sought, whatever. So "at will" does nothing to clarify the situation. At will could mean a few weeks or the rest of your career.

As I said, there is no single answer because there are too many variables. Having said that and given your scenario (pilots become and stay at will employees), I would NOT expect East and West pay scales unless the company continued honoring the current contracts (which they would not be required to do). Likewise, I wouldn't expect a single pay scale (not rate) for each seat. The company could impose a single Capt scale and F/O scale - that already exists on the West side (but is different from a single Capt and F/O pay rate). I would expect the company to continue the pattern of longevity increases and F/O to Capt increases although it's certainly not guaranteed.

Jim

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thanks for explaining your thoughts on that, (it was painful, trying to clearafy)

so, could i expect to make the same as my counterpart in the west, if USAPA is disolved?

or is there some bizzare law that allows me to be paid less?

 

[SparrowHawk]

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thanks for explaining your thoughts on that, (it was painful, trying to clearafy)

so, could i expect to make the same as my counterpart in the west, if USAPA is disolved?

or is there some bizzare law that allows me to be paid less?

Not being an expert on the Railway Labor Act I could be wrong. Here's my take on your question(s).

If USAPA becomes the Labor equivalent of worm food then you'd likely be "at will" for a period of time as Jim stated. During that time you'd also be "at the mercy" of US Airways in that they can and would dictate work rules, duty rigs, what kind of Seniority List, if any as well as rate of pay, etc etc.

US Airways IMO would establish a uniform wage based on type flown, as well as identical work rules, fleet size would be at their whim and whimsy. In short the protections you have now such as they are would be as gone as the DC-3.

That's the gloom and doom scenario. However IF US was smart and ahead of the curve they'd pay you just enough for you to stick around and not vote in a union. They can not afford to be cheap as they would have huge turnover rate in the 20% range of pilots bailing out. Not to mention a nasty organizing campaign. PLUS, They couldn't ramp up hiring and training that fast. Remember companies sometimes will pay a little extra to keep the unions out.

It's nearly impossible to predict what would happen if USAPA went into the vapor. As bleeped up as things are the very last thing the pilots need is to be at will employees with this gang of liars cheats and thieves.

 

[N924PS]

What is sad here is that Pilots "should be trusted" using their judgement regarding safety! What they have done is undermined that appearance of "safety first" in the name of their form of justice. I am a crewmember and I know for a fact what has happened with these meaningless "writeups"...I can tell you for a fact that my co workers have and will be the final nail for USAPA because they have caused a mis trust among fellow crew members. There use to be a trust we had when a Pilot said something needed attention. Now no one knows what is real or what is Politics. They have made their bed and should oust their leader who has placed them in major debt and more than likely will bankrupt USAPA!

Here are some pilots that you could trust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQac9s-tyXk&feature=related

 

[Career Reserve]

Declaration of Dr. Darin Lee (Senior Vice President in the Boston, MA office of Compass Lexecon and specialize in the economics of the airline industry, industrial organization, labor economics and auctions): August 15, 2011

I, DARIN N. LEE, PH.D., declare and state as follows:

1. I am a Senior Vice President in the Boston, MA office of Compass Lexecon and specialize in the economics of the airline industry, industrial organization, labor economics and auctions. My business address is 200 State Street, 9th Floor, Boston, Massachusetts, 02109. My qualifications and curriculum vitae are set forth in Section I and Appendix A, respectively, of my Expert Report filed on July 29, 2011 in support of Plaintiff’s Motion for Preliminary Injunction in this matter.1


3. Similarly, since May 1st, pilot actions have resulted in a 0.6 percentage point increase in Charlotte mainline departures operated by East pilots being cancelled. Put differently, approximately 60% of all Charlotte cancellations since May 1st are attributable to pilot actions. Combined with the 1.0 percentage point increase in cancellations for East mainline flights arriving to Charlotte attributable to pilot actions, this represents an average of 3.8 Charlotte flights per day being cancelled due to pilot actions, or over 400 flights since May 1st.

4. I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States that the foregoing statements are true and correct.

Executed this 15th day of August, 2011, at Boston, Massachusetts.

Ok, I must be terrible at math but how does 0.6% (less than 1 percent) of CLT mainline cancellations equate to 60% of all Charlotte flights getting cancelled and attributed to one group? Forget the group, explain the math please. **See #3 above**

 

[BoeingBoy]

so, could i expect to make the same as my counterpart in the west, if USAPA is disolved?

or is there some bizzare law that allows me to be paid less?

Again, as I said, it depends. What does the company do for starters? Honor current contracts, impose a new single contract, pay every pilot minimum wage? How about SLI - what does the company do? What do you mean by "counterpart in the west"? Same longevity, same position, both? Again, as I said, I'd guess the company would at worst establish a captain's pay scale and f/o's pay scale but with differences in longevity two 737 f/o's could be getting different pay rates just as is currently the case.

In short, as I said, your question can't really be answered because there are unknown variables that determine the answer. Other than saying that I'd give 100 to 1 odds that being original US or HP wouldn't by itself make a difference in pay.

It's difficult to clarify because no one knows what would happen and that knowledge is necessary to truly answer the question. I edited my previous post a half dozen times because I'd think of a situation that would make what I originally said not necessarily true.

Jim

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Ok, I must be terrible at math but how does 0.6% (less than 1 percent) of mainline cancellations equate to 60% of all Charlotte flights getting cancelled and attributed to one group? Forget the group, explain the math please. **See #3 above** IS this the fussy math I remember hearing about???? :blink:

and, remember, it is not the pilot who cancels a flight. They only bring something to the attention of MOC/Dispatcher/whomever. Those are the ones who decide when a flight is canceled or not, and not the pilot.

What is it that people here think otherwise? Is Valley Fever contagious or something?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ok, I must be terrible at math but how does 0.6% (less than 1 percent) of mainline cancellations equate to 60% of all Charlotte flights getting cancelled and attributed to one group? Forget the group, explain the math please. **See #3 above** IS this the fussy math I remember hearing about???? :blink:

Percentages are funny things and a lot of people have problems getting a handle on them. It's amazing to me, who loved math, that many people think that if you reduce something by 50%, all you have to do is increase what's left by 50% to get back to the original amount.

First, Lee did the analysis in two parts - May 1 to a date I forget, then updating that with later data. So let's suppose his initial analysis showed that 59.4% of CLT cancellations were due to pilot actions. Increase that by 0.6 points with the later data and you have 60%. Given his occupation, I suspect that you'll have extreme difficulty faulting his math. The underlying assumptions that went into that math may be another story.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

and, remember, it is not the pilot who cancels a flight.

Good try and very true, but Lee doesn't say that pilot's cancel flights. A non-pilot example - a ramper driving the beltloader puts a hole in the side of an airplane, breaking stringers and ribs. MOC, considering all the factors, decides to cancel that flight. Did MOC cause the cancellation or did the ramper? Lee talks about pilot caused cancellations. In my hypothetical, if the company were trying to prove that rampers were engaged in an illegal job action, Lee would be talking about ramper caused cancellations.

Jim

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

First, Lee did the analysis in two parts - May 1 to a date I forget, then updating that with later data. So let's suppose his initial analysis showed that 59.4% of CLT cancellations were due to pilot actions. Increase that by 0.6 points with the later data and you have 60%. Given his occupation, I suspect that you'll have extreme difficulty faulting his math. The underlying assumptions that went into that math may be another story.

Bingo. As usual, you exposed his hubris, a money making tool if I ever saw one.

All he has to do is convince the judge, right or wrong. Perhaps his demeanor is more important that his supposed math skills? Proof might seem to lie in the profferers communicative skills rather than actual math skills. Lectures at real universities has led me to question where we as a society are going with this. Global warming is a great example.

 

[BoeingBoy]

As I said, I'd be careful critizing his math skills. Chances are good that he knows more about math, and statistical analysis in particular, than any of us. What I said was that a defense of USAPA would be well served looking at the assumptions rather than the math used.

Jim