Delta Bankruptcy

[luv2fly]

IMHO you should take a good look over to UA and U. Get used to their trouble and uncertainty. You at DL will soon join their ranks in having to give up more than you wanted unless a sudden stroke of common sense will hit you and you realize that you are overpaid and to ignorant to realize it.

Just look at the CASM:

DL $0.1048
HP $0.0786
WN $ 0.0760
B6 $ 0.0608


And also look at your pilot salaries. A DL Pilot in the first year makes more than a pilot at any other US carrier (except NW and they might follow you very soon too) in their 12th year. If that is not well over the average and you don’t realize that you have to give in and back than you don’t deserve anything else than going into Ch11!

What are the post concession CASM's for AA, US, and United?

 

[Just Plane Crazy]

What are the post concession CASM's for AA, US, and United?

As of last month the #'s are as following:

AA $0.1015
UA $0.1050
US $0.1136


LEts wait till all of tem file their 10K and we will see.

 

[mweiss]

Crazy, when calculating CASM, what costs apply? Based on your supplied numbers, it appears to be a subset of operating expenses.

 

[local 12 proud]

have a friend who works maintenance at dfw for delta and he thinks the pilots will finally come to their sense's before its too late, and as for the other non-union groups the company would prefer to leave them alone in order to hold off the unions. hope all goes well for delta, this industry has taken a severe beating!

 

[Whadayano]

The 10-K's will be misleading (though all have been filed) as concessions were in effect only part of last year. Also when looking at CASM you can be fooled by stage length--WN's Casm at AMR's stage length, or B6's, would have a 5 handle in front, not a 7. The 10-Q's for Q 1 will be a better comparison, but again look out for stage length differences.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Delta pilots had better get used to the concept that the company that issues the checks has the right to pay its people what it wants, not what the people want to be paid. Collective bargaining may slow the inevitable pay cuts but they will come evenutally. Name one company in the history of business that has ever paid labor more than it wanted to and provided long-term jobs for those employees... And don't think that the company will be forced to reduce non-pilot wages in bankruptcy in order to get lower pilot wages. Companies petition the court the terminate labor contracts and reduce the costs the company wants to reduce. Labor is not given the opportunity to say what costs it wants to reduce and you can use formerly employee-owned UAL Corporation as an example. Delta will get the pilot costs it wants or will redefine its relationship with the pilots alone.

 

[Winglet]

You cannot enter into BK for the purpose of negating labor contracts.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bankruptcy isn't the only method Delta could use to reduce pilot wages. Remember, collective bargaining has an end point and provides options for both labor and a company.

No you don't enter bankruptcy just to negate labor contracts but that certainly will occur if Delta ends up in bankrtupcy. Given that pilot wages are really the only major item that DAL would reduce in bankruptcy, it is probably pretty unlikely they would enter bankrtuptcy largely with the intent of reducing pilot wages. DAL owns a higher percentage of its fleet than other carriers, including the most valuable newer aircraft so fewer leases could be renegotiated. DAL has no recent expensive terminal projects that it could walk away from. DAL's non-labor costs except pension obligations are generally in-line with the rest of the industry. And DAL is paying its current debt obligations, most of which are unsecured. If DAL wanted to dump the unsecured debt, they would not wait another year when big debt payments will have already been made. If the pilots drain the company, however, all bets are off.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Delta pilots had better get used to the concept that the company that issues the checks has the right to pay its people what it wants, not what the people want to be paid. Collective bargaining may slow the inevitable pay cuts but they will come evenutally. Name one company in the history of business that has ever paid labor more than it wanted to and provided long-term jobs for those employees... And don't think that the company will be forced to reduce non-pilot wages in bankruptcy in order to get lower pilot wages. Companies petition the court the terminate labor contracts and reduce the costs the company wants to reduce. Labor is not given the opportunity to say what costs it wants to reduce and you can use formerly employee-owned UAL Corporation as an example. Delta will get the pilot costs it wants or will redefine its relationship with the pilots alone.

World Traveler;

Quote:

"Name ONE company in the history of business that has EVER paid labor MORE than it wanted to"

Thats an EASY one.

"The west coast maritime shippers assoc." (NOT THERE REAL NAME, but "you get my drift"

The west coast longshoremen, NEVER "get screwed" by shipper's assoc.

The shippers either come up with the majority of the Union's demands, OR after DUMBYA 's imposed Taft-Hartley injunction runs out, the ships SIT tied up to a pier, others SIT at anchorage(NOT ALASKA), and the "perishables" ROT in the containers !!!!!!!!!!!

It's really quite simple.
Management "caves in", and passes the cost's on to the consumer.

Former Union legend Ol' HARRY BRIDGES definitely knew what he was doing, when he set up that union. Dockworkers(with very FEW college degrees) making 100-150K, and hardly "breaking a sweat" (Almost everythings CONTAINERIZED) !!!!!!!!

Only in America !!

NH/BB's

 

[WorldTraveler]

NHBB,
The west coast maritime shippers assoc. isn't a company and the only reason they got what they want is because they represent enough of the workers to effectively control the port. There is no labor union that represents enough airline workers or controls the business process enough to control the price of labor. ALPA comes close but they clearly don't have control of the bankrtupcy process or arbitration and medication. OPEC may be able to influence fuel prices worldwide by controlling the supply of oil but airline labor cannot ultimately control the price management is willing to pay.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NHBB,
The west coast maritime shippers assoc. isn't a company and the only reason they got what they want is because they represent enough of the workers to effectively control the port. There is no labor union that represents enough airline workers or controls the business process enough to control the price of labor. ALPA comes close but they clearly don't have control of the bankrtupcy process or arbitration and medication. OPEC may be able to influence fuel prices worldwide by controlling the supply of oil but airline labor cannot ultimately control the price management is willing to pay.

WorldTraveler;
Please allow me to point out a lil' misprint, on your last post.

It SHOULD have read, "That they CONTROL the ENTIRE West Coast of the United States of America !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That(my friend) is a REAL UNION !!!

NH/BB's

 

[LiveInAHotel]

I will take an additional pay cut if it is necessary...

Trust me you will in a BIG WAY!!! You might want to tell your friend aislehopper about the paycuts coming to a DL f/a near you. She can't understand how DL can just take your money. I will spell it out for the both of you again...

N* C*NTR*CT! Care to buy a vowel?

 

[aislehopper]

I see you are back from timeout and are wasting no time. Your post begs one question.

Your contract at AA helped you avoid a paycut HOW?

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I see you are back from timeout and are wasting no time. Your post begs one question.

Your contract at AA helped you avoid a paycut HOW?

Aislehopper;
I certainly could NOT argue with your point, about how "hotel's" union (APFA), saved him from a paycut, nor could I defend my union (TWU) from saving me, from paycuts.

I gues it comes to (almost) "splitting hairs", as to which is worse(in BAD times) ?

A. "$hitty" union(s).
or
B. No union.

(IMHO) "NO" union, is worse,for the employee !!

NH/BB's

 

[Oneflyer]

The plan fact is that pay will be what the market can bear. If a company can't be profitable paying its employees "X" amount then wage rates will decrease. No union can change that. A union can hang on a couple of years and force the company into bankruptcy, but wages will be set by the market, not by the union.

Unions pray on undereducated membership's fears and ignorance. They blame everything bad that happens on "management" and claim to protect jobs when in fact they can do little to nothing to protect them.

Paying union dues is the equivalent to flushing money down the toilet.