Delta opens line hangar at NRT.

[WorldTraveler]

and again, that says NOTHING about DL's presence in the US to Japan or Japan beach markets other than the SFO flight. Given that UA eliminated its SEA-NRT flight, all DL and UA did is focus on their own strengths in their west coast hubs

all DL's moves do is confirm that DL has rerouted its traffic in a number of markets VIA NRT while increasing them on nonstop.

AA, DL, and UA have ALL increased their presence in US to China and Korea markets.

NH and JL have also eliminated 744s and larger aircraft. The 787s that JL is flying are only slightly larger than DL's 767s and about comparable in size to the 332s which DL is using on multiple US-Asia routes.

It is YOUR detachment from reality to argue that reduced aircraft size to Japan while everyone else is doing the same thing. It is an equal misinterpretation of the facts to believe that DL's reduced presence BEYOND NRT has translated into reduced presence in the local US-Japan and Japan beach markets.

It has not.

thank you for showing us the basis of your arguments. Your logic is flawed and incomplete.

DL inherited an ouststanding Japanese network from NW. DL is restructuring it, not abandoning it. DL is also not abandoning or reducing its presence in the local US-Japan market or the Japan beach markets.

and as much as you cannot comprehend it, the increase of new flights by all carriers including AA, DL, and UA plus Chinese carriers threaten to further weaken the Japanese carriers more than US carriers; Japanese carriers cannot or will not start US to China flights while US carriers can shift connections to their own nonstops.

The very reason why AA does not even offer nonstop service from its 3 Asian hubs to NRT on a daily, year round basis is because AA, not DL, cannot compete in the US Japan market relative to its much larger peers. AA has a smaller share of the US-Japan market than it had several years ago because they are shifting their strategy to China markets - which is great. The difference between AA and both DL and UA is that DL and UA have not lost their presence in the US-Japan market in the process of increasing their presence in other parts of Asia.

Your repeated incorrect statements about what DL is doing in Japan are clearly based on your desire that DL end up in exactly the same position in Japan as AA has.

specific to this topic, DL has a large enough position in Japan that it apparently can justify a hangar at NRT. It is not clear how long DL's hangar lease is for but they obviously believe they can accomplish more than what they can do without it or by renting hangar space on an ad hoc basis.

The fact that dawg confirms that even though NRT maintenance is no TOC, it is more than just a simple line maintenance station says that DL does use the time its aircraft pass thru NRT in order to accomplish meaningful maintenance, including for aircraft that remain in Asia for extended periods of time, as the Asian 757s do.

 

[commavia]

Simply incredible.  Some people - still! - cannot accept reality.
 
Again - who said anything about "DL's presence in the US to Japan or Japan beach markets," or the ability of AA to fly ORD-NRT daily, etc.?
 
Delta's presence in Japan has been, and continues to be, on the decline as it dismantles the NRT hub and shifts more Asia flying to SEA.  This is beyond debate for anybody who's being honest.  And no hangar at NRT will change that.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL's presence in Japan is no smaller relative to any other carrier there.

If you would bother to state that AA and JL are both far smaller airlines than they were in the US-Japan market than they were five years ago, then your posts would have some credibility.

to argue that DL is losing is incorrect and you have repeatedly said that because that is what you want to happen.

To say that the entire market for all players is shrinking including both because of Japan's decreased role for connections and the yen devaluation IS correct - but that would require that you admit that AA's JV with JL is a shrinking enterprise but you can't do that.

Let us know when you can honestly and objectively discuss the issues.

DL is maintaining its position in a shrinking market.

The hangar is evidence that DL has no intention of abandoning the beach and TPAC markets in which it is the dominant carrier.

The hangar will be there because DL intends to have a Japan-based operation for many years to come.

AA will not even have a handful of flights to Japan and at best only two of them from DFW alone that make money while LAX and ORD are subsidized and maintained solely for market presence.

Now, are you willing to say that Japan is a shrinking market for all carriers and that DL's relative position is unchanged?

that is the only accurate statement that can be made. Everything else you want to say about DL's demise is your unobjective bias.

 

[commavia]

I never used the word "relative."  Delta's presence in Japan is shrinking, and has been for years.  Period.  The reasons why are well known, and were explained nearly five years ago.
 
As for where things stand today, the reality is that Delta is not "dominant" in any "TPAC markets" other than those to its hubs and/or where it has a monopoly - SEA, PDX, MSP, DTW and ATL.  So by that definition, the AA/JAL JV is "dominant" to DFW, BOS and SAN, and the United/ANA JV "dominant" to IAD.  Good for them.  In every other "TPAC market" out of NRT served by Delta - LAX, JFK and HNL - Delta is hardly "dominant."  And as for the beach markets, as I've said repeatedly - congratulations to Delta on being "dominant" to SPN and ROR, and in second place to GUM.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Delta's presence in Japan has been, and continues to be, on the decline as it dismantles the NRT hub and shifts more Asia flying to SEA.  This is beyond debate for anybody who's being honest.  And no hangar at NRT will change that.

 
Why are you letting facts destroy WT's DL uber alles narrative???

 

[eolesen]

I'm still trying to figure out why they think paying hangar rent on a monthly basis makes sense.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and the reason that you haven't and won't use the word "relative" is why you are wrong, commavia, unless you want to admit that everyone is losing in the US Japan market.

The market is shrinking. DL's size relative to its competitors is unchanged.

And, yes, DL is the largest carrier from the US to Japan. feel free to not use the word dominant but then the same definition has to be used to describe AA in LAX. AA has a smaller share of the LAX market than DL does at NRT.

as for the hangar, dawg explained that even for the intra-Asian aircraft, there is maintenance done for which a hangar provides increased capabilities. DL has managed without one which I noted. If there are widebody aircraft that are intentionally rotated thru NRT and left as a spare, then there is even more basis for doing maintenance and for using a hangar.

 

[commavia]

Once again, let's move the goalposts.  Saying Delta is the "largest carrier from the US to Japan" is different than saying Delta is "dominant" in "TPAC" markets out of NRT - which of course is laughably untrue.  But either way, please let me know when you find a quote where I ever said that AA was "dominant" at LAX.  Still trying to distract from ridiculous comments and failed predictions.  How sad.

 

[WorldTraveler]

feel free to give us a definition of dominant.

but even if you want to call it "majority" then AA is not dominant at NYC, ORD, or LAX.

DL IS the largest airline from Japan to the US in the same manner that US/AA is the largest airline from LAX or DCA - a divided market where there is no clear dominant carrier - nor will there ever be.

If you want to acknowledge that DL is the largest airline from Japan to the US and in the Japan beach markets including Hawaii (which is also in the US category), then we are fine.

If you want to argue that DL is shrinking then make absolutely sure you note that the market as a whole is shrinking as well.

 

[Kev3188]

 

NWA had hangar space at NRT, SEA, JFK, LAX, BOS, DTW, ATL, MSP, I may have missed a few, SFO (Superbay) as needed,

CMH & ORD (I think?)... Maybe 1 or 2 others?

I am not sure why this is news. I guess it is for Delta, but it is just a resumption of what we always had at Northwest (Orient).

'Cause if it happened at NW, it never actually happened...

 

[WorldTraveler]

and tell us Kev why and when did NW get rid of those hangars?

and why would it not matter what happened at NW?

I, for one, have repeatedly noted that NW did an outstanding job of building hubs at NRT, MSP, and DTW which DL continues to see value in and which DL will vigorously defend.

If what NW did at NRT didn't matter, then DL would have walked away from NRT.

They haven't. in fact, DL has fought to get into HND, an airport which so far as I know, a DL aircraft never landed in before the merger but where NW's hub used to exist.

if DL didn't care about Tokyo, MSP, and DTW and all of the cities in the Northern Tier where NW is very strong and which combined with DL has made DL the dominant airline in more of the northern US than NW ever was able to do.

that is the strength of the merger and no one has ever said DL could do what it did and is doing without NW.

BTW, you might have just missed that DL just named a new Brazilian to DL's board who also happened to work in, wait, wait, Minnesota.

 

[commavia]

First off, once again, rather than introducing babbling incoherence to muddy the waters, nobody - certainly not me - ever seriously called AA "dominant" at NYC, ORD or LAX.
 
Second, good for Delta for being the "largest airline from Japan to the US," but if they're in the lead at all it's a narrow lead that is almost certain to (continue to) decline along with the NRT operation.
 
Finally, as to what will "ever be," we don't know what lies ahead, but what we do know is that AA has, or soon will have, control over essentially twice the gate space at LAX as Delta, and that all of the gate space adjacent or near to Delta's existing LAX operations are sown up and not available unless AA and/or United liquidates.  So unless Delta starts heavily using TBIT, or the north side of LAX, it appears fairly safe to conclude that, indeed, AA may well be able to become the clear market leader, if not potentially even the clearly "dominant" market leader, in the next few years.
 
The trend lines, by contrast, at NRT and in Japan point in the exact opposite direction for Delta: as JAL and ANA have grown their schedules, using 787s, their hubs in TYO, and their hometown advantage to add new routes and frequencies (i.e., ANA's second ORD, ANA's and JAL's second JFK, BOS and SAN, etc.), Delta has been in pretty much nonstop retrenchment mode for years - shrinking capacity and cutting route after route (except the HND flights).
 
It is reality.  It is not debatable.  But it is difficult for some to accept, whether Delta does line maintenance in a hangar at NRT or not.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you just cannot admit that DL has as much of a lead in the US to Japan market as AA has in LAX, can you?

either whatever size in LAX doesn't matter or DL is indeed larger in Japan and that leadership matters.

And you still fixate on schedules despite the fact that they mean nothing.

You can't argue that DL is shrinking its presence in the TPAC market from Japan and then point to JL and NH's schedules as evidence that they are growing.

you have no evidence that they are growing in the local US-Japan market - and in fact, they are not gaining against DL.

The only thing that is debatable is that you have a complete inability to admit the fact that DL is not giving up on a market that you have been hoping against hope they would lose in.

give it up and focus on something else.

 

[eolesen]

give it up and focus on something else.

Hmmm, when I said that a few days ago, you were crying "you'll never shut me up!" to the heavens (and moderators).

Then again, I guess it's OK for you to decide when a topic has been beaten to death. Anyone who says that to you is simply a hater.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I have walked away from plenty of topics - but the basis of what commavia is wrong.

If he were right, I would have no problem with him saying what he wants to say over and over again.

either DL is the largest airline from the US to Japan or size doesn't matter anywhere.

Either the Japan-US market is shrinking for everyone or it doesn't matter.

There is no way he can argue one side of the coin but not the other.