DL expands SEA further with SEA-SFO flights

[Kev3188]

Yes, sir, it is about you.

No, it isn't.

It's about you totally misreading an offhand comment from someone, and refusing to admit it. The rest of the ensuing faux outrage is nothing more than white noise meant to distract from that...

More specifically, it is about the constant complaining about DL that has characterized your posts as well as those of a few others on this forum for about five years.

This thread is "specifically" about route expansion in SEA, and (now) about contraction at SFO. You should know that, since you're the OP. But in case you forget, you can tell by reading the headline at the top of the page.

Whether or not you have a problem with what I write elsewhere is irrelevant to that- all the more so, since NONE of the points you listed have yet to appear in this thread by anyone but you.

Once again what might have been an interesting topic has been ruined by your insistence on bulldozing through it. So, yeah, thanks for that...

Maybe Q's right, and it'd be better to just stop trying to post in here. You can have your own little sandbox all to yourself... Yay!

 

[robbedagain]

does sea have the type of population to support asia flights and european flights compared to say ny nj california etc

i thought may be sfo would actually be better serving nrt route compared to say sea given that both ana and ual both operate the 787 into sea from nrt

 

[LD3]

And don't you dare think about the good old days....

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
You either miss the point or refuse to accept that in isolation your point would be valid. But after 6850 posts for you and 1564 for Q and 20 gazillion for 700, nothing you or I or them writes here is in isolation or without context.

I have consistently said that I welcome healthy debate but I will not allow anyone to unilaterally hammer away at an issue without providing balance.

No one is telling you that you need to walk away from the board but I will not allow you and the pro-labor camp to reduce this forum to a platform for bashing DL while touting the virtues of labor using one-sided arguments.

I made clear before and I will say again that the reason why I cut off Q's nostalgia run is because the pro-labor camp on here has used DL's shutdown of the freighter operation to push its agenda in the past. You lost the ability to reminisce over that part of history because you have attached to it your pro-labor/anti-DL agenda. As much as you would like to argue that Q's post was harmless, it was anything but.

You have had multiple opportunity to provide a balanced perspective on issues that are discussed on here but you have consistently refused to do so.

I am not telling you to leave but we can certainly find other people who can be objective if you can't.

Moses waited 40 years for a generation of people to die off and a new group to grow up in the desert before moving into the Promised Land.

I would far rather not sit around waiting for anyone to leave but instead to figure out how to build a diverse community that is based on fair and honest communication.

But I am perfectly capable of sticking around at least as long as Moses if need be.

Robbed,

As much as you and others want to argue that DL could gain higher revenues in larger cities, the simple fact is that is not true. DL's revenues in its medium sized hubs are higher than other carriers are from hubs in large cities. DL's revenues from DTW and MSP are higher than from ORD on other AA or UA. There are other examples for other airlines as well.
Not only are DL's yields from DTW and MSP higher than UA and AA's at ORD but DL's overall revenue is also higher. DL controls a much higher percentage of the market in its largest hubs than other carriers do in their hubs.

The largest markets are also the most competitive. DL has learned that it is better off building hubs in less competitive cities than to try to compete against other carriers in the largest but most competitive cities.
The exception to that rule is NYC which is slot controlled and where DL has a structural and size advantage that other carriers cannot match. Because size matters in the airline industry (that is the basis for the AA/US merger), DL is able to command revenue premiums compared to other carriers in LGA/JFK that are now approaching what CO has from EWR.

SEA is also the closet city to Asia from the continental US. DL is able to use 767s to develop new markets just as CO used 757s to develop markets from EWR. Now that DL has seen that SEA has the potential to support significant

CO succeeded at growing EWR to the size it became because neither AA or DL showed any interest in moving outside of their niches in NYC.
DL is now the largest domestic airline from NYC and is a strong #2 in int'l markets.

UA has succeeded on the west coast -Asia because no one challenged them with a true west coast hub.

SEA was available. LAX is too far south to be a west coast hub. Check back in a couple years and see where DL is at that point relative to its peers but I think you will see that DL will have managed to build SEA into a true west coast hub as well as have a significant presence from other cities, including LAX.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT
How about three positive statements from you, individually or collectively,
about American, United and US Airways.

I'd be happy too... I've said each of these things before but will say them again.

AA
AA has a strong and historic presence in many of the key markets in the US and still has enormous brand loyalty.
AA has access to some of the top global markets including an advantage position at LHR and Latin America, including a presence from the top gateways to those regions.
AA has executed a strong turnaround esp. around their operation which recovered far faster than UA's from operational problems.

UA
UA's network was built internally and thru mergers around some of the strongest markets including the big three of NYC, CHI, and LA. UA has a well-developed route system and at least a decent presence in every global region.
UA has strong corporate contract presence and has managed to regain some of what it has lost because of its operational problems.
UA has figured out how to avoid the crippling labor problems that have been impediments to other mergers.

US
US has done a very fine job of coming out of its two BKs and attaining strong profitability.
US has identified key niche markets that it has built its network around and has managed to successfully defend those markets.
US has managed to keep labor happy.

Wasn't hard and completely lines up with what I have said before.

I'd like to see the same three about DL from you, Kev, and Q.

 

[WorldTraveler]

looks like DL and UA are escalating this into other markets.

KLM is increasing IAH-AMS service from 7 to 9 weekly as of next summer.

UA is adding ATL-SFO 2X daily but the flights won't connect well to UA's Pacific operation which means WN will be largely connecting in the local ATL-SFO market.

UA is also adding LAX-MSP 2X daily with CR7s.

In the most recently reported quarter, UA's mainline cost ex-fuel and specials was 7.6% higher than DL's while consolidated CASM on the same basis was 4.6% higher and DL's costs are expected to decrease over the next few months as CRJs leave and 717s and 739s enter the fleet in fairly large numbers.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who can sustain a competitive incursion better.

The west coast is about ready to get quite interesting.

 

[Kev3188]

And don't you dare think about the good old days....

And God help the person that dares comment on them...

 

[Kev3188]

I have consistently said that I welcome healthy debate but I will not allow anyone to unilaterally hammer away at an issue without providing balance.

Last time: No one but you was debating a damn thing. No one. And the only one "hammering away" at anything in this thread is you, with your bizarre attempt to gin up some sort of controversy regarding NW's 74F's.

You have taken simple comment and trying to gin up some sort of persecution. A "healthy" board is more than "debate;" It's comments, ideas, memories, and more. You do not get to control the narrative, yet keep trying to do so. It's pathetic, and like always this board is worse for it.

 

[robbedagain]

Wt I am not arguing bout dl I was simply asking or questioning the sea to asia I already knew it was closet to asia but I was questioning the pop to support it. As for us' labor being happy....rethink that one. I dont knw tooo many folks that are happy to have sh!++y ch 11 contracts.. certainly not me.

 

[737823]

Wt I am not arguing bout dl I was simply asking or questioning the sea to asia I already knew it was closet to asia but I was questioning the pop to support it. As for us' labor being happy....rethink that one. I dont knw tooo many folks that are happy to have sh!++y ch 11 contracts.. certainly not me.

Robbed I don't think population has to do with it as much as DL is exploiting an opportunity to build a gateway in SEA that leverages the feed from partner (AS) and new DL flying. Obviously LAX and SFO have larger populations and larger overall market but that's not to say opportunities don't exist in SEA. It may turnout to be a poor experiment who knows. I'm sure DL has their own internal KPIs and expectations of the SEA operation and will make any necessary adjustments, like they did for KIX.

Josh

 

[737823]

Seriously hasn't DL embraced many elements from the NWA side? Operating older overhauled aircraft, management from NWA, many internal systems are legacy NWA. The DL brand prevailed as it was a stronger and better known franchise in many parts of the world. Would you all feel better if DL left an A320 in NWA livery like US does for their legacy carriers?

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thank you again, Kev, for your response.

Debate and healthy discussion is exactly what this board should be about; there is complete agreement between us about that point.

I am not saying that I set the agenda of this board. However, I am saying that when the discussion turns to topics that have been contentious and unbalanced topics regarding labor relations and DL in the past, I will not stand by without responding.

The simple fact is that guilt for the shutdown of the freighter operation has been laid at the feet of Delta by labor proponents and that is why I cut off the discussion from a pro-labor part of the DL contingent, even if that wasn’t the intention of what was written. That well has been poisoned and the pro-labor contingent has to prove to me those waters are safe to drink before that topic is floated again.
Please note that other than capacity-related questions, I have no problem with discussing what aircraft have been used on SFO-NRT or in discussing the NRT hub as a whole because those topics have not been attached to the pro-labor agenda.

The easiest way for you (meaning the pro-labor which has usually meant anti-DL group) to start removing things from the list of topics that evoke a response from me is to acknowledge that there is validity to my points, including that the freighter operation was financially no longer viable long before the merger due to the high operating costs of the 742s, the rapid increase in fuel prices which made the industry less profitable overall, and the generally weak global economy at the time of the merger which reduced cargo shipments for all carriers. The fact that other carriers who were using newer aircraft than NW also reduced their all-cargo operations indicates the problem wasn’t entirely because of the 742s but the older aircraft made NW particularly vulnerable.

It is that sort of balance that should be a part of this and other topics, and lacking it, this board becomes one heated discussion after another.

Instead of walking away from the forum, how about you hold yourself – including allow others to hold you accountable - to the same standards that you want to hold others to.
- Debate regarding principles and facts, not emotion. You are asking that on the UA IAM discussion, why not here?
- Make sure the charges you level against DL can be defended compared to what unions have achieved at other airlines.
- Acknowledge when you have over reached in your arguments and be willing to apologize, something you seem to expect others to do yet I never see any of the pro-labor supporters on the DL forum do.

This thread would still be going on as a trip thru yesteryear if you had been willing to accept that the freighter operation was no longer viable at the time of the merger, leaving DL to shut it down. Thus, it is grossly inaccurate to attempt to use it for any pro-labor point.

I enjoy your posts, Kev, and I want you and Q and 700 and everyone else to participate on this forum. But I can’t allow you to live by a standard that is different from what you hold others to. The standard you hold others to includes the same balanced perspective that I expect of the pro-labor DL contingent.
Let’s also be very clear that I do not at all see pro-labor as also being capable of being pro-company, a point you have made many times, Kev. Yet, there is virtually no one who would come to the conclusion that you are pro-DL based on what you have posted here. Thus, my challenge remains that if you are really pro-DL as well as pro-labor, then it shouldn’t be too hard for you to find positive things to say about DL. And if you are pro-labor and anti-DL, then you shouldn’t be surprised when you meet a lot of resistance both here and with your fellow employees, many of whom are loyal to the company.

Robbed,
You are right that is subjective to say that any employee group is happy. Instead, in the case of US, it would be more accurate to say that US mgmt has been able to ensure its operations are not affected by labor issues which may or may not be occurring below the surface.

As for SEA, yes it is a smaller city than LAX and SFO, but the goal is not to choose a city that is so large that there is room for a bunch of competitors but one that is big enough for DL to build a gateway to Asia that will serve many of the same cities that UA serves from SFO, the only other large west coast-Asia gateway among US carriers. Given that DL’s strategy is to use the smallest aircraft that can possibly be used and DL is ensuring that it will have feed either from the AS partnership or via flights under its own control (DL metal or Delta Connection), then the local market can be a lot smaller and still have a very viable gateway. Remember that ATL is a relatively small international market compared to other US cities but supports the second largest single carrier int’l operation in the US behind UA at EWR. Unlike NYC which is highly competitive, the vast majority of int’l flights and passengers from ATL and the SE, local or connecting, are on DL aircraft. That is the kind of model that DL wants to build in SEA to Asia.

Those who underestimate what DL can do on the west coast need only look at what they have done in NYC over the past five years in a far more competitive and far larger market.

The top up order for relatively large 333s would not have been placed and routes would not continue to be added if there were not high expectations for the SEA hub and considerable satisfaction with what the gateway/hub is doing today.

Josh,
Actually not all of the statements that you made about “equality” in the merger are totally true – to one way or the other. But it would only further the “us vs them” mindset to dive into those differences and try to argue for PMDL vs PMNW.

The simple reality is that DL pulled off the best merger with the best merger partner with each side bringing enormously valuable assets, people, and processes to the merger. There is no debate that the strengths that are DL’s today can be attributed to one side or the other, any more than a child can be said to be exclusively from one natural parent or the other.

No one, esp. me, has ever doubted what NW has brought to the table nor have I ever failed to acknowledge the rich history that NW has had. But NW’s history “as a single” starts to fade into the experiences that “the couple” creates on their own. Healthy couples who have been married for 10, 20, or more years don’t keep recounting their strengths and experiences as singles over what they have experienced together. That doesn’t mean one’s single days don’t exist or can’t be recounted but continuing to dwell on them at the expense of the joint experience is indicative of deep problems.

Notably, the vast majority of DL employees – and remember that the majority of DL employees were not originally hired by DL - don’t keep recounting the strengths of their original employer but instead focus on the here and now.

 

[blue collar]

Your family must be happy for airlineforums, so they don't have to hear you blather on about DL. Just the never ending tap of the keys on your keyboard.

 

[WorldTraveler]

perhaps it would be equally appropriate to say the same thing about others who talk about other topics, many of whom have far more posts than I do

And your contribution to the topic is ....?

 

[LD3]

Wow. SFO-NRT was a staple for NWA. We had that and the freighter operation for a very long time. Sad to see that pair gone. That flight was always full.

Does that mean the crew base is gone also, or has that already been eliminated?

Lets revisit Q's post....I see nothing knocking DL, I see nothing relating to labor....I see someone looking back on the past remembering the good days... Asking a simple question about the crew base..No harm, no foul...What the hell is wrong with that??