Do You Know? Under Amfa!

[Drippy Quill]

Hey Booby...ever think of posting a short post? Your fingers got to have biceps..hahahahahaha...let's see here...I think Drippy vs Delle the femme in 04....will ah have to drink the nectar of you hunters?hahahahahahaha...hey...if ya'll get upset about amfa..you going hunting for another union to adore and call yo own..hahahahaha..possibly...just possibly..it's your own feeble attempt at supporting what ya have that stinks...oh woe is me..I can't change nothing but ma diaper with the TWU...I wanna new do and I want it now...whaaaaaaaaaa...I want an all AMT union..well..almost all AMT..I'll have to let everyone else come and play too...but I'll know they don't really belong and I am stronger in every way...stop...shoot up a flare...bend down and start kissing rings..hahahahahahaha...and Buck...may I call you Buck?..your dues are extorted...you woos..stop paying them...they call 'em voluntary deductions bozo...and you pay due to amfa also...who has no say as your bargaining agent...*tapping on Buck's shoulder*...yoooohooooo....see anything wrong here dummy? Do ya send money to the guy running the mechanic website too?...how about this while ya in the giving mood...send Drippy $$$$$$..I won't give ya anything in return either you loser...hahahahahahaha...hey ...here's a newsflash..the TWU was started by 4 Communists..Irish I believe...so what...they had beliefs and stuck to them ..unlike you amfaboyzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Drippy Quill for President in 2004...please send $$$$$$ to P.O. Box 12345, Old Union Rd,Steelrod, Missouri.

all support will be considered confidential till ya irritate me...then I'll tell Buck...who'll tell Booby...who'll tell amfaboy...hmmmm...scratch that...amfaboy will know already...hahahahahahaha

 

[Buck]

As I stated those dues that are non germaine to collective bargaining are extorted. I have on every occasion possible stopped paying dues. If you would read your contract under Article 38 you will become informed of this process. They are not voluntary and if I were getting representation I would have no problem paying those required. Yes I pay gladly pay my dues to AMFA, who is the bargaining agent for the future of my profession. I know you won't give anything in return you are a TWU supporter, it is common practice to take dues and then negotiate concessions.

 

[Checking it Out]

Bob wrote,

Your accusation that AMFA contracts "opened the door for unlimited low cost maintenance to take our work", makes no sense. None of the airlines that AMFA represented ever was much of a competitor to AA.We do not work under their contract and A&Ps have lost more work at AA than any other airline, the only difference is that the union has maintained its dues base. Push backs, deicing, B-scale, long progressions, employee contributed health benifits, prefunding, no doubletime, no holiday pay are all TWU accomplishments.

The TWU did not achieve either job security or retirement. Thousands were laid off in addition to the cuts and the pension is still underfunded. When was the vote where the members said that those were the two top issues?

TIMCO dictates wages? Then why should we pay dues to the TWU?

If the members dont want McCormick to provide the services it does they can vote them out. How can we vote out you or Little?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob,
You have to have airlines willing to out-source work in order for third party maintenance to have work. Under Amfa at NW, their twisted way of thinking is the scope clause is useless. Under AMFA’s belief they went from 100% down to 38% of labor dollars. With several outs, which NW has used this successfully several times. Reality is NW was farming out 20% when they took over and has increased this dramatically. With the highest percentage of members on layoff in the industry.

Unions have been hit in dues base in the industry, Together collectively we can achieve the rest back when the minority realize they are on a roller coaster ride with Amfa with no place to go but down. Together we can work together to allow AA to show a profit and work collectively to obtain the benefits we gave up to survive out of BK.

Members are laid off and thanks to the TWU membership they have an opportunity to come back, unlike many at other airlines. We kept our maintenance capabilities in tact and if we stand together and work smarter we have an equal chance to bring third party work in-house.

Timco, as long as NW, United, AA and the schools keep turning out Mechanic’s than they will continue to have a pool of experience personal to choose from. And the wages will continue to be lower. Yes, you can go from airline to airline and quit the $30 dollar job to start at $14. That choice has always been there. The majority chooses to allow AA to make a profit so we can maintain a higher wage. Where the others choose to eliminate positions on a permanent basis. It is easy to criticize it is a lot harder to step forward and do something about improving.

We can write on these boards all day long, but what have you accomplished at the end of the day? I have continued to work to bring work in-house and will continue this course. While others tear down, I choose to stand up and make a difference?

Have A Great Day!!!

 

[Hackman]

Hey CIO since you won't answer any of my previous questions, I have one simple one that won't hurt your twu pea-brain too much.

Since the twu is the greatest thing since indoor plumbing, WHEN......with your wise an asute predictions..... WILL BE THE NEXT AIRLINE TO ORGANIZE WITH THE TWU????? Card drives for the twu are in place and going strong, right CIO????

More sweet LIES Posted by CIO on 6/11/2001 on Planebusiness.com

"Hello Everyone;"

"dave the truth hurts! Don't it?"

"The LOA's have been in existance since WE the Membership Voted in the TWU. WE the Membership Voted in the Officers of Our Union. WE the membership Elected Indivduals to Represent our best Interest. WE the Membership has allowed the Brothers and Sisters to do the Best job they Can for US!"


You gotta love this quote " We the membership Elected Individuals to Represent our best Interest" Is that jIM lITTLE, or maybe sUNNY hALL, bOBBY gLESS?????

Or is it "Indivduals" that only the twu International wants??? I guess its not the membership who duly ELECTED Bob Owens or Chuck Shalk, or Dan Cunningham is it CIO?????


Your twu is over CIO, enjoy your last twu days.......... :unsure:

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
Unions have been hit in dues base in the industry, Together collectively we can achieve the rest back when the minority realize they are on a roller coaster ride with Amfa with no place to go but down. Together we can work together to allow AA to show a profit and work collectively to obtain the benefits we gave up to survive out of BK.

Members are laid off and thanks to the TWU membership they have an opportunity to come back, unlike many at other airlines. We kept our maintenance capabilities in tact and if we stand together and work smarter we have an equal chance to bring third party work in-house.

Timco, as long as NW, United, AA and the schools keep turning out Mechanic’s than they will continue to have a pool of experience personal to choose from. And the wages will continue to be lower. Yes, you can go from airline to airline and quit the $30 dollar job to start at $14. That choice has always been there. The majority chooses to allow AA to make a profit so we can maintain a higher wage. Where the others choose to eliminate positions on a permanent basis. It is easy to criticize it is a lot harder to step forward and do something about improving.

We can write on these boards all day long, but what have you accomplished at the end of the day? I have continued to work to bring work in-house and will continue this course. While others tear down, I choose to stand up and make a difference?

Have A Great Day!!!

The roller coaster ride that AMFA put us on was the raise we got in 2001 that was the direct result of the AMFA NWA contract.

The fact is that AMFA brought the wage up to $35/hr. If it was the TWU that brought the wage up then how come all the other work groups represented by the TWU did not get as big of a percentage raise as the mechanics?

Our 20 year "ride" with the TWU has been a constant decline, with the AMFA bump the exception of course. After 20 years of chances why should we continue to stick with the TWU and its failed policies?

What exactly did YOU give up CIO? You talk like management. "We" as in all of us when only some of us have made sacrifices.

As you know I have stepped forward. The criticism you recieve is warranted. What exactly have you done to make "improvements"? Underbidding is not what union members want from their unions. The whole idea is that through solidarity we can acheive higher wages and more benifits, you got us the opposite, without even trying to lead a fight. The company demanded $610 million and you got them every penny of it!! How is that negotiating? Because they let us figure out how to give it to them? When is the last time the company ever gave any union exactly what they were asking for?

As an A&P mechanic I would like to know if anything that you have done increases the bargaining power of my liscence?

If increasing the bargaining power of our liscences is not your objective then why are we wrong to want to have a union that does have that as its objective? Most A&P mechanics never heard of the TWU and made their investment towards their liscence on their own. What exactly do A&P mechanics owe the TWU? Is Craft Unionism evil? Then you better get out of the AFL-CIO because a large number of the unions in the AFL-CIO are craft unions. Why are mechanics wrong to want what the pilots have?

The day is not over but I feel that Ive been a part of accomplishing something. For one I've been able to expose you, Sonny and Little for what you are, or more importantly are not-effective leaders. I gave reforming the TWU my best shot, and I was removed because of it. I wanted to do something that would help all airline workers but the greedy TWU saw it as a threat.


"While others tear down, I choose to stand up and make a difference?"

Well you used the right punctuation. (?)
Yes you no doubt have "made a difference", for the worse that is, and you collected your six figures for doing it. Actually Jim chose you, not the members and therin lies one of the biggest problems with the TWU. Your alternative was to work for half the pay you are getting now so dont try to put it off like you are some altrustic union idealist.

 

[Radman]

we can achieve the rest back when the minority realize they are on a roller coaster ride with Amfa with no place to go but down. Together we can work together to allow AA to show a profit and work collectively to obtain the benefits we gave up to survive out of BK.

Members are laid off and thanks to the TWU membership they have an opportunity to come back, unlike many at other airlines. We kept our maintenance capabilities in tact and if we stand together and work smarter we have an equal chance to bring third party work in-house.

CIO,
Roller coaster ride with AMFA. I guess you still have not learned from the other boards you have lied on in the past and present.
The only reason you HAD :angry: the wages you enjoyed for a little while is because of AMFA and the technicians at NW. The NW contract has penalties if the farm outs go above 38% and the twu contract just states that the items being farmed out are to be discussed with the union (no penalties or limits). We also have that wonderful phrase "Nothing in this article will guarantee the current volume of work" in our SCOPE clause in the contract.
I can't believe you brought up layoffs! :blink: The twu didn't even put up a fight, they just let the company lay-off and even put it in writing in the pos contract. Not only that but now there are more layoffs posted on the union bulletin board and just below it a solicitation to support immigrant workers in a rally here in Tulsa . That seems to be a conflict of interests don't you think. At least AMFA is fighting to get the jobs lost due to lay-off back through the arbitration process. The twu cant because as I said they agreed to them in the contract (so in effect gave up all right to dispute).
You also stated that the twu has a chance to bring work back in house: well you know what is really funny about that one is that so does AMFA. They as you well know have won the Portland Arbitration.

 

[Radman]

Hey cio, h34r: h34r:
Are you posting while on UB? It is funny how people like you have to be paid to do this but people who really believe in what they do don't need to be on UB. By the way there is nothing you twu lackeys can do to stop us now. AMFA IN 2004 .

 

[scorpian]

CIO

you've been thoroughly spanked again so isnt it time for you to bail out and start a new topic??? Cant wait to see what your next one will be.

HAVE AN AMFA DAY CIO

 

[Checking it Out]

Dave wrote;
What year did you say I would have a vote for any International Union Officer under the TWU?

CAN YOU SAY .... NEVER?

You have alot of nerve using issues that your own union never allows in the first place.

Where did they teach you that method of defending your union
-----------------------------------------------------------

I believe I posted for you to defend your point on Amfa, Lets see you point out the good points!

Please explain what part of my post is a lie? If you read all the posts no one is stepping up to the plate and actually showing where they can justify having no vote tell 2008, or how I arrived to that point?

The TWU convention is in 2005, Your local thru the convention delegates will have an oppurtunity to run a member for office and change the Constitution.

Lets see you or anyone else step up to the plate? I have and will continue to improve the Class and Craft at AA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Under AMFA the members can start a recall drive at any time that has the weight of the Constitution behind it.

Under AMFA members vote directly for officers.

Under the TWU there is no mechanism in place for members to have a direct say as to who controls this Union.

Under the TWU members do not even have the right to know how their delegates vote.

Under the TWU votes at the Convention are not recorded accurately or precisely.

Only one union offers us direct Democracy and accountability-AMFA

The TWU represents workers in many different industries. According to the SEIU this results in inferior representation because by being so spread out the organization lacks the ability to focus on the issues that are particular to certain groups of workers. We are not all clones. While there are issues that are common to all workers in all industries there are issues that are unique to workers as well. For those issues that are common to all workers we have the AFL-CIO. What workers need is to have unions that are able to be more focused on their craft or their industry.

The current structure of the TWU,IAM,IBT, the three major AFL-CIO unions, leaves the airline industry split up between three unions that are not focused on our industry. As a result this industry, despite many years of record profits in between a few money losing years and continued expansion, has seen the real earnings of its workforce decline even more rapidly than the rest of the economy.

To put it bluntly-IT AINT WORKING!

When I discussed these points with someone I know from the AFL-CIO that person even said that its unlikely that the three unions would get together and merge their ATDS. That person even admitted that the current structure is failing us. That person from the AFL-CIO even admitted that we would be better off trying to go with AMFA then go back into the AFL-CIO as a mechanics union and that the other workers should follow suit because these unions would never willingly give up the dues base plus the political power that having airline workers provides. That if we are to acheive real solidarity as an industry this is the only path. We have to go out seperately then we can come back in as one.

As you even admit, what other companies pay their maint workers has a direct effect on what we get paid. In other words whether we like it or not what the third party providers and other airlines pay their workers will affect what we will get. Our affiliation with other work groups in the same company does not have as much of an affect on our pay what other companies pay their mechanics. Once again I will cite the fact that following the AMFA contract at NWA we got a much larger raise than the other TWU represented workgroups. So our affiliation with other workgroups in the same company does not produce any advantages or in this case disadvantages as far as our pay rates.

So the answer is clear, since as a class and craft we are all affected as one, then we should all try to act as one, the first step towards that is to get all the mechanics in one union. Only one union offers that goal as an option-AMFA.

The CIO strategy of competeing with everyone else by underbidding them does not help us. AFL-CIO affiliated unions can not raid each other, but they can compete, and by competeing it helps the airlines, not us. This competition puts us in a race to the bottom. We have seen where our union leaders(?)have formed alliances to get Federal Aid for the Airlines, we have seen them do the same thing for pay cuts but we have never seen then do the same thing for pay raises. In fact Jim Little was upset that we supported APFA flight attendants by walking in their picket lines. He did not want us to do it. Since they cant take each others members by enticing the members by getting better contracts than the other unions they try to take each others members by putting the other unions airlines out of business. They do this by selling out their members. They can do this because under the RLA they are guaranteed to get their dues and they know that decertification drives are hard to do since the workforce is so geoghaphically dispersed. There is no real incentive for any of these unions to fight for their members since they are pretty much captive. Up until recently mechanics were the only ones that had an option, however now we see other workgroups trying to form their own unions also. I wish them success and the best of luck. I also feel that if we get AMFA we should assist them.

The sad fact is that the combined effects of no-raid, the RLA and a structure within the unions that removes accountability and isolates the members from controlling their unions has produced a situation where its much easier for these unions to try to sell concessions to their workers, in the hopes that the concessions will lead to growth, and more dues, than to fight, engage in strikes, fight the courts and take other actions that will improve the members lives. These unions will engage in non-confrontational efforts such as lobbying and other safe, inexpensive efforts in the members behalf but we could never count on them to take decisive measures in our behalf, after all they are not going to risk the instutution, and the treasury, on just one group of workers in one industry when they represent many different workers in many industries.

These unions have been speaking out of both sides. One the one hand they claim that we must work for less because of the fact that other, often also unionized, workers work for less and we have to save "our" company. In other words saying that our wages in effect are beyond our collective control. Then they will turn around and tout the benefits of Solidarity. Well if those other workers are affecting our pay then how can we ever have Solidarity without getting them into the same organization as us? "Oh well they are IAM and we cant raid".

The recent mailer from Jim Little touts AFL-CIO affiliation. However over the last three years Jim has sent me several E-mails complaining about the organizations lack of effectiveness. So what is the AFL-CIO, a huge assett that is so great that we should stay in such a lousy union just to be affiliated or as Jim Little said an ineffective unresponsive organization?

The fact is that Little was using the AFL-CIO as a cop-out for his own lack of action. That has always been his specialty, defer blame. Jim was simply taking advantage of a common misconception of what the AFL-CIO is.

The AFL-CIO is a faciliator. Is provides a forum for unions to combine and focus their efforts mainly in the political arena. It can not dictate to its members unions on internal issues. Unlike us, member unions can opt-out of the AFL-CIO any time they want. Even with its limited scope the AFL-CIO can, in the hands of the right union, be a valuable tool or in the case of the wrong union, be something to blame.

Our union contines to subtly promote the common misconception of what the AFL-CIO is.

Our union continues to promote many misconceptions as a means of deferring blame for its 20 year history of being the industry leader in concessions. The fact is that every concession that was brought forth and voted in was voted in after the International invested money in selling those concessions to the members. The fact is that the International never even tried to promote resisting concessions. The fact is that through these concessions the overall TWU/AA mnembership has tripled.

The fact is that this union will not give members the accountability that we deserve.

Only one union out there offers us true, direct accountability- AMFA

Only one union out there has the goal of organizing all mechanics under one organization-AMFA

Only one union out there offers us the opportunity to belong to an organization that is focused on our industry-AMFA

After 20 years of concessions it should be clear the the current structure is failing and our leaders have no intentions on real reform.

Only one union out there offers us the chance for a better future-AMFA.





CIO;
What exactly have you done to improve the Class and Craft?

How much do you make doing that? How much would you be making on the floor?

In a way you are helping to improve the Class & Craft by exposing the TWU and its twisted way of thinking.

 

[Drippy Quill]

Booby...get on the phone and call C/O will ya...your longwinded posts hurt ma brain...to much input.....hahahahahahahahaha...hey Booby...was TWU really that bad when ya ran for office...you da man I want to follow...hahahahahahahaha...hey..if AMFA got me NW's $$$$$$ does that mean I get to spend it on furlough status like them....hahahahahahaha...oooopsy dopey...that where it stops being AMFA and returns to the TWU fault huh biggin....and Booby...did I read you was getting your real estate licenses?...hahahahahaha...truth being Booby...ya can't admit defeat of your principles and integrity...ya a follower Booby...but that OK...just do me a really big favor Booby and STOP protecting ma future and livlihood..I skeeeeered I won't get to appreciate it from the street.

 

[Dr. Freud]

Herr Drippy, if you have not read my post on "Amfa sues to get fuelers,"
zen I implore you to get psychological help. There is hope for you, you know. Modern psychiatry has come a long vay but you must take ze first step!
Auf weidersehen, Herr Quill :unsure:

 

[Checking it Out]

Bob,wrote;without even trying to lead a fight. The company demanded $610 million and you got them every penny of it!! How is that negotiating? Because they let us figure out how to give it to them? When is the last time the company ever gave any union exactly what they were asking for?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob, you make it sound as if I did it all? You have the same power as I, one vote. I made my decision based on the documentation that was supplied by all the resources available at the time. Specialist were retained and everyone said the same thing. The membership voted to except the agreement.

At what cost is Amfa increasing the power of your license? If they had any power they would be threatening to strike over the members on layoff at NW, instead they are putting the eggs in one basket and have shoved them under a rock.

It would be nice to collect 6 figures from AA but that is not the case, you make more for many years. Only difference is, I have paid out of my own pocket to purchase the computer and have written the majority of the time on these boards on my own time. I believe in what I am doing and know corporate Amfa is not the way to go, If nothing else the power you will be losing and the amount of layoffs at the airline Amfa is representing should make you think about the reasons you are supporting them. Jim did not choose me to do anything! I made the commitment to participate on my own. I think you are a little confused who I might be?

When a leader fails to represent the members as several have done in the past, they need to be man enough to step aside and allow someone else to continue. In your case you were so ate up in not believing you lost sight of why you took the oath to help the membership. You and others in an elected position at one time should have stepped up and supported the institution you took an oath to uphold. Instead you choose to degrade the institute and blame everyone else. It is the responsibility of a president or treasurer to portray an image. And do the right thing even though you did not agree with a decission.. It is easy to blame the International; you know many will still blame the amfa national if they were to win an election, when in reality the only person to blame is yourself.

Look at the difference in Tulsa vs. AFW or JFK? In Tulsa the TWU leadership takes the lead in the decision-making and takes the lead IN THE FAILURES. Unlike The other two stations, they take credit where credit is due and blame someone else when it fails. The card count shows this. And it is evident no matter where you go in the system, the Local is only as good as the leaders, and the members allow them to be. You know As well as I do if you have a weak President or even a shop steward for that fact, Amfa is successful at getting cards signed. I have seen this in areas thru-out the Tulsa base. It's interesting watching the movement of personal. It has always been a known fact in hanger 3 certain docks were hard Amfa supporters, now the members have moved around, the support has diminished in hanger 3 and increased in the Cam Building. Andthe membership signing cards has diminished greatly. Even though we have a weak President. The other officers and members have stepped up and taken up the slack. That is because the members believe in what they are doing. And not everyone is going to agree on everything all the time.

Amfa is not the way to go and I believe you understand this, amfa has to many what ifs and AA membership will suffer greatly in the short term.

 

[Rusty]

At what cost is Amfa increasing the power of your license? If they had any power they would be threatening to strike over the members on layoff at NW, instead they are putting the eggs in one basket and have shoved them under a rock.

CIO, nothing good in life comes easy and there is a cost for everything. Our forefathers formed this independent nation at a cost and it was not easy. Unions were formed at a cost and lives were also lost. There is no doubt that kicking out the TWU is going to cost something somewhere. If life was as simple as you seem to think it is, we would be able to snap our fingers and POOF the TWU would be gone and AMFA would be in but, that is not the case. All good things take time and energy!!! That is the cost.

The TWU has layoffs here at AA and I don't see any strike rally here, why would you think NW would want to strike? The industry has its ups and downs, when down there are layoffs and in when up, companies hire back and even expand. It's actually a simple but factual thing companies go through. If you mean they should be talking about concessions, there is no reason for them to strike, they didn't take concessions!!!

We have over 3000 TWU members laid off here at AA and I find it interesting you are not working to get them back; instead you seem to be worrying more about NW laid off people. Very interesting!!!

It would be nice to collect 6 figures from AA but that is not the case, you make more for many years. Only difference is, I have paid out of my own pocket to purchase the computer and have written the majority of the time on these boards on my own time. I believe in what I am doing and know corporate Amfa is not the way to go, If nothing else the power you will be losing and the amount of layoffs at the airline Amfa is representing should make you think about the reasons you are supporting them. Jim did not choose me to do anything! I made the commitment to participate on my own. I think you are a little confused who I might be?

CIO sniveling about having to pay for your own computer to be able to post on these boards and that part of the time is your time, is not very becoming of you. The rest of the time you post on them using UB (union business) time. Seems like a small price to pay if you believe in what you are doing. AMFA supporters have paid for their computers also and they use their own time to come here to educate you and others.

CIO, you know AMFA is not the way to go, yet you have no idea why the TWU is the way to go. Maybe you need to see somebody about your inability for vision. AMFA is a democratic union with total accountability just to start but, because you do not have vision, no one can get through to you. Of course it might also be because you are paid good money to say what you say!!!

Look at the difference in Tulsa vs. AFW or JFK? In Tulsa the TWU leadership takes the lead in the decision-making and takes the lead IN THE FAILURES. Unlike The other two stations, they take credit where credit is due and blame someone else when it fails. The card count shows this. And it is evident no matter where you go in the system, the Local is only as good as the leaders, and the members allow them to be. You know As well as I do if you have a weak President or even a shop steward for that fact, Amfa is successful at getting cards signed. I have seen this in areas thru-out the Tulsa base. It's interesting watching the movement of personal. It has always been a known fact in hanger 3 certain docks were hard Amfa supporters, now the members have moved around, the support has diminished in hanger 3 and increased in the Cam Building. Andthe membership signing cards has diminished greatly. Even though we have a weak President. The other officers and members have stepped up and taken up the slack. That is because the members believe in what they are doing. And not everyone is going to agree on everything all the time

We have separate locals but, to start accusing other locals of failure is a divisional view and will only divide the membership. Like it or not other locals are part of the membership. Maybe this is part of your goal and vision. Ooops I forgot, sorry!! Maybe you are tooting your own horn, kind of hard to tell actually but at least you admit: "In Tulsa the TWU leadership takes the lead in the decision-making and takes the lead IN THE FAILURES."

If the decision-making in Tulsa takes the lead IN THE FAILURE why not change?

It is a lot easier for a shop steward to just go along with the TWU than it is to stand up for what he knows is better for the membership. Your argument that it is easier to sign a card has no merit!!!

 

[j7915]

As I stated those dues that are non germaine to collective bargaining are extorted. I have on every occasion possible stopped paying dues. If you would read your contract under Article 38 you will become informed of this process. They are not voluntary and if I were getting representation I would have no problem paying those required. Yes I pay gladly pay my dues to AMFA, who is the bargaining agent for the future of my profession. I know you won't give anything in return you are a TWU supporter, it is common practice to take dues and then negotiate concessions.

Buck, just what would germaine spending be? I won't ask you for the other as the list will probably overload my hard drive.