Delta, pilots reach contract deal early

[QA4Jet-A]

I don't know, seems to make very clear, some type, beyond our ability to know...

Such wishy-washy ramblings...

It would seem that if DL wanted to get rid of 50-seaters it had the perfect opportunity, but not only didn't take advantage of it but is working hard to keep the 77 50-seaters that Pinnacle operates...

Jim

I'd be surprised if DL takes the 717s unless they are so very cheap it is laughable. There are only 88 and while they could perhaps, enhance DL's Route map, consider all the rest in supporting the fleet with Engineering, Part Suppliers, Training, etc. To some of you, it may seem like another MD-90/MD-80 Family airplane but it is a bit of a different beast. Considering the cost of adding people with knowledge of the plane alone, won't be that cheap. Also, it is a Dead-end airplane... no more in production. How wise would that be for Delta to purchase a plane that is so limited? On another note, I read earlier that Delta made $854 Mil on Baggage Fees alone last year, yet, if they didn't have those fees in place, they would have lost $10 Mil! Don't shoot the messenger, just sayin! I do believe I mis-read... here is the C&P quote, Believe as you wish...
For cash-strapped airlines, that sort of revenue must seem like manna from heaven, especially as airlines struggle to maintain profitability in tough times. To put it in perspective, without the $864 million that Delta earned in baggage fees last year, the airline’s net operating income of $854 million would instead have been a $10 million loss. Maybe buying the 717s will fix this

 

[BoeingBoy]

While the baggage fees effectively produced all the operating income, much the same could be said of the other legacy carriers. US collected $506 million in baggage fees, UA and CO together was $630 million, and AA (which lost money anyway) was $593 million. Without looking the profit numbers, I think every legacy would have lost money without the baggage fees.

Of course, baggage fees are only one component of ancilliary fees. Ticket cancellatin/change fees, while resulting is less income than baggage fees, were enough that without those the legacies would have lost money.

As for a 100+/- seat mainline plane, what you say is true but would apply to any new fleet type that size. What does apply is the long term cost where a new plane would be cheaper than an older plane. But what you say does argue for the Airbus 319 or even the 737-600. Sometimes cheaper up front costs more overall...

Jim

 

[topDawg]

Dawg,
Where did you come up w/ the idea that I hate labor?
Or perhaps you don't grasp that pilots at most US airlines can make or break an airline's strategic plans - for less so for any other union.
There is clearly some sort of major strategic shift (or perhaps several) that DL is trying to capture by settling the contract so early... the question is which one of the items I listed - or others - are part of it IMO it has more to do with the current PWA is going to hurt the company more than this turd will. Such as, Asking for a 30%+ cut in profit sharing. This is large change is due to DALPA memebers getting a much larger PS check if Delta goes over 1B in profit(a number they should crush this year and next). Also the current caps on JVs would force the company to fly more on its own metal vs AF/KL/AZ. So less money and less jobs. Woohooo.....WT this contract is worse than the BK contract. That is sad.
Buying airplanes has long been used as a tool to incentivize airline pilots to accept new contracts. Companies usually want to know that they will have labor peace before committing to billions of dollars of new equipment.every contract comes the promise of new jets. during BK it was 100+ 787, 30-50 777s and E90/E95. They went so far as to put the pay rates into the contract. Remind me how many E90s Delta has? How about 787s? and 777s? They are doing it once again, but it would be very foolish for anyone to fall for it again. (4 contracts in a row)
I've seen some of the e-mails regarding rates in the new contract as well - and they don't have some EXISTING DL fleet types in them, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet since they also say that DL is banding groups of a/c together. There are supposedly rates for the Ejets, and I believe there are rates for those in the current contract as well Means nothing. Read above. They can put A380s, A340s, 717, L1011, MD11, DC10, DC8, CRJ, ERJ etc. in and it doesn't mean crap. And the M88 and M90 will pay the same, but the M90 should be on the 737 pay grade as it holds the same. Now it will be ~10 bucks lower.
Given that DL's position over the Atlantic hasn't changed with the JV, it's kind of hard to argue that a Pacific JV would hurt DL given that DL is not about to give up its position in Japan - already larger than both JL and NH across the Pacific combined - unless DL can get a whole lot more in return - more China/HKG or a share of KE's Pacific revenue, one of the largest carriers in Asia. But supposedly there are much tighter controls for JVs in the contract anywhere. They are not going awayNo the JV SCOPE sucks. The hole section one sucks, but DALPA some how found away to make it even more terrible. Oh and for your TPAC JV, how about 1 to 4. VA has 4 flights to Delta's 1. Yep, winning. (and now anytime anyone asks RA about OZ flights it "fly our codeshare partner to MEL"

Despite what some believe, COOPERATION not CONFRONTATION is the basis for improved benefits for all.,
lol. this TA says your wrong.

 

[topDawg]

DL's sensitivity to the pilot's concern about RJ expansion at NYC as well as the potential for increased flights are highlighted in the list of new flights announced today from both LGA and JFK, all on mainline aircraft.

http://finance.yahoo...-130000139.html

Note how many of the markets are B6 markets, making it apparent that DL has no intention of attempting to acquire B6 and can do what it needs in NYC with the slots it has. The greatest value to DL from B6 is in BOS, but dominance in NYC will have a halo effect on other east coast markets.
The 717s also could have value to DL on the west coast where I believe DL will be shifting its strategic focus now that its strategic goals in NYC are coming close to being fulfilled.

Ha, if thats they case then maybe they will buy them then lease them to AS. (DBA Delta Air Lines INC)

 

[Kev3188]

"I am all about accountability, Kev."

Of course you are...

 

[Kev3188]

Letter from the MEC here:


http://dal.alpa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=4630&PortalId=3&TabId=1047

~20% raise over the life of the CBA. Must be nice to be able to collectively bargain w/your employer.

Guess I should remember to "know my place," and be glad that the rest of may get a 3% raise later this summer...

 

[WorldTraveler]

"I am all about accountability, Kev."

Of course you are...

yes, I am.
Except when "accountability" means throwing more dirt at someone else in order to make "me" look better, than that isn't the kind of accountability we need here.

Since you seem to be on this campaign to support justice and protect the rights of the oppressed, Kev, how about you sit down and have a good one on one with your client and ask him if he has been truthful about all of the stuff he has said on this forum, esp. with regard to whether there might be even a hint of hypocrisy - let alone truckloads full of it.

But you indeed are the audience and this is between E and I and unless he proves he wants to escalate it, I'm going to let sleeping dogs alone.

The ideal is always for people to work out their differences in private first and then only if it becomes apparent that there is value TO THE GROUP in taking it public, should that be done.

As we say in English, that would be the truth.
-----

Dawg,
IMHO, and I don't get to vote on this pilot contract, I am significantly underwhelmed with it. I don't see the pilots getting much of anything - a 12% raise - in return for allowing the company to replace a couple hundred 50 seaters which were going to go bye-bye anyway - in order to add up to 70 more 76 seaters - or something like that.
Yes, they are taking a cut in profit sharing in order to fund that 12% raise OR the 1% increase in DC plan funding.
But keep in mind that the company can't acquire another 76 seater unless they really do buy some other aircraft -717 or 319 is mentioned so I think there are teeth in the agreement - on top of the fact that there are DCI/mainline ratios in the new agreement.

The M90 is a lighter, less capable aircraft than the 738. For decades, pilots have wanted to use MGTOW as the basis for pilot pay - and now that formula doesn't look as interesting now that the company has a lightweight 160 seater that has alot less range and capability than DL's "heavy weight" 160 seater.

That said, there are plenty of DL pilots who have had expectations of exceeding WN - and those expectations are more than a bit questionable in light of the fact that WN itself has said its labor rates are not sustainable and its financial performance has fallen off significantly, AA is in the middle of the 1113 process, and UA would probably end up back in BK if it paid its pilots what DL has in the new contract.

It comes down to whether DL pilots want to get 12% in raises now or wait a couple more years for the company to drag the whole process out.

If the pilot group shoots the contract down, I doubt very seriously that there will be any sweeteners - and instead the company and ALPA will be in a multi-year holding pattern.

 

[WorldTraveler]

And, Kev, I agree that the pilots arguing for WN rates is a little much against what the rest of the employees make.

The difference is that the pilots have enough teeth in their scope requirements to stop the company from its strategic plans - which is the only reason why the company is offering up this agreement.

They threw you a few peanuts knowing what they were going to give the pilots.

I hope they don't decide your profit sharing is getting excessive in order to pay for your raise.

 

[Kev3188]

"yes, I am.
Except when "accountability" means throwing more dirt at someone else in order to make "me" look better, than that isn't the kind of accountability we need here.

Since you seem to be on this campaign to support justice and protect the rights of the oppressed, Kev, how about you sit down and have a good one on one with your client and ask him if he has been truthful about all of the stuff he has said on this forum, esp. with regard to whether there might be even a hint of hypocrisy - let alone truckloads full of it."

I don't have a client. I'm pointing out the dissonance between what you claim to be all about, and what you actually post. Additionally, I couldn't help but notice that despite advocating "letting sleeping dogs lie," you managed to throw in yet another dig at another poster.

As for profit sharing, that's the least of my worries. The proposed raise is just that- proposed.

No, I suspect many people will soon get letters that start with something like, "due to unforseen economic issues...," and will include the word "transitioning."

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, I'm not throwing another dig. I'm simply asking if you really know the people you meet - and when you do, if you are capable of living with the dissonance between what you see and perceive and what you thought going in.... since all of us are human, there are very few people who will not disappoint us at some point. The question is what we do with it and how our view of the world is shaped by it.

All of us have very positive points and all of us have areas that need to be improved. We can focus on the failures of the past -including what we have experienced with other people - or we can focus on the potential to improve and build something new.

I'm not at all going to defend all of my actions - but I can decide that I will take the lead in breaking whatever unhealthy patterns I might have participated in during the past. The highest form of maturity for any of us is to change our behavior, make peace with those we might have harmed, and resolve to live differently.

I'm actually quite pleased that E and Jim, the two people I have tangled with on here have stepped away from this fray. I commend them for their actions and to the extent possible, my desire is for us to coexist peaceable on here.

---
to be fair, you have feared for your job since before the merger was ever consummated. I can promise you nothing but I can assure you that worrying about when the axe will fall does nothing to help you enjoy life.

Continue to plan well - which you have said you do - and be prepared to roll with the punches.

And I truly hope that you will be at DL - and do what you do well - for as long as you want to do it.



----

 

[eolesen]

I don't have a client. I'm pointing out the dissonance between what you claim to be all about, and what you actually post. Additionally, I couldn't help but notice that despite advocating "letting sleeping dogs lie," you managed to throw in yet another dig at another poster.

That's WT's way -- everyone else is accountable, he's not. Everyone else needs to prove their qualifications and provide backup to a statement, while he posts anonymously from a secret bunker south of Sao Paolo.


It's easy to try and walk away from a fight you start. Tim's obviously mad that the forum software upgrade revealed his secret user profile he was using to inflate his user reputation score, and somehow it's my fault he got caught doing so.

In short, he's pissed he was held accountable by others for his actions.

His attempt at "Wag The Dog" is sad yet predictable.

Tim thinks that others have "stepped away from the fray" but that would be a wrong assumption. There's just not much more left to do in proving he's a liar.

 

[737823]

Letter from the MEC here:


http://dal.alpa.org/DesktopModules/Bring2mind/DMX/Download.aspx?Command=Core_Download&EntryId=4630&PortalId=3&TabId=1047

~20% raise over the life of the CBA. Must be nice to be able to collectively bargain w/your employer.

Guess I should remember to "know my place," and be glad that the rest of may get a 3% raise later this summer...

If you don't like what DL is offering look elsewhere. Isn't WN hiring and they are a strongly union airline. Won't there also be an election soon at DL once the IAM waits two years? They'll be back down the workers throats at the first opportunity.

Josh

 

[700UW]

And once again you post things that are not relevant to the topic, this is about the pilots, not the IAM, give it up Joshie, does your employer know you post on this board while you are suppose to be kicking some old lady out of their house again?

 

[737823]

And once again you post things that are not relevant to the topic, this is about the pilots, not the IAM, give it up Joshie, does your employer know you post on this board while you are suppose to be kicking some old lady out of their house again?

Not remotely related to my duties, 700UW. Have some downtime and am waiting for my flight at the DFW Admirals club.

Besides I was responding to Kev's post. Seems you're very interested in me lately following me from thread to thread.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

You can't in all fairness pick on Josh while this other side show goes on - as they often do on this site - and part of the reason why many check in for their laugh of the day.

There is nothing that you would like more, E, than for me to continue to throw dirt - because in your mind that gives you license to do the same.
I'm not playing - but I'll continue to hold my cards.
What is that about "you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em?"

And of course I could decide to continue to hold them, even if it means that someone else might believe they have won.

There really is a choice to take the high road - some will choose to act on their words while some will just pay lip service.

---

Since the topic IS the pilot contract and so far the DL pilots are all on other forums, let's just say that the notion that being unionized has yielded a huge win is not exactly what I am reading elsewhere. They aren't happy and I'm not entirely surprised.
What the pilots are saying - and I can find some agreement - is that ALPA is trying to protect the interests of regional carrier pilots at the expense of DL pilots and for the benefit of the company.
But the company also knows that if the pilots decide to decertify ALPA and vote in an in-house union, the process will take years - and DL will drag their feet in agreeing to a new contract.

This TA shows that having a union doesn't mean you get what you want.