Delta and WestJet plans for joint adventure

[737823]

We were *A and we didn’t give up our flights to other carriers. But we did codeshare.

It wasn’t a testament to your, AFA-CWA or USAPA “iron clad” language it was because the low fare fodder USAIR network from CLT and PHL would be more of a hindrance than a help to both parties. DL/KL/AF/AZ JV is profit sharing, AA/BA/IB/AY and UA/AC/LH are revenue sharing arrangements.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I'm curious to see the actual nuts and bolts of this JV. So far all we've seen internally is a presser littered with gauzy buzzwords about "employee and customer-centric culture," and some very vague mentions of schedule coordination.

 

[737823]

I'm curious to see the actual nuts and bolts of this JV. So far all we've seen internally is a presser littered with gauzy buzzwords about "employee and customer-centric culture," and some very vague mentions of schedule coordination.

Kev,
I think you’ll find this somewhat informative:

https://www.lek.com/sites/default/files/LEK_AirlinesJointVentures.pdf

Obviously this is a marketing/business development piece of literature designed to get people in airline leadership roles to pick up the phone and get a proposal from L.E.K. but it’s a good read nonetheless.

Josh

 

[topDawg]

Dawg. When DL begins the IND-CDG run is that from a previous route they took away? Also Ive heard DL is discontinued or will discontinue the PHL to CDG

Nope MCO/IND-AMS/CDG are new. DL did run MCO-FRA years ago.

PHL-LHR, EWR-AMS, PHL-CDG, JFK-SVO, JFK-ARN are going away. 1x JFK-LHR is switching over to Virgin.

Not trying to be tacky, but IND to CDG? That is not a route I would have ever thought could make it. What is to be the frequency on this route?

I think it will mostly be 5x weekly but some daily flying in the summer.

IND-CDG are routes that the JV help. The main reason it will work (if it works) is because people can fly both IND-CDG but also IND-PHL-XXX.
The issue, as I have said, we have seen more cuts. Yeah some flying has been added like this, but the sad fact is if they route ends up needing more capacity than a 767, AF will likely be the carrier to add it.

Oh also as said, IND is paying for the route.

Dawg, as someone I both respect and feels has a solid grasp of the big picture at DL and in the industry I’m very puzzled by your post here.

I understand how tactically JBVs without adequate limitations and monitoring can be concerning for airline labor, but I don’t get the rest of your post.

Capacity cuts on the whole are good for employees and all stakeholders except people purchasing tickets, boost yields and financial performance in the long run. Sure going from a 744 to an A359 may take ~120-150 seats out of the market and a few bid positions for F/As but working for a nimble, disciplined entity is in your interest. Do you remember when DL was flying their EIGHT 777s to MCO with low fare fodder? Sure some people liked bidding those trips on the big bird but it wasn’t an optimal allocation of company resources.

The seasonal and other examples you cite from ATL/JFK id largely put in the same bucket. But it’s also worth noting when you mention things like ATL-BOM/TLV/KWI/ARN/VIE/EDI (whatever others) that was different era for DL and the whole “we must fly to every global city from ATL” experiment didn’t go over so well circa 2006-08.

Like I said genuinely don’t mean to be inflammatory but I’m very puzzled by this posts although I recognize and appreciate your concerns on JBVs.

Josh

If that is all that is happening I would agree with you. Look at my first post with numbers. DL/NW is down almost 10 long haul airplanes. It would be even more if DL wasn't restructuring the trans-pac network. Had NW already set up those routes pre-merger then the 767s pulled from the JFK/ATL-spokes would have been parked.

Also, “we must fly to every global city from ATL” shows me how little you actually know about DL.
That wasn't the idea at all. The idea was to get the company closer to 50/50 ASM split between international and domestic. At the time DL was adding a lot of Euro flying from both ATL and JFK to try to balance the network out.

It is something Ed and Glenn have told the investment community they want to do again (DL is back to being closer 65/35 or even 70/30 at times) but have yet to really expand that airline or order the airplanes to do it.

Coming from USAIR it’s no surprise you don’t understand how JBVs work after all UA/CO/AC didn’t want US in their transatlantic JBV. In the case of AA DFW that is one example of where JBV has worked well for the base. BA/IB JBV enabled service to MAD since 05/2009 among with new seasonal flying to AMS.

Josh

uh. He is right. In general jvs are at best neutral for US employees but mostly nothing but negative. Sure you want the company to do well but at the same time, the company would be doing fantastic if they could fire all of us, become a virtual airline and outsource the flying to the lowest bidder. It would be pretty stupid for employees to want that.

I'm curious to see the actual nuts and bolts of this JV. So far all we've seen internally is a presser littered with gauzy buzzwords about "employee and customer-centric culture," and some very vague mentions of schedule coordination.

because they have no idea how much outsourcing they can do till they sit down with DALPA and come up with the agreement.

Same thing with Aeromexico and Korean. Only JVs that have agreements between the pilots and management is AF/KL/AZ, VS and VA.

 

[737823]

Dawg,
You really don’t think in the post-BK era leading up to the NW transaction DL was overly ambitious and operated many marginal routes from ATL? I don’t mean to sound like I’m splitting hairs but come on ATL-BOM and ATL-EDI?

Can’t DALPA file a grievance through the proper channels if they believe the company is evading scope? Although you and other classifications at DL are unorganized, much like how at AA the other groups very much ride along on the scope the pilots are able to negotiate.

DL has a good mutually beneficial bargaining relationship with DALPA, many on Wall Street even think DALPA played the company. Why can’t/haven’t they negotiated more suitable language then?

Josh

 

[topDawg]

Dawg,
You really don’t think in the post-BK era leading up to the NW transaction DL was overly ambitious and operated many marginal routes from ATL? I don’t mean to sound like I’m splitting hairs but come on ATL-BOM and ATL-EDI?

I think Delta at times tried routes they didn't have the right aircraft for, ATL-EDI for example should have been on something closer to the 757, not a 767.
I think Delta tried to have a presence in some of the largest travel markets in the world but a) didn't have the right equipment and b) had to deal with subsidized dumping a ton of loss making capacity into the market.
ATL-BOM (and DEL) would work today, if 1) it was on something like the 787 2) the US-inida market was filled with low yield junk loss making flying from Air India and Qatar etc. etc. Air India, for example, has made it clear they are burning money on most of its US-India flying.
and if you'll remember, Delta started the non-stop US-India flying in a different time. It was always ATL-BOM, it just made a stop in JFK before they got the 77Ls. When it was started I think it had potential, but the ME3 and co quickly added crap capacity and fuel quickly shot up over 100 dollars per.

How in the hell United is making money I have no idea.

Can’t DALPA file a grievance through the proper channels if they believe the company is evading scope? Although you and other classifications at DL are unorganized, much like how at AA the other groups very much ride along on the scope the pilots are able to negotiate.

yes and no. First, that process takes time. Second you better have iron clad language. Third you better not have a union filled with people who believe stupidity like "outsourcing is good for Delta pilots" ie Lee Moak and his people.

Example, the AF/KL/AZ grievance was done, then (to push a garbage TA out to its membership) DALPA's leadership settled on for cents on the dollar.

and FWIW, the pilots don't have much to do with our work. This isn't American where MRO work is stupid. We do a lot of work for airlines Delta has outsourced Delta flying too. Including the DCI carriers.

DL has a good mutually beneficial bargaining relationship with DALPA, many on Wall Street even think DALPA played the company. Why can’t/haven’t they negotiated more suitable language then?

Josh

because most on wall street see anything that isn't in the black for the company as the union playing the company. Look at all the stupidity that has come out about American bringing back profit-sharing

that is not a good example at all. DALPA for the most part has bent over whenever the company wanted them too. Hell the last contract was the first time the union voted down a TA.....EVER.

 

[737823]

Dawg on that note it’s worth pointing out aside from a small handful of routes most of DLs U.S.-Canada capacity is operated by DCI carriers so it’s not much of a loss.

It’s not like the VS JBV which restructured the company’s entire U.K. Network.

I too think DL would probably be a better steward of the 787 than AA...look at how they’re being developed at least UA has launched a few new routes with great success but much of AAs utilization is DFW TPAC and ORD TPAC/LHR.

Did JFK-BOM come and go? I thought the ATL leg was just positioning and DL didn’t want the GE-90 -LR frames at JFK.

AA started ORD-DEL 11/2005 and it continued through 02/2012.

Josh

 

[topDawg]

Dawg on that note it’s worth pointing out aside from a small handful of routes most of DLs U.S.-Canada capacity is operated by DCI carriers so it’s not much of a loss.

It’s not like the VS JBV which restructured the company’s entire U.K. Network.

I too think DL would probably be a better steward of the 787 than AA...look at how they’re being developed at least UA has launched a few new routes with great success but much of AAs utilization is DFW TPAC and ORD TPAC/LHR.

Did JFK-BOM come and go? I thought the ATL leg was just positioning and DL didn’t want the GE-90 -LR frames at JFK.

AA started ORD-DEL 11/2005 and it continued through 02/2012.

Josh

BOM originally came from CDG-MAA flight being cut (AF took it over) and Delta started ATL-JFK-BOM with the 777-232ERs. Once Delta got the 777-232LRs ATL-JFK-BOM went ATL-BOM non-stop. It then bounced back and fourth a few times between ATL-BOM and ATL-JFK-BOM. Then BOM was cut from the US and flown via AMS.

Had nothing to do with wanting to keep the LR/GE90 out of JFK.

 

[robbedagain]

Thanks dawg. Does DL still operate ATL Johannesburg route or no? If so what ac type

 

[Kev3188]

We still run ATL-JNB. There's a 777 on it.

 

[topDawg]

Thanks dawg. Does DL still operate ATL Johannesburg route or no? If so what ac type

yep, 777-220LR.

 

[robbedagain]

Thanks dawg. As always much appreciated