Does the new vote change anything?

[spacewaitress]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 1:44:36 PM Rhino wrote:

Mgmt and unions fiddled while cash burned. Now the cash on hand is pretty much already spoken for. Concessions to date are inadequate to merit a taxpayer-backed capital infusion. UAL's bizplan and revenue projections are unsound.
----------------
[/blockquote]

I don't like it but I agree. At this point I believe BK is the best option for the company. This dilly dallying waiting for the mechanics could be costing this company some valuable assets we'll need for the future.

 

[spacewaitress]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 1:44:36 PM Rhino wrote:

Mgmt and unions fiddled while cash burned. Now the cash on hand is pretty much already spoken for. Concessions to date are inadequate to merit a taxpayer-backed capital infusion. UAL's bizplan and revenue projections are unsound.
----------------
[/blockquote]

I don't like it but I agree. At this point I believe BK is the best option for the company. This dilly dallying waiting for the mechanics could be costing this company some valuable assets we'll need for the future.

 

[will fix for food]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 1:17:10 PM UAL24 wrote:

.............. BK judge will distribute the pain across all groups not just 1 or 2 like some people think.
----------------
[/blockquote]


After reading section 1113 it states:

©

The court shall approve an application for rejection of a collective bargaining agreement only if the court finds that-

(1)

The trustee has, prior to the hearing, made a proposal that fulfills the requirement of subsection (B)(1)

(Meaning make a good faith proposal to modify the CBA in the necessary ways to protect the creditors, debtor, et. al.)

(2)

The authorized representative of the employees has refused to accept such proposal without good cause; and

(3)

The balance of the equities clearly favors rejection of such agreement


After reading this it appears that only work groups that refused to sign a modification to their CBA are eligible to have their contract "rejected" by the bankruptcy judge.

 

[will fix for food]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 1:17:10 PM UAL24 wrote:

.............. BK judge will distribute the pain across all groups not just 1 or 2 like some people think.
----------------
[/blockquote]


After reading section 1113 it states:

©

The court shall approve an application for rejection of a collective bargaining agreement only if the court finds that-

(1)

The trustee has, prior to the hearing, made a proposal that fulfills the requirement of subsection (B)(1)

(Meaning make a good faith proposal to modify the CBA in the necessary ways to protect the creditors, debtor, et. al.)

(2)

The authorized representative of the employees has refused to accept such proposal without good cause; and

(3)

The balance of the equities clearly favors rejection of such agreement


After reading this it appears that only work groups that refused to sign a modification to their CBA are eligible to have their contract "rejected" by the bankruptcy judge.

 

[Tim Thorpe]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 11:59:40 AM fikus wrote:

Does anyone have any predictions on the outcome of the new mechanics vote?

On one hand, there has been plenty of press highlighting the implications of Ch11 and a greater effort to sell the plan to the membership. On the other hand, the people who voted "no" the first time don't seem to care whether UAL is in Ch11 or not, and I also wouldn't think the changes to the second tentative agreement are enough to sway any "no" votes to "yes."

Finally, what about the turnout? Better or worse than the last one? And the 30%+ who didn't vote last time, do you think they vote this time and will that change anything? My gut tells me a lot of the non-votes were implicitly no votes, so maybe if they come out to vote its not a great thing (from the perspective of Ch11).

Any other thoughts on what's going to happen?
----------------
[/blockquote]
I will start with the easy question first. The turnout will be much better. The last vote was the day before Thanksgiving and alot of people were on vacation. Alot of senior people who have alot to lose. Also here in IND the vote is being held on the property. I was shocked when told that. But the full court press is on. I am wondering if holding it on the property will prevent the laid off people from voting as they are not badged to get in?

The changes to the agreement are not much but that may not matter. Alot of people were shocked when the first vote failed. The cold reality of what will happen if it fails again will change some votes.

It may be to close to call but I will predict it will pass. Not by much though. Like I said earlier the full court press is on from both the union and company. We were briefed today that Tilton would even be in town tomorrow. If he is coming to shake hands and kiss babies he is going to be really busy. We have lots of babies.

 

[Tim Thorpe]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 11:59:40 AM fikus wrote:

Does anyone have any predictions on the outcome of the new mechanics vote?

On one hand, there has been plenty of press highlighting the implications of Ch11 and a greater effort to sell the plan to the membership. On the other hand, the people who voted "no" the first time don't seem to care whether UAL is in Ch11 or not, and I also wouldn't think the changes to the second tentative agreement are enough to sway any "no" votes to "yes."

Finally, what about the turnout? Better or worse than the last one? And the 30%+ who didn't vote last time, do you think they vote this time and will that change anything? My gut tells me a lot of the non-votes were implicitly no votes, so maybe if they come out to vote its not a great thing (from the perspective of Ch11).

Any other thoughts on what's going to happen?
----------------
[/blockquote]
I will start with the easy question first. The turnout will be much better. The last vote was the day before Thanksgiving and alot of people were on vacation. Alot of senior people who have alot to lose. Also here in IND the vote is being held on the property. I was shocked when told that. But the full court press is on. I am wondering if holding it on the property will prevent the laid off people from voting as they are not badged to get in?

The changes to the agreement are not much but that may not matter. Alot of people were shocked when the first vote failed. The cold reality of what will happen if it fails again will change some votes.

It may be to close to call but I will predict it will pass. Not by much though. Like I said earlier the full court press is on from both the union and company. We were briefed today that Tilton would even be in town tomorrow. If he is coming to shake hands and kiss babies he is going to be really busy. We have lots of babies.

 

[wts54]

Loan was just rejected

 

[wts54]

Loan was just rejected

 

[Bob Owens]

Some seem to feel that a greater turnout would mean a greater Yes vote. I dont agree. It would be a little easier to guess if we had the count from both of the USAIR votes. So far I've seen where a "No" voter said that he may not vote at all. I would say that such a feeling is common. After waiting 8 years, even with all the threats, its hard to vote away your first decent raise, but its also hard to think that you might lose your job. I suspect that this turnout might even be less, which would probably favor the Yes camp. You have to remember that a lot of these guys just spent the last 4 years or so bitching about thier small paychecks, even though they could look at their ESOP as a little bit of a bright spot. But the ESOP did not make it any easier to pay current bills.I remember one UA guy who was over in our Hangar and he was thrilled with the ESOP (at the time I think UAL was over $90/shr) but he admitted that a lot of the guys were not happy with the whole deal. So now after all that bitching a lot of guys, even guys that secretly hope it passes but would vote No, just wont vote at all. This way they can still #### in the future.

 

[Bob Owens]

Some seem to feel that a greater turnout would mean a greater Yes vote. I dont agree. It would be a little easier to guess if we had the count from both of the USAIR votes. So far I've seen where a "No" voter said that he may not vote at all. I would say that such a feeling is common. After waiting 8 years, even with all the threats, its hard to vote away your first decent raise, but its also hard to think that you might lose your job. I suspect that this turnout might even be less, which would probably favor the Yes camp. You have to remember that a lot of these guys just spent the last 4 years or so bitching about thier small paychecks, even though they could look at their ESOP as a little bit of a bright spot. But the ESOP did not make it any easier to pay current bills.I remember one UA guy who was over in our Hangar and he was thrilled with the ESOP (at the time I think UAL was over $90/shr) but he admitted that a lot of the guys were not happy with the whole deal. So now after all that bitching a lot of guys, even guys that secretly hope it passes but would vote No, just wont vote at all. This way they can still #### in the future.

 

[Segue]

This just buys some more time, at the taxpayers expense. Just because you get a loan, it does not mean all your problems are fixed!

Just get it over and move on.

 

[Segue]

This just buys some more time, at the taxpayers expense. Just because you get a loan, it does not mean all your problems are fixed!

Just get it over and move on.

 

[Bob Owens]

Will fix for food;
Agreements prior to entering BK may not be considered modified. Thus they too would be subject to renegotiation. Actually since all the agreements were contingent upon all workgroups agreeing to concessions there are no new agreements in place at present, plus the ATSB loan guarantee has not been approved. All contracts would then be subject to renegotiation in BK court.

 

[Bob Owens]

Will fix for food;
Agreements prior to entering BK may not be considered modified. Thus they too would be subject to renegotiation. Actually since all the agreements were contingent upon all workgroups agreeing to concessions there are no new agreements in place at present, plus the ATSB loan guarantee has not been approved. All contracts would then be subject to renegotiation in BK court.

 

[Tim Thorpe]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 330 PM Tim Thorpe wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/4/2002 11:59:40 AM fikus wrote:

Does anyone have any predictions on the outcome of the new mechanics vote?

On one hand, there has been plenty of press highlighting the implications of Ch11 and a greater effort to sell the plan to the membership. On the other hand, the people who voted "no" the first time don't seem to care whether UAL is in Ch11 or not, and I also wouldn't think the changes to the second tentative agreement are enough to sway any "no" votes to "yes."

Finally, what about the turnout? Better or worse than the last one? And the 30%+ who didn't vote last time, do you think they vote this time and will that change anything? My gut tells me a lot of the non-votes were implicitly no votes, so maybe if they come out to vote its not a great thing (from the perspective of Ch11).

Any other thoughts on what's going to happen?
----------------
[/blockquote]
I will start with the easy question first. The turnout will be much better. The last vote was the day before Thanksgiving and alot of people were on vacation. Alot of senior people who have alot to lose. Also here in IND the vote is being held on the property. I was shocked when told that. But the full court press is on. I am wondering if holding it on the property will prevent the laid off people from voting as they are not badged to get in?

The changes to the agreement are not much but that may not matter. Alot of people were shocked when the first vote failed. The cold reality of what will happen if it fails again will change some votes.

It may be to close to call but I will predict it will pass. Not by much though. Like I said earlier the full court press is on from both the union and company. We were briefed today that Tilton would even be in town tomorrow. If he is coming to shake hands and kiss babies he is going to be really busy. We have lots of babies.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Did I post that? What a dummy. Just watched the evening news. All bets are off. The thing that bothers me most is that somewhere Osama Bin Laden is smiling ear to ear. Intercourse the terrorist.