Delta Announces Summer '10 flying

[BABABOOY]

BTW Dig, wonder where/what your dues are spent on?
I just received another link to the "Ave Joe" YouTube video.
Sickening how they treat you if you disagree with them.

 

[Dignity]

BTW Dig, wonder where/what your dues are spent on?

oh who knows anymore!

anyhoo back on the original subject!

I was talking to a friend this afternoon and she told me that we can fly each other's aircraft after the SOC but I dont think we can. (just basing this on what happened with the NWO/RAL) that kept both groups separate and were limited to their pre-merger aircraft until a combined contract.

to my understanding the Pilots have a 5 year agreement that prevents each other from transferring to each others aircraft, with the exception should they replace a 747-400 with a 777 (one for one), those pilots (former NW) would be able to take those positions on that aircraft.

if they position a 777 at DTW, but it is staffed with PMDL pilots can a PMNW Flight Attendant bid that aircraft (while the current AFA agreement is still active?) my first thought would be probably not, unless that aircraft was a 747-400 that was replaced with a 777 due to the fact the 747-400 was taken out of service.

if that was the case then a former NW pilot would be able to acquire those seats, and the PMNW Flight Attendant would be able to bid that particular aircraft that one 777, not all 777.

I wonder about the technicalities of that would be?

we have a contract that says we follow the NW Pilots, the Pilots have an agreement that says they are locked into their aircraft for 5 years..just because an SOC is issued does not mean any line in the active Flight Attendant contract changes. so I wonder would the PMNW still follow what the former PMNW Pilots fly during that five year period? and that would remain in place until

1. representational issues are resolved the combined group declines representation, we fly all equipment after SOC.

2. we fly only our aircraft during the five year period based on the language in the PMNW contract for that 5 year period or up to the point or until there is a contract for the combined group?

it does not seem very clear to me..

 

[BABABOOY]

I believe it is clear:
From Joanne's recent letter
"While all flight attendants will be qualified to fly all aircraft of the new Delta, we will not be able to mix crews until representation issues are resolved and we have one single seniority list. "

 

[Dignity]

I believe it is clear:
From Joanne's recent letter
"While all flight attendants will be qualified to fly all aircraft of the new Delta, we will not be able to mix crews until representation issues are resolved and we have one single seniority list. "

well they cannot mix crews thats understandable but after the SOC has been issued can PMNW fly PMDL equipment with an active contract that states we follow PMNW pilots with their 5 year requirement? or can we fly your aircraft positioned at our bases, but PMDL would not deadhead and we fly it simply because the SOC is satisfied and we are trained and visa versa.

I wonder if that means the satellites close after the SOC?

 

[DalMD88]

Why does every thread turn into a union thread? Why not talk about if we think these routes will make us money? That is the point of the airline.

 

[Dignity]

Why does every thread turn into a union thread?

its sort of like multi-tasking,

(you can talk about a lot of things at the same time)

(multi-taking...you learn that when you work on the DC9 or you will fast...)

Why not talk about if we think these routes will make us money? That is the point of the airline.

the point or purpose of the airline is to transport you from point to point as of course that is the reason people fly!

then of course you want to be able to do that, fast, friendly and efficiently paying attention to all
the details at the same time!

keeping focused a sound business plans that is profitable in order to continue transporting people from point to point serving the communities while enabling success for all employees!

that's the whole point! not just the money its the customer service!

 

[goodgirl37]

its sort of like multi-tasking,

(you can talk about a lot of things at the same time)

(multi-taking...you learn that when you work on the DC9 or you will fast...)



the point or purpose of the airline is to transport you from point to point as of course that is the reason people fly!

then of course you want to be able to do that, fast, friendly and efficiently paying attention to all
the details at the same time!

keeping focused a sound business plans that is profitable in order to continue transporting people from point to point serving the communities while enabling success for all employees!

that's the whole point! not just the money its the customer service!

Actually, if you will look, Dignity, just likes to talk.. dignity responds like three times to every post... sad....

 

[Dignity]

Actually, if you will look, Dignity, just likes to talk.

well in this particular venue its considered typing not talking!

well. dignity responds like three times to every post... sad....

you are just precious!


:hugs:

P.S.
I really believe in real time.. you are a nice person.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

A couple of things:
1. BB--what you quoted does NOT address the issue of whether PMDL f/a's can fly PMNW a/c on June 1, '10. It merely states that crews can not be mixed. See the full quote below:

"All flight attendants from both pre-merger airlines will be trained to operate all aircraft types in the combined fleet when Aircraft Qualification (AQ) training is finished in March 2010. That means pre-merger Delta flight attendants will be qualified to fly the 747 and A330, and pre-merger Northwest flight attendants will be qualified to fly the 767 and 777, among others."
"While all flight attendants will be qualified to fly all aircraft of the new Delta, we will not be able to mix crews until representation issues are resolved and we have one single seniority list."

The way I read this, it is grey, not clear. (Surprise, surprise!) It does not address the possibility of f/a's flying each other's a/c though not together.


2. Once the SOC is issued, NW pilots are conceivably Delta pilots. Remember, all of their representational and contractual issues are done.
So Dig, that is what is unclear. Your contract states that you must fly on a/c flown by NW pilots. Well, there aren't going to be NW pilots after the SOC is issued.

So if the above are indeed the case and f/a representational issues are not yet worked out, the JFK-TLV 744 flight would be staffed by former NW pilots (we know this because of the 747 fence) AND either PMNW f/a's OR PMDL f/a's.

 

[Dignity]

A couple of things:
1. BB--what you quoted does NOT address the issue of whether PMDL f/a's can fly PMNW a/c on June 1, '10. It merely states that crews can not be mixed.

I was looking at this from the perspective from the initial comment regarding PMDL continuing to deadhead to PMNW bases to fly the 777. if that is the case there will be no PMNW Flight Attendant bidding the aircraft at all on a 777 at DTW (because we cannot bid together while having two separate seniority lists if that is still the case June 2010).

The way I read this, it is grey, not clear. (Surprise, surprise!) It does not address the possibility of f/a's flying each other's a/c though not together.

you are right it is grey..

just because a 777 is at DTW does not mean the PMNW Flight Attendants will be assigned that aircraft (even though we may all be trained on all equipment) and as mentioned, minus a combined seniority list, it can be only a PMNW crew or PMDL crew.

clarification regarding staffing under the circumstance of unresolved representational issues at that time is needed..

(I guess)

2. Once the SOC is issued, NW pilots are conceivably Delta pilots. Remember, all of their representational and contractual issues are done.
So Dig, that is what is unclear. Your contract states that you must fly on a/c flown by NW pilots. Well, there aren't going to be NW pilots after the SOC is issued.

actually that is probably correct.

just because we may not have representational issues resolved or a combined seniority list after a SOC has been issued, does not mean its still a separate operation anymore, because it wont be.

and there will be no more "NWA" pilots as they would all be considered "DAL" pilots after the SOC.

so that makes sense.

So if the above are indeed the case and f/a representational issues are not yet worked out, the JFK-TLV 744 flight would be staffed by former NW pilots (we know this because of the 747 fence) AND either PMNW f/a's OR PMDL f/a's.

but a PMDL FA crew could staff a 744 out of JFK after an SOC?

(but it can only be either a PMDL FA crew, or PMNW FA crew)

until a combined list.

there would be really nothing preventing being assigned any aircraft.

right?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I was looking at this from the perspective from the initial comment regarding PMDL continuing to deadhead to PMNW bases to fly the 777. if that is the case there will be no PMNW Flight Attendant bidding the aircraft at all on a 777 at DTW (because we cannot bid together while having two separate seniority lists if that is still the case June 2010).


you are right it is grey..

just because a 777 is at DTW does not mean the PMNW Flight Attendants will be assigned that aircraft (even though we may all be trained on all equipment) and as mentioned, minus a combined seniority list, it can be only a PMNW crew or PMDL crew.

clarification regarding staffing under the circumstance of unresolved representational issues at that time is needed..

(I guess)



actually that is probably correct.

just because we may not have representational issues resolved or a combined seniority list after a SOC has been issued, does not mean its still a separate operation anymore, because it wont be.

and there will be no more "NWA" pilots as they would all be considered "DAL" pilots after the SOC.

so that makes sense.


but a PMDL FA crew could staff a 744 out of JFK after an SOC?

(but it can only be either a PMDL FA crew, or PMNW FA crew)

until a combined list.

there would be really nothing preventing being assigned any aircraft.

right?

Correct, Dig. The only thing is if the Merger & Acquisition language contained in your AFA contract says anything about the above scenario. We know what the Scope language says but is there anything else in the M&A language that would preclude the above from happening? I guess someone would have to look that up....

 

[Dignity]

Correct, Dig. The only thing is if the Merger & Acquisition language contained in your AFA contract says anything about the above scenario. We know what the Scope language says but is there anything else in the M&A language that would preclude the above from happening? I guess someone would have to look that up....

what is in our scope clause in regards to merger or successor.. we are to remain separate from the other group until there is a combined seniority list, but there is nothing really stating we cannot fly successor aircraft, we just have to be separate.

I believe there is also something that says we also can fly any new flying that is allocated to Northwest Pilots, I would take that to be merger as well? I do know there is "small jet" language in our contract that says we can also fly regional aircraft (being a mainline Flight Attendant) but they would have to negotiate regional-like pay rates but I think that type of flying would have to go to a "Northwest Pilot" first..and then we would follow.
(but of course since there has been a merger with DAL, I dont think regional flying would play out going forward)

so I just assume if we can potentially fly regional aircraft in our contract.. considered something we do not fly now, we can also fly your aircraft.

what we really need is a combined seniority list.

 

[BABABOOY]

A couple of things:
1. BB--what you quoted does NOT address the issue of whether PMDL f/a's can fly PMNW a/c on June 1, '10. It merely states that crews can not be mixed. See the full quote below:

"All flight attendants from both pre-merger airlines will be trained to operate all aircraft types in the combined fleet when Aircraft Qualification (AQ) training is finished in March 2010. That means pre-merger Delta flight attendants will be qualified to fly the 747 and A330, and pre-merger Northwest flight attendants will be qualified to fly the 767 and 777, among others."
"While all flight attendants will be qualified to fly all aircraft of the new Delta, we will not be able to mix crews until representation issues are resolved and we have one single seniority list."

The way I read this, it is grey, not clear. (Surprise, surprise!) It does not address the possibility of f/a's flying each other's a/c though not together.


2. Once the SOC is issued, NW pilots are conceivably Delta pilots. Remember, all of their representational and contractual issues are done.
So Dig, that is what is unclear. Your contract states that you must fly on a/c flown by NW pilots. Well, there aren't going to be NW pilots after the SOC is issued.

So if the above are indeed the case and f/a representational issues are not yet worked out, the JFK-TLV 744 flight would be staffed by former NW pilots (we know this because of the 747 fence) AND either PMNW f/a's OR PMDL f/a's.

I understand now, Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Your absolutely correct, it is very grey.

 

[Dignity]

it is very grey.

it doesn't seem very productive either..

you have all Flight Attendants fully trained on all aircraft after an SOC.. PMNW may be able to fly all aircraft (based on qualifications) and PMDL as well.. but we cant fly with even 1 PMDL once you are down line/at the base/whereever..or a PMDL cannot fly with 1 PMNW either.

we all should know once you are out in the system, there are re-routes and rescheduling..it just seems not very efficient to me anyway..

to be down line somewhere, the need arises to be rescheduled..

but oh wait a minute, you cannot work an aircraft because there may be a PMDL crew assigned..and based on our contract must remain separate..

so you cannot work it.

of course the option to DH would be there but from a scheduling standpoint just doesn't make a lot of sense not utilizing crew members together on all aircraft after the SOC..

ya know?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

it doesn't seem very productive either..

you have all Flight Attendants fully trained on all aircraft after an SOC.. PMNW may be able to fly all aircraft (based on qualifications) and PMDL as well.. but we cant fly with even 1 PMDL once you are down line/at the base/whereever..or a PMDL cannot fly with 1 PMNW either.

we all should know once you are out in the system, there are re-routes and rescheduling..it just seems not very efficient to me anyway..

to be down line somewhere, the need arises to be rescheduled..

but oh wait a minute, you cannot work an aircraft because there may be a PMDL crew assigned..and based on our contract must remain separate..

so you cannot work it.

of course the option to DH would be there but from a scheduling standpoint just doesn't make a lot of sense not utilizing crew members together on all aircraft after the SOC..

ya know?

If the representational issue is not cleared up by June '10 and/or AFA is voted in and a combined contract is not yet agreed to (which would be very likely as that is only 8 months away and we haven't even voted!!!), it IS going to present operational challenges to the company. They know this and I think it is the primary reason that they are so upset about the possible NMB voting rule change.
Personally, I thought we would have had a decision handed down from the NMB by now. It has been close to 8 weeks since the TTD filed for a change in the voting method.