"fair And Equitably" For All Affected Creditors

[Bohica]

So in a nut shell: Even though LUV’s mechanics will be making $40 and hour in the coming years the remaining U mechanics will be making half that, well a judge doesn't care. Maybe you're dead on spot? Probably are which is sad.

[post="179543"][/post]​

Well Cav, if that is true then it is probably better for U to go out of business. Why live with a contract with no hope of a raise (8 year duration) when starting over somewhere else would have the upside of future raises?

A little more short term pain with a longer term gain? I see no scenario where U would ever be a lucrative employer again.

BOHICA

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

usairways_vote_NO:

Can you avoid the hit if the bus work is lost and added to that there is indeed a 30% across the board job cut. If you can't then this is a waste of energy better put to a new future, and if you can withstand these severe blows then my best wishes to you as you endure the storm. A lot of us less then 20 year and something employees will no longer be part of this drama, which is no big surprise to anyone. Duh

It was fun while it lasted. I was just talking to a cleaner friend of mine who is my neighbor, he has a ton of time and feels he is finished, another neighbor working catering is looking to retire anyway, yet another neighbor has been on OJI for three years and knows he’s gone and why he is riding the OJI out! I Love It….tongue in cheek of course.

[post="179542"][/post]​

I have my future planned out very carefully since you asked and can survive anything that happens including severe blows. But if this is such a waste of energy as you imply to me and you have left for greener pastures (why did you include yourself in the less then 20 bunch if you have left?) why are you wasting your energy here? Just curious. All I am doing with this topic is educating the employees left what the law is pertaining to USAIR abrogating CBA's . I don't think for one minute think I am changing anything for me personally I am just pointing out the facts for those that do not know. Whats wrong with that as a current employee, former employee or non employee? I am not just preaching doom and gloom with this topic as you are just the facts.

 

[jack mama]

1.5 billion in concessions...800 mil from labor, 700 mil from operational improvements...

sounds almost 50/50 to me...pretty fair and equitable, even in a court

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

As far as you GadgetFreak this is my last reply to you until you accept the fact that your replies are off topic. It would be much better for you to open a topic for your discussion because it has no connnection to this topic at all. As I said to Cav all I am doing is posting facts and law you on the otherhand are posting what you think will happen (and I don't have any opinion if what you say it will or will not happen because if it did it still wouldn't change the fact that all parties (parties as mentioned here doesn't not mean comparing USAIR's labor rates to other airlines labor rates) would have to be treated "fairly and equitably" under the law) and what you think will happen doesn't even remotely apply to the topic this thread was started about.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

1.5 billion in concessions...800 mil from labor, 700 mil from operational improvements...

sounds almost 50/50 to me...pretty fair and equitable, even in a court

[post="179571"][/post]​

Cool do you mind breaking down the 800 mil from labor telling us what groups its coming from including management and what area of the cuts would the creditors fall under, as far as being treated equally, labor or operational?

 

[RowUnderDCA]

http://www.transformingusairways.com/html/...rstDayBrief.pdf

Refer to page 24. U today is telling the judge that it's 'Stage Length & Seat Density Adjusted Mainline Labor CASM' for the 1st half of 2004 is 4.2 cents compared to 3.0, 2.6, 2.6 and 2.0 for WN, HP, B6 and FL, respectively. Show me how you convince a judge that U's labor costs are less or approximate to its competitors?

 

[MerlinMagician]

For those ill-informed people that think U employee labor costs are the highest in the industry,please see this article. As for mechanics according to an article from the USA Today U mechanics are the second lowest paid in the industry. http://www.southwest.com/swatakeoff/aviation_daily.pdf

 

[GadgetFreak]

First, let me clarify that I am not talking about salaries. I did not use that word. I did not refer to hourly rates. I am talking about labor costs. It isnt the same thing.

Secondly, usairways_vote_no, my comments are certainly not off topic but are at the point of this issue. You may disagree with me, and you certainly do. But the topic is what a judge will accept as "fair and equitable". The fact that I see a judge making a ruling differently, and based on different parameters than you do doesnt mean I am off topic. Rather it means that I think a judge will apply different factors in determining what is "fair and equitable" than you apply. I also think you are making an assumption that the judge has a role in protecting the employees, and I disagree with that as well.

The judge will act to protect the creditors. He will look at labor cost, management costs and other issues. The fact that you think manage gets paid to much will not effect how he responds to requests versus union contracts. The judge may agree (I certainly do) that management cost cuts proposed will be inadequate. So he will tell them to cut more if that is the case. He wont tell them to cut labor less. That isnt his job, his job is to protect the creditors. If something looks like it will help the creditors and it is what is on the open market it will pass a reasonableness test. Thats all Im saying. You disagree but it is spot on topic.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

GadgetFreak,

As far as the "fairly and equitably" quote that was derived by me directly from and was meant to apply directly to section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. Though those words most certainly can be used in any manner anyone chooses, such as you having the judge determining what is fair and equitable in relation to just labor costs.

Direct from section 1113 the quote is...

"which provides for those necessary modifications in the employees
benefits and protections that are necessary to permit the
reorganization of the debtor and assures that all creditors, the
debtor and all of the affected parties are treated fairly and
equitably".

In starting this topic I am only showing that the law states that the debtor and all affected parties (including creditors, union labor, management etc) are treated fairly and equitably. In other words whatever the deptor (not the judge because the judge can only 1. terminate or not terminate the CBA'S and 2. impose a company proposal for temporary relief (which by the way has to be done "fairly and equitable" among all parties) and only then until the determination is made to abrogate or not the CBA's) proposes must be imposed equitably on all affected parties (including creditors, union labor, management etc).

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

Well, they did it, it should come as no surprise, they had it planned all along, U's folks could have volunteered to pay the company $1.60 an hour for the privilege of working there and they would have still filed, then demanded that the employees pay them $3.50 an hour for that privilege.

Don't know how the story comes out but best regards to U employees in a stressful time.

Still, bankruptcy is not what it was back in the early 80s when Braniff died. No parked airplanes, no stranded employees getting tossed in the "4th hostess" jumpseat on WN to get them back to Dallas. Once upon a time, failure to manage your finances better would have been a mark of shame and management would be cringing at the thought of a bankruptcy. Now, it's more like a hobby or pasttime, as vulture-like management have no qualms about taking a bankruptcy...sorry if it causes any of you creditors any problems, it's just business.....in order to hose the employees.

Once upon a time taking a bankruptcy would have been thought of in the same terms as having cancer. Now it's no more problematic than a hangnail or a cold sore.

A really neat analogy would be taking a bankruptcy is like being pregnant out of wedlock. When I was in high school, if someone got pregnant, it was called "having to get married." Now, they thorw a baby shower for all the pregnant unwed teens in maternal science class. But I digress.

Labor costs. Southwest folks are paid more, but U's labor costs per ASM is higher. Tell me, whose fault is that?

The union? The employees? Fortuna?

No, the sole culprit here is management. They have built an airline that squanders people's productivity and wastes labor.

And if I were labor's lawyers in the bankruptcy courts...that would be MY non-negotiable demand --- I'm willing to work for a little less, and I am willing to work harder, more productively. Management sets the schedules. Management dictates how many flights per shift I work. None of that is labor's responsibility. Stick me up at a gate and have 8 planes come and go during an 8 hour shift instead of 3? Fine. Have planes arriving at 20 minute intervals all day long, rather than 15 flights all at once, so fewer ground people are required? Okay fine.

But let's not be stupid about this. It is the responsibility of management to build a productive system, not the employees' to subsidize management incompetence.

 

[StewGuy86]

But let's not be stupid about this. It is the responsibility of management to build a productive system, not the employees' to subsidize management incompetence.

[post="179636"][/post]​

Right on!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Doc]

According to ALPA's attorney's who spoke to the MEC in "open session" last week, ALPA had strong arguments in the TWA case and still lost. The court's primary interest is preserving the state for the creditors and ALPA's attorney's have repeatedly said every day the union waits to cut a deal the worse it will get.

Guess what? They were right.

Furthermore, the attorney's have said the contracts could be "shredded". It no longer matters what we think we are worth or a comparison to other companies, it's what the court thinks we are worth and Judge Mitchell is clearly on the company's side.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="179411"][/post]​

Here you go again telling everybody they are going to give no matter what ......
well I have news for you can you tell me one contract that has been canceled in BK .....UAL has been in BK for 2yrs now they are still on there pay scale and LUV has a higher pay scale than U so a judge may not be so inclined to slash or wages as you think it may happen.....Although your pay scale days are numbered....

 

[bestservedcold]

Sorry, this doesnt change anything in my mind. What I am saying is that 1) US labor cost are higher than Southwest and 2) that US will be able to convince a judge that the going rate for labor cost is defined by the competition. As a result forcing US employees to meet those numbers will help protect creditors and cannot possibly determined to be unfair since it is the going rate for that labor. The main purpose of these proceedings are to protect the creditors. To a certain degree all the trustee or whoever has to do is show they are not really screwing labor in protecting the creditors. And if they are giving labor what has been openly agreed to in the marketplace a judge isnt going to think that is screwing them. I dont think it is as complicated as you are making it. Nothing in the text you have placed in bold type or elsewhere in what you pasted in makes me think otherwise.

[post="179540"][/post]​

Not so anymore. We gave twice...HARD! LCC's are making more than we are. At least this one is! :down:
LATEST NEWS
July 2, 2004
Southwest flight attendants in line for big raises


The largest pay hikes will be for new flight attendants, who could see their hourly wages rise from $14.67 per hour of air time flown to $33.66 an hour when the contract ends in June 2008.
:48 p.m. July 1, 2004
DALLAS – A tentative labor agreement would give flight attendants at Southwest Airlines an average 31 percent pay raise and put them the among the industry leaders in pay and work rules. The six-year agreement also includes stock options.
The contract would be retroactive to June 1, 2002, if it is ratified by Southwest's 7,400 flight attendants.

______________________________________________________________________
_
US Airways f/a rates of pay:

Longevity Hourly Rate Longevity Hourly Rate
1st year $19.05 8th year 35.47
2nd year 20.14 9th year 36.63
3rd year 21.43 10th year 37.79
4th year 22.03 11th year 38.63
5th year 24.97 12th year 39.53
6th year 32.85 13th year 40.40
7th year 34.61 14th year 41.02

 

[GadgetFreak]

Im certianly not defending management here. I think they are nothing short of fools. I dont think they are out to get you although I sometimes think they are out to get us customers. Im saying that when proposals are made a judge is going to make a decision on them. And the fact that the decision has to be "fair and equitable" will offer little if any protection to anyone but the creditors. Im not having the judge do anything. But management will likely, after some level of negotiation (who knows how serious) come to the judge with a proposed labor contract for various groups. And yes, then the judge will decide whether to do that. And his first thoughts will be to protect the creditors. As long as he feels he is doing that, and the offer isnt really out of line, it will be fair and equitable to him I think. And something that appears to reduce the labor cost to what is available to other carriers just will not seem like an egregious breech to him and he will accept it.

 

[sfb]

U today is telling the judge that it's 'Stage Length & Seat Density Adjusted Mainline Labor CASM' for the 1st half of 2004 is 4.2 cents compared to 3.0, 2.6, 2.6 and 2.0 for WN, HP, B6 and FL, respectively. Show me how you convince a judge that U's labor costs are less or approximate to its competitors?

[post="179597"][/post]​

Well, I think one way you do so is to compare UAIR's labor cost per full-time-equivalent employee to its competitors. If you crunch the numbers in the most recent quarter for LUV (31,408 FTE's and $622 M labor expense) and US Airways, Inc. (i.e. mainline; 26,880 FTE's and $564M labor expense), US Airways' quarterly labor expense per FTE is a bit under $1,200 higher than Southwest's, or roughly 6%. And yet, amazingly, WN's labor CASM is 30% lower than US's. JBLU pays 31% less but has labor CASM that is 38% less. AirTran pays 44% less per employee but manages 52% lower CASM. Delta had 2.4% lower labor CASM in spite of average pay that was 7.3% higher than US Airways.

I think it's also arguable, given US management's very public pronouncements, that the company's most direct competitor is WN. After all, US currently competes directly with B6 on zero non-stop routes (though certain non-stops from FLL will eventually compete with B6) and with FL on 6 non-stop routes from PHL and 2 from PIT. By contrast, WN will soon compete with US on 16 non-stop routes from PHL with 41 daily departures, has supplanted US as the largest carrier in several East Coast markets (like PVD, MHT, ISP, BWI), and unceremoniously kicked US out of its BWI hub. Dave Siegel certainly had no qualms about painting Southwest as US Airways' primary competition.

It'd be interesting if US's pilots, flight attendants, and customer service groups offered to accept the Southwest contracts, though that would have adverse effects on their pensions.