Delta's New World Order

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

It amazes me that you haven't flown UA or AA then b/c they are no better. Sorry to burst your bubble. Money talks in politics and AMR and UAL have always put plenty of $$ and effort into lobbying the government. Again...look at LHR rights and the new China rights.

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Ch. 12,

Let me get this straight.

Of only 5 legacy carriers left, your saying that the FEDS have treated AA/UA/CO and NW favorably, while discriminating AGAINST (poor lil' ol') DL, ONLY ????

(Jesus, I CAN'T WAIT to hear/read THIS reply) !!!!!!!!!!!!!


NH/BB's

 

[TheWatcher]

Unlike most other airlines, DL flew an amazing number of 763s and 764s on domestic routes - there's no shortage of widebody aircraft to shift from ATL-MCO to supposedly/hopefully lucrative JFK-Europe routes.

Does Delta still have the worlds largest fleet of 767's and 757's ?

 

[Ch. 12]

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Ch. 12,

Let me get this straight.

Of only 5 legacy carriers left, your saying that the FEDS have treated AA/UA/CO and NW favorably, while discriminating AGAINST (poor lil' ol') DL, ONLY ????

(Jesus, I CAN'T WAIT to hear/read THIS reply) !!!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's

NO...don't twist. I CLEARLY said that AA and UA have always lobbied strongly. In order to obtain executive priveleges (China rights) and maintain legislative protection (Wright Amendment), one must send bodies to Congress and do so convincingly. It is no secret that AA and UA have had some of the largest lobbying forces out there. Believe it or not, Mesa also has a huge lobbying force. No...that is how our system works. More subjective than objective. If you put the money into lobbying, you get results. It has worked for big tobacco, big oil, and the few majors that send hordes of lobbyists to DC. No...perhaps DL is not really a victim b/c they could have played the game as well. I just think it's an ethically-challenged game and am actually happy to be with a carrier that hasn't played into it. AMR is content with it's lobbying efforts b/c those efforts help them maintain competitive advantages (again...protection of legislation concerning the WA, LHR, and China) but I still don't like the process. It's an ethical dilemma...AMR has chosen one route and DAL another.

So no...don't twist my statements. I never said "poor little DL". I simply said that lobbying efforts are what gave AMR their added rights...and you can look at history to see that it is something that repeats itself often for AMR. It's all there for you...connect the dots.

 

[IORFA]

IMO, AA got the rights to China over DAL, because they wanted to fly from ATL. While yes it is a big hub, it is not a better alternative to ORD. Connecting pax don't want to fly south and/or east to connect in ATL to China. DAL had the third best proposal available for two openings. Thats the truth. They might have had a better chance had they chosen to fly from JFK. Hopefully they will get the 2008 opening. Although, I am sure HA and others will bid again. I just can't understand ATL being your one and only entrance point to China. Seems like a poor choice to me.

 

[FWAAA]

IMO, AA got the rights to China over DAL, because they wanted to fly from ATL. While yes it is a big hub, it is not a better alternative to ORD. Connecting pax don't want to fly south and/or east to connect in ATL to China. DAL had the third best proposal available for two openings. Thats the truth. They might have had a better chance had they chosen to fly from JFK. Hopefully they will get the 2008 opening. Although, I am sure HA and others will bid again. I just can't understand ATL being your one and only entrance point to China. Seems like a poor choice to me.

I agree completly, but the conspiracy theorists will just claim that the DOT carefully wrote its opinion in granting CO and AA the authorities and frequencies to justify its "preferential" treatment of those two airlines.

ATL is a darned big hub, but Chicago is a much bigger market, and the feds thought competition with UA was important.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I agree completly, but the conspiracy theorists will just claim that the DOT carefully wrote its opinion in granting CO and AA the authorities and frequencies to justify its "preferential" treatment of those two airlines.

ATL is a darned big hub, but Chicago is a much bigger market, and the feds thought competition with UA was important.

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Ah huh !

Soooo Ch. 12, there you have it.

ATL considered a 'lesser' hub than ORD(AA), or EWR(CO) !!

Also, could DL's 777's "make the trip" on a "full tank" from ATL to Shangai ??

NH/BB's

 

[Ch. 12]

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Also, could DL's 777's "make the trip" on a "full tank" from ATL to Shangai ??

NH/BB's

It's 200 NM less than ATL-NRT so basic logic would say "yes". DL also applied for the rights so common sense would also say that you wouldn't apply for it if you couldn't make it.

As far as gateways go...international is not the same beast as domestic...it isn't the goal to get 90% local traffic...it is made up of connecting traffic from all over the network. CO will not be filling planes with EWR to SHA traffic but rather with TUP/CLE/OMA/JFK/LAX/SEA/SAN/DEN....etc to SHA traffic. This is the same for any carrier. I will agree that there is more potential for CHI to SHA local traffic but AA's flights will still be largely made up of connecting traffic. With SHA being so far away AND having such limited availability, geographic connect points don't matter (if they did, HA and UA would have all rights through HNL and SFO) in this instance.

If you want to believe that congress just decides based on no input from the carriers, you can go on living in your dream world. But any limited rights (such as China and LHR) as well as any protectionist legislatioin (such as the Wright Amendment) is FOUGHT FOR by lobbyists sent by the company. The more you send and the better quality you pay for, the better the results.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Ch.12,
Fair enough !
But why were'nt LEADERS like "LEO", and more specifically "GERRY" THINKING along these lines, NOT so many years ago, or we're they MORE concerned about WHO would be King(carrier) from BIRMINGHAM AL. to "HOT" LANTA ?

??

NH/BB's

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch.12,
Fair enough !
But why were'nt LEADERS like "LEO", and more specifically "GERRY" THINKING along these lines, NOT so many years ago, or we're they MORE concerned about WHO would be King(carrier) from BIRMINGHAM AL. to "HOT" LANTA ?

??

NH/BB's

Leo was lining his pockets and building a parachute.

I think it was just a choice in where to put your assets. AMR has always dedicated a decent portion of the budget to gaining rights, protecting helpful legislation, and winning overall favor. That was their choice and is clear in their business plan. DL has thrown resources at technology and Leo and is still cleaning the house. I'm still not sure if intense lobbying fits DL to a T but I do think you'll see more of DL trying to win the government's favor as they look to get a foothold internationally. But then again...those 777's have been allocated so only a new order for eqpt would get them to China now and I'm not so certain I would expect a huge order for 777's anytime soon.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I’m glad you’ve enjoyed this little thread while I was out of the country…. And I saw an aweful lot of Americans…. They are traveling in record numbers, precisely why DL’s int’l expansion is so successful.

I have never understood why US airlines fly to so relatively few cities worldwide (outside of their home continents) when compared with their peers in Europe and Asia. DL has recognized that the world is shrinking by the minute…. I heard all kinds of people in Asia complaining about the number of immigrants coming to their countries…. people that go back and forth to their home countries… just like what is happening in the US.

In many respects, Pan Am was at least 30 years ahead of its time trying to fly to destinations all over the globe … and using big widebodies to do it. DL’s 767s are the smallest and most cost effective widebodies out there (until the 787 comes along and it will take some time before they exist in large enough numbers to really change the shape of the industry). The 767 is ideal for expanding into new markets and in freeing up DL’s small 777 fleet for more longhaul flying.

I disagree that UA has the best int’l route system. They have dots all over the map but they are #4 among US airlines both to Europe and Latin America. The only region where they are dominant is to Asia. UA is a shadow of its former self and far from what it should be given that it purchased most of Pan Am’s route authorities other to continental Europe. I believe you are seeing and will continue to see CO and DL take very different strategies to develop their int’l networks as they focus on adding dozens of cities around the world while AA, UA, and NW focus on serving a relatively smaller number of cities, each of which has huge revenue generating capability (AA in Latin America is an exception to this generalization). Both strategies can be successful but I would argue that the CO/DL strategy is better suited for global growth.

Asia might look sexy but the only markets that really matter are the ones that make money. Asia makes money but there are lots of solid markets as close as right over the Atlantic that make plenty of money too. And aside from DL and CO, most US airlines have relatively few destinations in Europe. Yes, DL wants to grow in Asia but it would be foolish to not make the most of the market access and the airplanes DL does have. There will be many, many more routes coming from DL in other parts of the world before they become a significant player in East Asia. And you are also seeing DL’s new management team diversifying DL’s network to major cities outside of ATL, exactly what DL has needed. ATL is a great gateway but it is not ideal to Asia. Coupled with JFK, ATL is ideal for service from the US to Europe, Africa, and S. America – exactly where DL is expanding.

AA and UA bought their way into LHR fair and square…. DL was 9 months too late in getting serious about European expansion and lost access to LHR to UA.

DL says they will announce more JFK growth next week…. I think it’s apparent they know what they are doing and will continue to return to profitability in defiance of what the naysayers said not many months ago.

 

[JFK777]

Delta has built up Atlanta international presence to almost every significant place in Europe & South America, they now fly from Atlanta to every country in Latin America except Bolivia, Paraguay and Uruguay. With South African service coming this fall, this opens new doors to a barely served market from the USA.

Asian service from ATL besides Tokyo is a geographic challenge, given ATL's south eastern location. Makes me remember the Portland, Oregon hub of Delta's first Pacific service to Tokyo in 1988. Delta had a nice gateway with MD-11's there in the 1990's. At its peak they flew from PDX to Tokyo, Nagoya, Seoul and Taipei each nonstop daily, that was four MD-11's. Why was it killed? I still to this day don't know and thought it was a bad idea. In the 1990's Delta also flew from Los Angeles to Tokyo with an MD-11. At one point Delta flew to Tokyo from four US cities(only briefly at the same time though): Los Angeles, JFK, ATL and PDX. Only if the southern good 'ole boys from Atlanta hadn't killed the four pronged Asian plan, Delta might have a decent west coast Pacific hub today in either LAX or Portland. I know 9/11 killed off a lots of plans, but pulling out of LAX to NRT was a bad call. AA pulled into JFK and Lax to Tokyo and they still fly those routes 5 years after 9/11. Isn't interesting AA got the ORD to Shanghai route.

 

[Fly]

Everywhere DL flys, all the others can fly also. Easier for the others to sit back and watch DL fail, then swoop in to pick at the bones. DL has no real 'jewels', just a bunch of costume jewelry. THAT is why everyone says United has the BEST route structure. Get it now?

(hey World, you used to be a little cheerleader for AA, why the sudden prancing about over CAL?)

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Hey FLY.

You seem to be "full of P + V ", lately.

You must have switched your soft drink brand to "JOLT COLA"

NH/BB's

 

[Fly]

B)

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL's PDX hub certainly could have worked if they had used a decent aircraft. The M11 was a pig but the 767 could have flown every one of the routes DL flew from PDX. DL also did not feed the hub except to its hubs.... they expected everyone except in their hubs and a couple more west coast cities to double connect, a formula that just won't work. With 767s and the AS codeshare, PDX could work today but it won't happen. DL has other ideas for Asia but it will take a few years to make them happen.

Fly,
I have no problem w/ recognizing any airline that has made good moves. AA has done the best job on the industry of recognizing the trends and adapting to them, over and over again. CO took great advantage of their 2 bankruptcies and has built a great airline. Problem is that DL is taking many of the pieces from CO's puzzle and making them work for DL. And working they are... faster and better than they did for CO.

UA has made some brilliant strategic moves... in the past. They HAD the world's best route system AT ONE TIME. Unfortunately, they are now the #4 airline from the US to Europe and Latin America despite acquiring significant portions of Pan Am's estate.

Success is not about how many assets you hold but what you do with them. Assets are only worthwhile if they generate revenue for you. Yes, other airlines could fly to alot of the other countries DL flies to but DL has locked up continental Europe and few other airlines have a significant presence in DL's continental Europe cities other than to their alliance partners. It has long been known that Moscow is one of DL's most profitable cities and their new ATLSVO service has joined JFKSVO in becoming a nice profit center, thus the inspiration to add Kiev, Budapest, and what likely will be several more Eastern European cities. And in Latin America, DL has taken route authority that other carriers including UA could not make work and has become the #2 airline to the region.

It's not about how many assets you hold but what you do with what you have. You of all people, Fly, should know that.

All the indications are that DL will not only successfully restructure but become a driving force in how the industry consolidates.