Delta loads new DAL flights

[WorldTraveler]

Police state? Tell me how many IAM organizers have been shot or beaten. We don't even call Ukraine and Russia police states (normally) but that is what they did to their citizens.

DL, not so much, even if you want to believe otherwise.

DL's share of the total DFW and DAL Market would grow if it served both airports. VX doesn't intend to serve both airports which is exactly what I said - B6 or VX would not Split their operations.

Yes, Spirit is rapidly growing passenger growth but DL's average fares are 2nd only to UA's (which has a more western oriented route system from DFW) and higher than AA's. DL and UA lift proportionately more of their weight in N. Texas despite their size while most of the LFC/LCCs/cheap Airlines simply carry alot of passengers while moving a fraction of the revenue that any of other Airlines do. Notably, VX does have average fares that are close to what AA carries.

The fact that VX would rather compete against WN than AA - perhaps because they will serve at least a couple markets that WN hasn't said they will serve (we'll see how long SFO stays off WN's list) says more about the opportunity that DL has to expand.

AA doesn't fully match WN's most direct fares because WN can't carry the passengers. AA's current competitive threat comes from B6 and VX who directly compete on AA routes from DFW and in both cases they carry healthy double digit shares at average fares that are alot closer to AA's, with VX again far closer than B6.

We can go around on what is legal or not. DL might or might not challenge the DOJ but I believe they have every reason to do so or the government will think it has the right to reregulate Airlines based on a desired price outcome.

Your argument about new or small carriers Works at DCA and LGA but doesn't hold water at DAL.

The chances are indeed high that DL will end up with gates at DAL in some form, perhaps not for 22 flights/day.

And at HND and GRU, the airports do provide gates and slots that are inline with the treaties that exist with the US. DL is ONLY asking to be treated at a US airport the same good way it is treated at GRU and HND.

 

[topDawg]

700 you are correct.  VA has a much, much better shot than DL.  First of all, VA is considered a LCC (I think).  Plus they will bring in the Airbus fleet which can better compete against the 37's SWA is using.  Plus VA said they would pull out of DFW if they were to win the LF gates.  Now the fight will be between SWA and VA.  DL is just along for the ride.  Who ever wins said gates will prevail from any and all of DL's customers that they have already sold tickets to (and poss  illegally), as they will have to refund their monies and explain why they cannot fly them out of LF.

nothing illegal about it. Its in the small print. It happens all the time. 
 
Delta *should* get the gates. They have a much better network than VX does.......
 
having said that, I still expect WN or VX to get the gates because the DOT is corrupt as all get out.  

 

[swamt]

Dawg, The only reason I said illegal, is because I was told that this was an issue brought up at the nego's between DL, SWA, and the city of Dallas over the gates in question.  I have no idea if anything will come about it, however, I do know this was being discussed. 
 
NEVER have I ever supported VX.  I have simply said VX has a much, much better chance at the LF gates than DL will ever have.  My bet with WT was if it came down between DL and SWA for the 2 gates at LF.  Now that VX is involved, and has much more credentials than DL for the gates, it would be a toss up.  Again I can only hope that the city of Dallas would stand with SWA for the history.  But, I really can't see them blocking VX from coming in to compete. 
Give it up WT, DL is out of the loop at this point.  If any other LCC Airline was to announce participation for the LF gates (say Spirit) then DL will just move that much further down the totum pole for considerations...   Pls stop trying to twist my words.  And BTW; SWA and AA has been competing for decades out of the N. Tx. market, and we are doing just fine.  What makes anyone think SWA would be worried about anyone else moving in?  VX is considering running from AA at DFW.  DL has already ran from DFW and AA when they shut down in 2004.  Now, WT thinks DL will come into LF and compete against SWA,  hahahahaha,  NOT going to happen---PERIOD, watch and learn, DL WILL NOT get the gates at LF...

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA and WN have most definitely carved up the Market from N. Texas instead of aggressively competing. STL and MCI are the only two markets that AA and WN serve from DFW and DAL and in which both have a somewhat equal share. AA dominates the longhaul domestic markets from N. Texas which WN has not been able to serve while WN dominates the shorthaul markets which it can serve when looking at the combined N. Texas (DAL plus DFW Market)

I am not arguing that WN won't do well. I have repeatedly said they would. But the idea that WN needs the gates is completely unsupported by evidence that WN dominates its markets far more than any legacy carrier does. While VX wants to compete with WN instead of AA where it has done relatively well is beyond me.

VX is not adding flights other than what it will get as a result of the slot deal.
They threw ORD in there to try to add a key Market which WN won't serve but they know full well they are totally dependente on DOJ handouts in order to create a large enough schedule at DAL.

It is still very possible that DL might choose to sue over access to DAL if it can't continue even its ATL service at times that are economically viable - not just sandwiched between every other carrier. UA might walk away, esp. if VX starts ORD which might be what VX is counting. UA right now doesn't use its gates enough to justify holding onto two gates.

The entire concept of the WA was built around carving up the N. Texas Market and it has been reinforced by the 2006 five party agrément (which didn't include other carriers).

 

[topDawg]

Dawg, The only reason I said illegal, is because I was told that this was an issue brought up at the nego's between DL, SWA, and the city of Dallas over the gates in question.  I have no idea if anything will come about it, however, I do know this was being discussed. 
 
NEVER have I ever supported VX.  I have simply said VX has a much, much better chance at the LF gates than DL will ever have.  My bet with WT was if it came down between DL and SWA for the 2 gates at LF.  Now that VX is involved, and has much more credentials than DL for the gates, it would be a toss up.  Again I can only hope that the city of Dallas would stand with SWA for the history.  But, I really can't see them blocking VX from coming in to compete. 
Give it up WT, DL is out of the loop at this point.  If any other LCC Airline was to announce participation for the LF gates (say Spirit) then DL will just move that much further down the totum pole for considerations...   Pls stop trying to twist my words.  And BTW; SWA and AA has been competing for decades out of the N. Tx. market, and we are doing just fine.  What makes anyone think SWA would be worried about anyone else moving in?  VX is considering running from AA at DFW.  DL has already ran from DFW and AA when they shut down in 2004.  Now, WT thinks DL will come into LF and compete against SWA,  hahahahaha,  NOT going to happen---PERIOD, watch and learn, DL WILL NOT get the gates at LF...

I have heard all the talk. No offense but from what I gather its most WN/Dallas blowing smoke trying to start a fire. Dallas wants WN to have the gates and the DOJ/DOT doesn't give a crap what the city wants. 
 
Having said that somewhere DL has put *subject to government approval* on there in some form. That makes it legal. (right? eh... but legal) 
 
Anyways, My understanding is if DAL doesn't happen Delta will move forward with LAX-DFW on the same date (all the other cities have capacity to DFW) and will simply shift or refund. 
 
the rest I agree with. Delta is still only going to have flights to its hubs from DAL/DFW. AA/WN will remain king dog. Delta isn't going to take over the world. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

well said... but DL's hubs are all in the top 20 markets... and DL doesn't consider LAX a hub (so far as I know) but they plan to add service there from DAL... but you are right that DAL will likely get it one way or another, esp. if VX moves.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. VX hasn't won the gates - and their bid might be part of an attempt by Branson to force a DL acquisition of VX.

VX has a very dense group of assets for an airline of its size with these new slots along with its LAX and SFO gates.

 

[topDawg]

well said... but DL's hubs are all in the top 20 markets... and DL doesn't consider LAX a hub (so far as I know) but they plan to add service there from DAL... but you are right that DAL will likely get it one way or another, esp. if VX moves.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. VX hasn't won the gates - and their bid might be part of an attempt by Branson to force a DL acquisition of VX.

VX has a very dense group of assets for an airline of its size with these new slots along with its LAX and SFO gates.

Never going to happen. 
VX is a money pit and Virgin Group doesn't own enough to push this. Even if it were true, it doesn't mean Delta would get to keep the gates. (and very little chance the DOJ would allow it. Right now VX and DL overlap more than they don't. (heck only ORD/IAD and PHL aren't Delta routes from LAX.) 
 
LAX/SEA are hubs that aren't hubs. LAX has more flights a day than CVG does now. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....etc. 

 

[Kev3188]

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. VX hasn't won the gates - and their bid might be part of an attempt by Branson to force a DL acquisition of VX.

Let's take a step back here for a sec. DL is well equipped strategically, but how many battle fronts can we realistically expect them to fight on? We have:

NYC
The "battle for Seattle."
The accordant fight with AS
The quest for DAL gates (and possible lawsuit)

and now a possible bid for VX?

Yeah, I know the last one is just a trial balloon being floated on here. Still, it begs the larger question of just how thin DL is willing to spread itself to do all this.


 
 

Never going to happen. 
VX is a money pit and Virgin Group doesn't own enough to push this. Even if it were true, it doesn't mean Delta would get to keep the gates. (and very little chance the DOJ would allow it. Right now VX and DL overlap more than they don't. (heck only ORD/IAD and PHL aren't Delta routes from LAX.) 
 
LAX/SEA are hubs that aren't hubs. LAX has more flights a day than CVG does now. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....etc.

Money pit is right. If it's too cheap to pass up, I can maybe see it, but IMO, that would have to be at pennies on the dollar.

As for the hubs: Not for nothing, but if you look on the ACS (and OCC pages, I think) of our employee website, SEA is now listed with the ones (MSP, DTW, etc.)...

 

[WorldTraveler]

obviously a VX bid if it happened would be if DL couldn't get what it needs to do otherwise, including DAL gates.
 
DL issued a statement yesterday saying it believes DL and VX can both achieve their goals at DAL.  Perhaps they know something we don't.
 
http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=2291
 
DL's NYC buildup is nearly thru as a major initiative - it now moves into tweaking and tearing down Terminal 2 once the next T4 extension is done.
 
DL has planned to grow LAX regardless of gaining more gates so they don't feel like they need to stop.
Other carriers have been reluctant to call LAX a hub because it is much more local market focused but DL and AA both are growing as aggressively as they can there.  I don't think either call LAX a hub - but I agree it is a larger operation than some hubs. 

 

[swamt]

No, no, no WT.  DL does not know something.  They are now simply scared that VX put in their bid for the LF gates.  Because VX MEETS all the requirements, by the DOJ, to win the bid for the gates.  They (VX) are not illegally selling tickets for gates they never know they will get, and they are a LCC (not LFC).   DL is simply realizing they are now losing ground in the bidding for the LF gates. And DL is now releasing your said statement, as they are praying that they could at least end up with one of the two gates.  DL is now starting to get desperate, just like the selling the tickets so they can say, "hey, we have already sold tickets for these gates, you gotta give them to us",  NOT going to work, but, it was a nice try.  At least VX is approaching the process in a more professional manor.  VX has put notice in and will bid and has stayed completely out of the media and news articles until the results are announced, as SWA has done the same. 
Once again the decision will be made by "the city of Dallas" and then approved by the DOJ as long as all antitrust laws are followed, then they will approve.  
The fight for the 2 gates to be awarded will now be between SWA and VX which are both LCC airlines, DL is off the radar for the gates.  There still could be another LCC late entry (note, I called for this one) because the final decision does not have to be made until 180 days after the merger date of Dec. 9th 2013, which will put us at June 2014.  Good luck my friend, your, and DL, is really going to need it in order to be awarded these 2 gates.  Now we wait and see, only time will tell...

 

[WorldTraveler]

first of all, other than DL's first statement on the day of the DOJ divestiture announcement, DL has said nothing.  WN has indeed said it needs the gates -  in public.
 
 
WE have been fighting the issue repeatedly on here.
 
 
You may be right that DL is realizing the cost of fighting isn't worth it esp. since the real purpose of the asset transfers is to open market opportunities that otherwise would not exist.
 
The real test is who wins in the marketplace.
 
As I have repeatedly noted and you have been unable to counter, DL has a strong track record of winning in the marketplace against WN and AA and that is where they will focus their competitive efforts at N. Texas.
 
DL's presence in N. Texas will expand and the AA, WN duopoly in N. Texas is being broken which is good for consumers.  Whether it ends out the way you or I have wanted, the DOJ is accomplishing what it set out to do. 
 
And because DL is pushing on UA for the gate solution doesn't mean that they can't or won't challenge the issue legally.  There is absolutely no legal basis for saying that an LCC should be given preferential access to gates at an airport that is already dominated by an LCC.
 
IF DL chooses not to pursue the legal issue, it is because they have another plan to achieve what they want to do.
 
You can't seem to grasp that DL is about winning in the marketplace first and foremost and they have an exceedingly strong track record of doing that since emerging from BK and merging.  There is a reason why DL's stock continues to grow based on positive analyst statements and its market cap is pushing $30B, almost twice as high as AA and WN combined. 
 
You have been hoping that an LCC would bid for the gates and against DL but it only means that you have yet one more airline to compete against.
VX' mode is NOT to compete against other LCCs but against legacy carriers. 
 
You can throw the "illegally selling" seats around but DAL and DFW are listed as co-terminals in DL's tariffs as are BWI/DCA/WAS etc.  Bringing up the issue is just one more strategy that WN has tried to use to keep the gates for itself.
 
The only thing that seems pretty clear is that WN won't be able to gain access to the additional gates at DAL. 
 
SO when can we expect the headquarters to be moved out of DAL?  or was someone just full of hot air? 

 

[eolesen]

There is absolutely no legal basis for saying that an LCC should be given preferential access to gates at an airport that is already dominated by an LCC.
 
IF DL chooses not to pursue the legal issue, it is because they have another plan to achieve what they want to do.

For someone who was working on their doctorate (if not already completed), you really can't pretend to be this ignorant anymore, WT....

1) The DOJ isn't giving preferential treatment to a LCC. They're giving preferential treatment to a new entrant, a disadvantaged enterprise, or however else you want to label one of the handful of carriers who don't command 15% or greater domestic market share.

2) If DL chooses not to pursue the legal issue, it's because they don't have the standing to be able to do so.

3) Any transaction involving DL and someone who got AA assets from their divestment **WILL** be challenged and see those assets re-divested. It's dumb to even suggest that as "a way to get what they want".

 

[700UW]

December of 2013 DL and NK are tied with 3.6% of market share but NK carried 4,000 more passengers than DL.
 
So much for DL and their market share.

 

[eolesen]

Careful -- DL probably had some weather cancellations that NK didn't.

DL has the flexability to cancel when NK can't. NK doesn't have a whole lot of interline agreements or options for rerouting, so they have to tough it out. Small airline manage that better than the big ones do.

 

[Kev3188]

Perhaps they know something we don't.

Maybe, but I doubt it. This strikes me as nothing more than continued posturing.
 

No, no, no WT.  DL does not know something.  They are now simply scared that VX put in their bid for the LF gates.  Because VX MEETS all the requirements, by the DOJ, to win the bid for the gates.  They (VX) are not illegally selling tickets for gates they never know they will get, and they are a LCC (not LFC).   DL is simply realizing they are now losing ground in the bidding for the LF gates. And DL is now releasing your said statement, as they are praying that they could at least end up with one of the two gates.  DL is now starting to get desperate, just like the selling the tickets so they can say, "hey, we have already sold tickets for these gates, you gotta give them to us",  NOT going to work, but, it was a nice try.  At least VX is approaching the process in a more professional manor.  VX has put notice in and will bid and has stayed completely out of the media and news articles until the results are announced, as SWA has done the same. 
Once again the decision will be made by "the city of Dallas" and then approved by the DOJ as long as all antitrust laws are followed, then they will approve.

Indeed.