DL charges $2800 in bag fees to returning GIs

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

WT: This bag fee fiasco is not about following rules but more about common sense, right vs wrong, good judgement. It wasn't a group of college kids that checked too many bags and are now complaining. These were GIs. Try to use some of your intelligence to read beyond the DL press releases.

 

[skinvalve]

CO to SGT: "Hey sgt the unit is deploying next month, call the airlines and find out how many howitzers we can fit in the cargo bin, we'll take the mortars in our carry ons."

 

[WorldTraveler]

exactly as I predicted, FWAAA. Now you have AA and DL in a competitive battle to make sure neither receives this kind of bad press again.
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And yes it was the immaturity of those soldiers who can't quite understand that there are limits in life - and the US Defense Dept. has to abide by them as well.
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Frugal,
again, you somehow expect that the frontline agents should just cave in to the soldier's requests to check whatever they want... rendering mute whatever rules the carriers establish.
Common sense is recognizing that there are rules, that any large organization has to have some control over what is being done by its agents and that if the US government wants to have its soliders carry that much baggage/weapons... they need to coordinate it with the airlines and properly communicate it to their personnel.
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While you and others want to portray DL as the loser, it is the American public that will be forced to pay higher fares to compensate for the increased baggage costs incurred by the airlines have for providing baggage allowances well beyond what should be reasonable... and I can assure you that military and government fares are far cheaper than what those carriers could get carrying "private passengers".

This, IIRC, is the season for bidding on military/government business. I fully expect that there are discussions already going on in airline headquarters saying that they aren't as interested in this business, esp. in light of the capacity cuts which are generally being seen in the industry.

 

[emmatabbycat]

"There was no error on DL's part. Their agent apparently enforced the rules which DL had set."

Well now, lets see how this has played out.

So one morning you are at work at the check in counter at Delta and here comes a group of 30 or so military folks. They have a ton of baggage and their orders say up to four bags per person. Delta's policy is 3 bags for free and then start charging. The employee realizes that there is a discrepancy between company policy (3 bags for free) and what the 30+ customers believed the policy to be (4 bags for free). Now there are a couple of options. 1) Stick to policy and charge for the extra bags. 2) Make a decision (or get a supervisor to make a decision) and tell the customers that while the policy is 3 bags, Delta will waive the charges for the extra bags and, WELCOME HOME AND THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE.

If option 2 had been selected, Delta would not have collected $2800.

Instead, option 1 was selected and Delta got their $2800 and about 2 million dollars worth of bad PR. They may or may not refund the 2800 bucks and they may have changed the policy but people will remember for a very long time the negative aspect of this incident. The person that made the decision to charge for the extra bags gets an A+ for following company policy but should get an F for lack of common sense and should get a boot in the butt for just being stupid. Come on, it's one thing to treat an individual customer like crap but a group of 30+ soldiers flying home FROM A WAR?

So, has this incident worked out in Delta's favor? Nope. So there was an error on Delta's part. Probably several. They charged for the bags and had the backlash to deal with. The front line person that made the decision either has no common sense or Delta doesn't empower their front line folks to make good customer service decisions. Either way, ERROR.

 

[WorldTraveler]

But you are making an assumption that the soliders had orders which said they were entitled to check 4 bags and that they showed such to the DL agents.
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It is possible that the DL agents followed the letter of what DL had said in policy and that it did not agree with what was specifically stated in the DOT orders....
I don't know the specifics and you don't either.
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What is true is that there were people who tried to turn this into a "bad DL" experience and that FWAAA posted what anyone knows to be the case with any passengers - and that there are procedures in place for reimbursement... and for resolution of the situation.
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Instead you got a couple of testosterone laden GIs who decided they would take matters into their own hands....and instead have only resulted in a further increase in baggage allowances for military passengers - whether it should have occurred to match what the DOD agreed to w/ the airlines - or because the airlines or afraid of ticking anyone else off.
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Rather than focus on speculation about what MIGHT have happened, it seems more prudent to focus on the impact - which will be a shfit in costs from the government to private travelers.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Frugal,
again, you somehow expect that the frontline agents should just cave in to the soldier's requests to check whatever they want... rendering mute whatever rules the carriers establish.
Common sense is recognizing that there are rules, that any large organization has to have some control over what is being done by its agents and that if the US government wants to have its soliders carry that much baggage/weapons... they need to coordinate it with the airlines and properly communicate it to their personnel.
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While you and others want to portray DL as the loser, it is the American public that will be forced to pay higher fares to compensate for the increased baggage costs incurred by the airlines have for providing baggage allowances well beyond what should be reasonable... and I can assure you that military and government fares are far cheaper than what those carriers could get carrying "private passengers".

You can spin it all you want, but I'll forever maintain that DL, or in this case the frontline agent representing DL messed up, used bad judgement, did the wrong thing.

IMHO, the best thing would have been for the agent to explain the rules but then get a supervisor to rectify the situation (i.e. get the supervisor to waive the fee). If it was a supervisor that actually collected the $2800 for the bags and DL as a corporation generally condoned this action before the GIs video was made public, than that is truly pathetic.

Please don't try to tell me that the agents have no leeway. I've witnessed several situations (1 at BA, 1 at UA, 1 at DL) where seniors flying trans-Atlantic in economy were not charged for their excesss checked bag(s) only because they either cried (DL in DTW) or caused a scene (BA in YYZ) or c) pretended not to understand (UA at IAD).

While I don't know what deals DOD gets on airfares, I can assure you from experience that several other federal government agencies pay higher fares than the public.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Instead you got a couple of testosterone laden GIs who decided they would take matters into their own hands....and instead have only resulted in a further increase in baggage allowances for military passengers - whether it should have occurred to match what the DOD agreed to w/ the airlines - or because the airlines or afraid of ticking anyone else off.

I've observed military people to be more respectful and well behaved passengers than most. Even on DL. Granted I've never been on a flight with a group of 30+ GIs, but to say they're a bunch of testostrone filled jocks looking for trouble is insulting.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say that there were a "bunch" of testosterone filled jocks... I said there were a "couple" of testosterone laden GIs... big difference.
The others apparently worked through the chain of command or were able to figure out that they would be reimbursed... there were precisely TWO - the normal definition of "couple" who chose to publish a video on YouTube instead of figuring out how to work through the appropriate channels.
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You and I DON'T know exactly what happened - who was involved at what levels of the frontline operation -could have been the STM as well.
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But for you to jump to the conclusion that DL was in error before knowing the facts - which you obviously did just like those testosterone laden GIs - demonstrates you own personal immaturity... not unlike the people who a few weeks ago were ready to jump to the conclusion that DL's outsourced mtaintenace was responsible for the improper deployment of the slide on the M80 in ATL. Despite a lengthy thread, not one person could say that DL's maintenance on the tailcone and slide is outsourced - let alone that was the source of the problem.
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This may be a discussion forum but discussing topics on which people have limited or incomplete information only leads to errors in judgment - with the ultimate conclusion that people like yourself have already formed your opinion about DL's guilt or not and simply look for the "evidence" to support your position. More often than not, the "evidence" never materializes but "you" don't change your mind.

 

[emmatabbycat]

"to jump to the conclusion that DL was in error before knowing the facts"

The Delta person that made the decision to charge these fee's may very well have been following company policy but judging from the backlash, it was clearly an error. Company policy can not cover every situation and clearly (with 100% hindsight) the decision the collect these fee's was an error. The fact is that regardless of company policy or what the orders stated, Delta lost big time on this. If Delta leadership has any brains at all, they will use this as an example and train their frontline people to make better choices regarding customer service.

As far as outsourced maintenance, let's not bother with that. One of the main reasons that I left Delta Tech Ops was was I considered to be a continuing decline in the quality of maintenance. I just got sick and tired of the increasing pressure to pencil-whip, having to re-do work from the 3rd party shops and watching as the guys that did pencil-whip were rewarded with early outs while those that tried to do a proper job got punished for their efforts.

From reading your posts over the long term, I know that you are a Delta loyalist (and that is your right) that will disagree with anyone that has anything bad to say about ma Delta. I'm actually impressed that you expend so much energy defending a company that is as ethically damaged as they were financially damaged.

 

[WorldTraveler]

"to jump to the conclusion that DL was in error before knowing the facts"

The Delta person that made the decision to charge these fee's may very well have been following company policy but judging from the backlash, it was clearly an error. Company policy can not cover every situation and clearly (with 100% hindsight) the decision the collect these fee's was an error. The fact is that regardless of company policy or what the orders stated, Delta lost big time on this. If Delta leadership has any brains at all, they will use this as an example and train their frontline people to make better choices regarding customer service.

As far as outsourced maintenance, let's not bother with that. One of the main reasons that I left Delta Tech Ops was was I considered to be a continuing decline in the quality of maintenance. I just got sick and tired of the increasing pressure to pencil-whip, having to re-do work from the 3rd party shops and watching as the guys that did pencil-whip were rewarded with early outs while those that tried to do a proper job got punished for their efforts.

From reading your posts over the long term, I know that you are a Delta loyalist (and that is your right) that will disagree with anyone that has anything bad to say about ma Delta. I'm actually impressed that you expend so much energy defending a company that is as ethically damaged as they were financially damaged.

obviously your personal experience was bad and you see them through scratched lenses... that is not something that I expect will change and my only hope for you is that you find a way to make a living that is in line with your personal convictions and abilities. I am sure you are capable of doing good work.
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While Bob Owens and some of the AA union club undoubtedly are thrilled to hear you say what you are saying about 3rd party maintenance, DL apparently has been able to operate without operational problems or being fined for the quality of its maintenance - at least at levels that draw national attention.
This forum is not appropriate for debating what constitutes good maintenance or whether it is less safe today than it was years ago but the whole world has changed... there are alot of us that don~t like alot of things... but that doesn't make them wrong or unacceptable. When there is evidence that the current way of doing maintenance is unsatisfactory - then I presume it will change.
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As to the specfics of the baggage case, even the DOD can't come up with the same story:


Defense Department spokeswoman Cynthia Smith noted that airlines are in their right to charge for excess baggage, "even for service members." She said Delta had been allowing four free bags for first-class and business flights, and three free bags for active-duty military members flying coach.

"In this instance, they followed their policy and allowed three free bags for these travelers," she said, noting that the Pentagon does not "directly negotiate" with airlines over fees.

But Col. Thomas Collins, a spokesman for the Army, told Fox News Radio the baggage fees "seem to be unusual."

"Historically, the airlines have been gracious in waiving baggage fees for our troops deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan," he said.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/army-welcomes-delta-policy-shift-on-extra-baggage-fees/#ixzz1Oojlj8z0.

I doubt very seriously that the damage is major or long term. The government just like every other consumer where go where it can find the best deal.
For the rest of the military travelers who somehow thought they could be exempt from whatever charges they might incur, they might think twice about carrying a little extra cash or a credit card around - just like everyone else does.
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Again my wishes for finding some sort of happiness in the means it takes to make a living.

 

[emmatabbycat]

"my only hope for you is that you find a way to make a living that is in line with your personal convictions and abilities. I am sure you are capable of doing good work."

"Again my wishes for finding some sort of happiness in the means it takes to make a living."

Almost a touch of condescension there??

Have no worries about my ability to earn a living. I just happened to be reviewing my 2010 tax return today and decided to compare it with my last full year at delta. Wow, what a huge difference. Better paycheck, better benefits, better retirement, better 401K and unlimited possibilities for the future. The only regret I have about leaving Delta is that I waited so long before leaving. The very qualities that Delta disliked (quality maintenance, attention to detail, doing things properly) are the very same qualities that my current employer expects.

I only brought up maintenance because you mentioned it first. I was there, I don't think you were and delta's maintenance was crap (at least where I worked and at the stations where I had friends).

Again, I'm impressed by your dedication to see delta through rose colored glasses. It's pretty amazing to follow the unwavering loyalty and never ending defense of a company that builds on the high ethical standards of leaders like Leo Mullin and Michele Burns. Keep up the good defense and never admit to any flaw at delta!

 

[eolesen]

well let's see, Eric.

You didn't even bother to participate in this discussion until the dust was all settled and then you decided you would try to use it as yet another attempt to defame me.... but once again, you have added nothing to the discussion and you didn't even accurately assess what I wrote.
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FWAAA doesn't have a triple digit reputation scored which has been artificially inflated... but I and a whole lot of other people are far more inclined to respect that when he speaks, he knows what is talking about, and he has the maturity to not feel like he has to get the last word on every subject that is discussed (it is more than a little apaprent that you felt the need to post a response in each thread I participated in yesterday including informing all of us that AA's PSP is equivalent to DL Dash which is properly written in all caps since it is an acronym).
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So, my suggestion to you, no really strong advise, Eric (edited) is that you let go of your personal and incessant desire for revenge and demonstrate a modicum of maturity and leadership instead of continuing to harp on the size of the hairs on a gnat, esp. if you can't even accurately measure them.
I'm terribly sorry if your self-worth is wrapped up in your need to be right which manifests itself in cutting other people down and speaking on topics which are unprepared and unqualified to speak on, only making you less qualified than you really are.
That said, Eric, you actually DO have knowledge and experience which could be quite useful if you could accept that what you do know is sufficient and that people will really respect you for what you do know.
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Perhaps people will actually REALLY respect you for knowing something if you actually stick to what you do know, consider that it is possible for someone else to win without you losing (DL and AA COULD possibly both WIN as could E and WT) and don't try to turn every discussion into a personal fighting match....
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if you learned those lessons, that would be a wonderful birthday present you could give me... and yourself too.

Seems to me you are desperately seeking validation, WT. People who have to repeatedly write pages and pages to try and support an argument usually don't have a good one to make in the first place. And it is a sure sign that you want to dominate the (every) conversation. That's why you say it's not appropriate to discuss maintenance -- you can't speak to it, so it isn't appropriate, even though some 50% of the high-post count participants on the forum can speak intelligently about it...

Personally, I could care less about the forum rating system. I don't rate posts, and I'm sure there are people who automatically give certain posters a negative or positive rating.

But as you seem to think it is always appropriate to compare peers when it suits your argument, I guess it can't be discounted so easily.

Maybe I just see this as a distraction from my day job, and pulling the wings off your arguments is better than pulling wings off of flies, to paraphrase and exchange between Herb and Icahn.

The real reason that I didn't "jump in immediately" is that instead of calling myself a world traveler, I actually do it, and time zones on the other side of the Pacific don't do much when youre discussing something between 1100 and 1700 East Coast time....

Sorry if your own medicine burns a bit as it goes down. And sorry if you're getting bloodied in the discussion. It's not personal unless you make it so. And frankly, your actions of typing out my full name in a way to try and discredit me to professional references is making it quite personal.

Have a great weekend. I'm just glad to be back in the US for a week.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Cat,
there is no condescension.... I'm glad you found employment you like for an employer you respect and still manage to make more money. You probably could have moved earlier... I have never tried to portray working for an airline as anything to be sought after....esp. in the last 10 yeas.
I also have never had anything good to say about Mullins et al... and have said they oversaw the lowest point of DL's existence... shame on them.
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But I also have said that you and others should judge anyone on the basis of who they are TODAY and what they do in a specific situation.
With respect to this situation, a DoD spokesperson said DL had a right to have charged for excess baggage and that the DoD does not negotiate baggage allowances with airlines. There are indeed procedures in place for reimbursement of charges. Other DoD personnel said they expect waivers... this issue of why several of us think continually granting waivers to the US government is a bad idea has been discusssed, esp. since they continue to pile on expensive regulations on the airlines.
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Delta and AA changed their baggage policies to give even more checked luggage to military - presumably with not a penny more in revenue.
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It is not rose colored to have judged DL in this situation on the basis of what it did... which all but a few people on the internet recognize was correct.
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again, I'm sorry your experience with DL was bad... but I would also hope you can judge other situations you encounter regarding DL on their own merits.
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E,
glad you had a good trip... hope it is productive.
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I write what I write - regardless of how much time it takes - based on rational, logical explanations. If you or anyone else want to debate on the basis of emotion or preconceived notions, then not even one sentence of logic will make sense nor will you (collectively) likely change your mind.
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I don't see DL's actions here as irrational - nor do I in other contexts.
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DL is no saint but it has executed one of the most successful restructurings in US airline history - and it continues to make rational, logical decisions that protect the value of its shareholders and in the process appears to be doing the best job possible to mnimiize whatever negative impact iis necessary and maximiize whatever positive impact those actions might have.
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Each of us have our own "budgets" and schedules for time we can spend on this and every other activity in our lives....

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enjoy your weekend.

 

[dapoes]

The following is a letter that active ATL FA Susan I. Powell sent to the Atlanta Journal and Constitution and Channel 11 News here in Atlanta. It is her response to Channel 11's reporting of the bag fees for military personnel that was recently in the news.

From: Susan I. Powell

Date: June 9, 2011 2:49:12

Subject: My letter to Channel 11 and AJC

June 8, 2011

As a Delta Air Lines employee, I am offended (but not surprised) by the tendency of the news media in Atlanta to immediately go for the jugular when presented with the slightest opportunity to paint Delta in a negative light. I deeply resent the editorial I saw on Channel 11 by Brenda Wood when she accused Delta of being greedy and gouging soldiers to fill our coffers. Even Ms. Wood's own colleague at Channel 11, Bill Liss, conceded in his earlier report on the same day that Delta was merely following baggage fee guidelines stipulated in its contract with the military ... guidelines dictated by the military, not by Delta. Mr. Liss further conceded that Delta's contract with the military already allowed for additional fee-free bags for soldiers, above and beyond what regular customers enjoy. Subsequent reports on Channel 11 and other stations confirmed that the military also reimburses soldiers for any travel fees, including bag fees, incurred by them personally in transit.

So, when two individual soldiers took issue with having to incur the charge first and be reimbursed by the military later and chose to post their frustrations on YouTube, the Delta bashing in the Atlanta news media was immediate, especially at Channel 11. Thankfully, I know the management of my company far better than Ms. Wood does. I had every confidence that as soon our CEO Richard Anderson was aware the policy negotiated with Delta by the government presented a problem for even one soldier, my company would immediately make additional allowances for soldiers and even their entire families, above the allowances dictated by the military contract, even if it impacted Delta’s profitability. My company did make those adjustments – in less than 24 hours! Of course, Delta's competitors have predictably seized the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and announce they will also amend their own policies to match Delta's generosity, but I don't recall hearing Ms. Wood mention the other carriers who imposed the same baggage policies as Delta for traveling servicemen and women – it was just Delta she called "greedy."

Fuel prices are off the charts again this year. The traveling public sometimes forgets it takes just as much fuel to transport bags as the customers in the seats ... so it is an increasing expense Delta has to compensate for in some way. I have no input in Delta's corporate policies about baggage fees, but my impact as a crewmember is my own.

Many of Delta's pilots and other employees are military and my crews always go to great lengths to recognize and accommodate every single solider we have the privilege of meeting. In my 32 years at Delta, I have flown with many pilots who give me their own personal credit card and ask me to purchase food for any soldiers on the flight – I have purchased food for many of them with my own money. Open First Class seats are rare these days with the complimentary upgrades enjoyed by our SkyMiles members, but our gate agents always put soldiers in available First Class seats, without hesitation. After 9/11, many of Delta's First Class customers fell all over themselves to offer their First Class seats to soldiers, but complacency has set in over the last 10 years and I find few customers who even acknowledge soldiers on board. I personally always recognize soldiers in the concourse and especially on board, so I take great offense to media persons outside Delta unfairly characterizing Delta as insensitive and assuming my company's adherence to a policy dictated in our military contract – a policy apparently in effect at Delta's competitors as well – can be interpreted as a failure to recognize, appreciate and value our nation's heroes.



Susan Powell
Delta Air Lines
Buford, GA

 

[dapoes]

From the Military Times forum: http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1590184-It-wasn-t-Delta-s-fault-to-begin-with...but-they-picked-up-the-slack

It wasn't Delta's fault to begin with...but they picked up the slack

Soldiers Returning From Afghanistan Want Delta To Do An About-Face After Charging Them Hundreds of Dollars in Baggage Fees
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/08...-baggage-fees/

Delta Air Lines Changes Policy After Charging Soldiers Returning From Afghanistan Thousands for Extra Luggage
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/08...eturning-from/

Why don't these Army guys have a GTC or CSA now like the rest of us?! I have paid many of extra bag fees with it only to be reimbursed.

“We know this is a business issue and that the troops will be reimbursed if they are authorized additional baggage in their orders,” said VFW spokesman Joe Davis. “But the shock of even being charged is enough to make most servicemen and women to simply shake their heads and wonder who or what it is they are protecting.”

..., O’Hair said it could take weeks for them to get that money – putting a financial hardship on some military families.
That doesn't make it Delta's fault, it makes it the Government's fault for having a crappy travel and reimbursement system.