Delta pilots move to block UAL merger...

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I've got the utmost respect for the employees at DAL, AMR and NWA (except the scabs....). This back and forth is just comical. Does Glen WANT consolidation? YES. Truth is, you should to. It ain't about layoffs and cutbacks, it's about reducing the number of airlines so that ticket pricing can rationalize. If it's done correctly, it would actually INCREASE the number of mainline jobs. Cities with 20 RJ flights flown by 5 differant companies would end up with 12 mainline flights flown by 3 companies. But since we're sitting here comparing gonad size, I figured a few numbers should be included in the "you are months away from BK" and "didn't do enough in BK" BS peddled by a few incompetent so called "analyst" who only get a phone call when a lazy financial reporter is looking for some silly, outlandish tag lines to attract readership.

The most recent numbers are the most relevant:
3q 2007
Company.........Revenue..........Pre-tax Profit......Net interest expense
United...............$5.5 Bill..........$498 Mill.............$90 mill
Delta.................$5.2 Bill...........$363 Mill............$90 mill
American...........$6.0 Bill...........$175 Mill............$137 mill

So by what measure is UAL about to go under?
If UAL has SO MUCH MORE debt than DAL or AMR, then why is the interest expense at UAL roughly equal to DAL and substantially lower than AMR?
If UAL is selling MP, then who would buy it if UAL's plan was to sell itself off in pieces, thereby giving MP members no airline on which to USE the miles?

THINK PEOPLE!!

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Busdrvr,

Words can not express how much of a Proponent I am of consolidations !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I think especially for DL, a UAL/DL would be a good one)

But by DALPA putting the "kibosh" on this(good) deal, sends a signal loud and clear that they "may" (NOW)have been reading from the Bob CRANDALL book of "zero mergers".
Couple that with CO and NW happy with their current situation(s), leaves(SADLY) for the UAL folks..."Truck stop MARY"(aka LCC/DOUGWEISER)........only.......for Glen Tilton.


beauty................So much for "NO response" !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Depends on the TYPE of lease .

And the classification as to the type of lease depends on the specifics of the lease - a plane leased from GE or IFLC can be required to be classified as a capital instead of operating lease. So the difference isn't as simple as one is leased and the other is mortgaged.

Jim

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

I am also curious to know in what world would someones retirement check be tied to the price of oil?
[/quote]


OMG, tell me you are not serious... First off I will start by saying, just b/c you are retired does not mean your retirement is "safe"... Unless NHBB took his retirement in a lump sum, then his pension is definitely in play, ask one of the fellow Deltoid retired brothers... Lets see, how do I explaing how oil is tied to your pension, oh.. I KNOW I KNOW... First off, this goes to show your are truly clueless... If oil goes much higher, many carriers will be in BIG trouble, AA being one of the first ones... Next, you are in labor negotiations, 3 of them, at the same time.. Everybody will be wanting a slice of the pie... With the price of oil rising and already high labor costs, AA could easily agree to a contract and then enter into BK and AXE the pension, and yes my little one, that includes retirees pension as well.. It amazes me how little you people know... As posted previously, the 3rd quarter results.. AA being the lowest, unless something drastically changes, they will be one ofthe first in the negative, especially if oil goes up more and labor gets more expensive... That is how your pension is tied to the price of oil....

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I am also curious to know in what world would someones retirement check be tied to the price of oil?



OMG, tell me you are not serious... First off I will start by saying, just b/c you are retired does not mean your retirement is "safe"... Unless NHBB took his retirement in a lump sum, then his pension is definitely in play, ask one of the fellow Deltoid retired brothers... Lets see, how do I explaing how oil is tied to your pension, oh.. I KNOW I KNOW... First off, this goes to show your are truly clueless... If oil goes much higher, many carriers will be in BIG trouble, AA being one of the first ones... Next, you are in labor negotiations, 3 of them, at the same time.. Everybody will be wanting a slice of the pie... With the price of oil rising and already high labor costs, AA could easily agree to a contract and then enter into BK and AXE the pension, and yes my little one, that includes retirees pension as well.. It amazes me how little you people know... As posted previously, the 3rd quarter results.. AA being the lowest, unless something drastically changes, they will be one ofthe first in the negative, especially if oil goes up more and labor gets more expensive... That is how your pension is tied to the price of oil....

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beauty,

Speaking of HOW MUCH "some" people know/(DON'T FUUKIN' KNOW), a little FYI for ya'.

The DAY I officially started my AA retiree pension, I asked the person at HR, what would happen if AA decided to eliminate retiree pensions ?

"Except for about ...$20 less per month, you'll always get it for LIFE, via the PBGC", the person replied !

So in reality, the only POOR BASTARDS that GOT SCREWED were employeed at LCC + "UAL"

NOW..beauty,..care to go "one on one" with me, over the POWER that the PBGC has Indirectly over any carrier thinking about Dumping pensions of the USA working citizen ??????????????

NO.............I did'nt think so !!!

BUT,..........then again...(YOU are a)...beauty :blink:

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

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beauty,

Speaking of HOW MUCH "some" people know/(DON'T FUUKIN' KNOW), a little FYI for ya'.

The DAY I officially started my AA retiree pension, I asked the person at HR, what would happen if AA decided to eliminate retiree pensions ?

"Except for about ...$20 less per month, you'll always get it for LIFE, via the PBGC", the person replied !

So in reality, the only POOR BASTARDS that GOT SCREWED were employeed at LCC + "UAL"

NOW..beauty,..care to go "one on one" with me, over the POWER that the PBGC has Indirectly over any carrier thinking about Dumping pensions of the USA working citizen ??????????????

NO.............I did'nt think so !!!

BUT,..........then again...(YOU are a)...beauty :blink:

OMG, and you honestly believe your HR person.. Get real, ask those DAL employes (retired ones) how it feels to have halfof what they had to start with... So wpould you, you are no different... Via the PBGC.. LOL, your setting yourself up for a royal screwing...

 

[FWAAA]

OMG, and you honestly believe your HR person.. Get real, ask those DAL employes (retired ones) how it feels to have halfof what they had to start with... So wpould you, you are no different... Via the PBGC.. LOL, your setting yourself up for a royal screwing...

Bears was a ramper who, although he made an honest living, didn't earn enough wages to qualify for a pension large enough to be vulnerable to a termination. Generally, only pilots earn a large enough pension to suffer a haircut in a termination. Unless they retired very early, rampers, mechanics, agents and FAs will always get their earned pension from the PBGC.

But keep peddling the ignorance. You seem to be very good at it.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Bears was a ramper who, although he made an honest living, didn't earn enough wages to qualify for a pension large enough to be vulnerable to a termination. Generally, only pilots earn a large enough pension to suffer a haircut in a termination. Unless they retired very early, rampers, mechanics, agents and FAs will always get their earned pension from the PBGC.

But keep peddling the ignorance. You seem to be very good at it.

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Well what can you expect from a person with a "handle" like................(I'M A REAL)..beauty :blink:

 

[Fly]

Didn't the DAL pilots lose their pension too? So it's really LCC, UAL, and DAL. And all have PBGC but the pilots don't really get much out of it. The rest of ours became frozen when they sent them to the PBGC to no longer acrue which is, from my understanding, what is happening at most carriers anyway, no more accrual.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Bears was a ramper who, although he made an honest living, didn't earn enough wages to qualify for a pension large enough to be vulnerable to a termination. Generally, only pilots earn a large enough pension to suffer a haircut in a termination. Unless they retired very early, rampers, mechanics, agents and FAs will always get their earned pension from the PBGC.

But keep peddling the ignorance. You seem to be very good at it.

Another untruth... F/As for example... It all depends on your age and your length of service.. for example . Someone that is the same seniority and one is much older than the older, they get much more, even if their length of service isn't as much... I just flew with a girl who had more service than the one up front and she was getting 160.00 and the other one was getting nearly 800.00...... Everyone suffers, it just depends your bracket on how badly... You obviously haven't been through it YET and are not that educated on the process, its not as cut and dry as you may think...

 

[FWAAA]

Didn't the DAL pilots lose their pension too? So it's really LCC, UAL, and DAL. And all have PBGC but the pilots don't really get much out of it. The rest of ours became frozen when they sent them to the PBGC to no longer acrue which is, from my understanding, what is happening at most carriers anyway, no more accrual.

Correct. The pilots at all three will get only a fraction of the pension they had already earned, and the already retired pilots got a huge pension paycut, since the PBGC guarantee is much smaller for those who retire at 60 (as the pilots must do) than for those who retire at 65.

Every other employee will get the pension they had earned as of the date of termination. Of course, that might be a much smaller monthly check than they had hoped to get when they eventually retired, but they will get everything they had earned up to the termination date. Already-retired FAs, mechanics, agents and rampers received no pension paycut at all (unlike the pilots) UNLESS they retired early (young) and had lots of years of service. It's possible, for instance, that a mechanic or FA started at, say, age 19 and retired after 40 years of service at age 59 and their check was reduced somewhat because they retired at 59 instead of 65. But they would have had to been receiving a huge monthly pension check for there to be any reduction because of the termination.

And for all the frozen pensions, you're right - there won't be any more accrual. They will get much smaller checks than they had projected - but except for pilots, they'll get a check that matches what they would have received had they retired (or quit or were fired) on the date of termination. Presumably, the difference will be made up with the replacement Defined Contribution plans (including the 401(k)). Of course, that assumes favorable investment returns, which some employees will no doubt experience. Other employees who have bad luck or make poor investment choices won't fare so well.

 

[FWAAA]

Another untruth... F/As for example... It all depends on your age and your length of service.. for example . Someone that is the same seniority and one is much older than the older, they get much more, even if their length of service isn't as much... I just flew with a girl who had more service than the one up front and she was getting 160.00 and the other one was getting nearly 800.00...... Everyone suffers, it just depends your bracket on how badly... You obviously haven't been through it YET and are not that educated on the process, its not as cut and dry as you may think...

I'm sorry that you're mistaken. Must suck to be wrong so often. I don't like it when I'm wrong either. Doesn't happen near as often as with you, but still sucks all the same, so I know how you must feel. My condolences.

United FAs will receive the pension they earned prior to termination. Unlike the pilots, whose earned pensions were slashed because of the relatively small PBGC guarantee, the FAs will receive what they had earned. Might be a lot smaller than they had projected (hoped for), but counting unhatched eggs sometimes leads to such disappointment.

What's apparent here by your post is that you're confusing the earned pension with the projected benefits. Your example discusses projected benefits, not examples of FAs taking a pension paycut (like the pilots did). Understandable that you might be confused about the distinction.

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

I'm sorry that you're mistaken. Must suck to be wrong so often. I don't like it when I'm wrong either. Doesn't happen near as often as with you, but still sucks all the same, so I know how you must feel. My condolences.

United FAs will receive the pension they earned prior to termination. Unlike the pilots, whose earned pensions were slashed because of the relatively small PBGC guarantee, the FAs will receive what they had earned. Might be a lot smaller than they had projected (hoped for), but counting unhatched eggs sometimes leads to such disappointment.

What's apparent here by your post is that you're confusing the earned pension with the projected benefits. Your example discusses projected benefits, not examples of FAs taking a pension paycut (like the pilots did). Understandable that you might be confused about the distinction.

Do you work for UAL as a flight attendant.. Did you have your pension cut?? If everyone was getting what they were owed, then why is everyone in such an uproar? You are so sadly mistaken.. The pilots lost more of course, but the flight attendants also lost alot... If you are imposing that the pilots are the only ones who lost anything and the rest got what they "earned" you are wrong... Lets go out on the line and ask.. If everybody was Getting what they earned then i would suspect people would be happy..

 

[FWAAA]

Active flight attendants (who, by definition, have not retired from UA) lost no earned pension benefits. None. Whatever pension they had earned as of the date of termination will be paid by the PBGC.

Like I said, you (and perhaps lots of other FAs) are confusing earned benefits with projected, hoped-for, if I work til I retire benefits. Common mistake among FAs at any airline, not just UA. Sometimes it's hard to stop counting those unhatched eggs.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Active flight attendants (who, by definition, have not retired from UA) lost no earned pension benefits. None. Whatever pension they had earned as of the date of termination will be paid by the PBGC.

Like I said, you (and perhaps lots of other FAs) are confusing earned benefits with projected, hoped-for, if I work til I retire benefits. Common mistake among FAs at any airline, not just UA. Sometimes it's hard to stop counting those unhatched eggs.

Here boys and girls......try this:

http://www.pbgc.gov/workers-retirees/benef...nt/page789.html