Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[topDawg]

thanks for your responses, Dawg.

You are absolutely right that DL couldn't find the revenue to replace the insourcing revenue it gets... and they couldn't find places to do the jobs you do for the same amount - including the cost of laying Tech Ops employees off and shutting the place down - so they keep Tech Ops jobs. and now they can move em to Mexico. Again....not talking engines or back shops.

It's about money. DL is a business, not a charity. You and others do a job for them and get a paycheck.
and don't get treated nearly as well as I should. You know what kind of risk an A&P is putting on the line when he signs something?
Other airlines have chosen to keep LESS work in house - send more work out. UA only....and I think now with the CO merger they are back int eh ball park DL has a formula that keeps more work for DL employees than other airlines, and DL is able to do it at comparable or lower costs than its peers who outsource more. Formula = pay less and have a lower QOL
DL's insourcing work - not just in Tech Ops provides the mass the airline needs to remain efficient. Whether it is engine overhauls for Gol or shutting Comair in order to shift flying to DL employees, DL insources because it makes mainline more efficient.

Yes, I know you want to focus solely on overhaul because that is apparently YOUR THING. No. I don't want to hear how friggin happy I should be because some old fart puts a part on the engine.(and the same old fart is more than happy to see airframe jobs go down the sh**ter) Engine shop crys about time off....Hangar crys about all thats wrong with Delta. But DL is not just overhaul. They aren't just a domestic airline. As such, they have the ability to shift assets where they can make the most money. They stopped flying to Cairo because tourists don't want to go there anywhere... no money to be made. They don't do airframe overhauls - in part - because they can't make money at those costs. but can do them for other carriers who are, I guess, to stupid to call China.

But they can make money doing engine overhauls. And they can and do form partnerships with AM for maintenance just like they do with AF/KL for passenger revenue - because both sides gain. How does the Airframe side at Delta gain? Hell how does the engine side gain? they are pretty much out of room over there....and it looks like(at least) the airframe MRO is going to end up in Mexico.

Kev,
you may want to label flexbility as autocracy but it is exactly what DL has been able to use to keep more work for DL employees. Pilots gave the company the flexibility to turn a bunch of 50 seaters into beer cans but buy used 717s and add'l 76 seaters, with the result that DL employees will work more under the reworked fleet plan than they do now. They could have done all of that under the old contract.

You, from your union viewpoint, see flexibility as taking jobs away... yet the overwhelming evidence is that DL's ability to adapt to the marketplace is what has allowed them to keep more jobs than other airlines. It was true during the bankruptcies, it is still true today.
WTF are you talking about. Here is a hint, when you talk to someone on the ramp don't bring up jobs. (unless you want to count DGS....which im sure you do)
DL employees are a member of the marketplace for airline labor. Their benefits and scope are being eroded by other airlines who trash union contracts in BK. how long do we have to hear about this. Delta is going to make 1B+...BK over. DL only has to do better than those airlines to convince its employees that a union won't provide the security or pay the unions promise. not doing a good job anymore. DL employees fare better than their unionized peers because those heavily unionized airlines have had open season on airline labor for 35 years of deregulation. Get off the crack....United's AMTs smoke Delta's in everything.

Other airlines are laying off employees... and you can't accept that moving jobs from within the company is a better alternative. That is the flexibility DL has to use... flexible staffing including RRs are what DL can do today to keep its FT employees on the payroll. huh? RR is replacing FTs. (outside of Atlanta) Unions won't ever agree such a solution is viable err....other than Delta making tons of money off of it how is it viable? why is it good for the employee? Why shouldn't Delta have to staff stations the same way United/US/American/NWA do/did? Question how many other airlines have an company with-in the company that outsources and thats all it does? hint...none. How many have a crap program like RR? How many would have a station like RDU(i think like 40 flights for Delta) DGS? or SEA pre-merger? - yet you can't stop the wholesale trashing of airline labor contracts in BK and the outsourcing of work by other airlines which is far larger. Prove to me, with numbers and links, that Delta has better QOL on the ramp than other airlines not named American?

You are an idealist, Kev. I admire you for that. I admire you for fighting for what matters to you and for never giving up in the things that you believe are right. Sometimes, flexibility and pragmatism are needed in order to build a world that isn't everything you want but a whole lot better than the alternative.

A political commentator offered this about the current political situation in the US, noting there is alot of idealism at work with little ability to make goals happen.

"The presidents judged by history to be the greatest — Lincoln, the Roosevelts, Washington, Jefferson, Reagan and Wilson — were all idealists. They had a vision of America and of the world. But these men were also pragmatic politicians, men who judged that winning what’s possible is preferable to losing in fealty to an impossible dream.
In their time, each of them was denounced by their closest supporters for betraying their ideals. But they changed America."


The world will be changed not by those who hold rigidly to ideals which cannot be attained but by those who figure out how to succeed in a world that is less than what it should be but still provides considerable opportunity to those of us as change agents who pragmatically accept the world as it is and build a better world one brick at a time.

 

[topDawg]

Why didn't DL gut the entire maintenance system during Chpt 11? You can say higher valve work stayed in house, Yea that is the sound bite. The truth is they couldn't find anyone at the time that could promise the PSV work on the time frame they wanted. Everyone wanted more time to do the checks. A prime example is the NW fleet which is still mostly done at MRO's. An L check on a 757 takes 11 days. We just did one in ATL. We turned the aircraft in seven days, under budget. Another is in the dock in the TOC. I think the turn times on the Airbus are also down for the ones done at the TOC. We are going to be doing another line of them next year while there is slack in the 737 line.

And I believe went so far as to send T7 and 737 PSV out....only to have the brought back in.

IMHO this is the last step. If this fails as badly as sending it out the other 3rd parties has failed then HMVs will come back in house. I'd love to see this venture lose 800M or so.

PS how did the numbers turn out on the 757 HMV they did in Bay 4? not to long ago? on-time and under I hope.

 

[Kev3188]

Wanna guess how long we'll have to wait for post #2?

However long it takes for you to forget what account you're logged in as...

[quote]huh? RR is replacing FTs. (outside of Atlanta) err....other than Delta making tons of money off of it how is it viable? why is it good for the employee? Why shouldn't Delta have to staff stations the same way United/US/American/NWA do/did? Question how many other airlines have an company with-in the company that outsources and thats all it does? hint...none. How many have a crap program like RR? How many would have a station like RDU(i think like 40 flights for Delta) DGS? or SEA pre-merger? [/quote]

+1

• We had 76 seater language in our scope clause (for CP flights).
• Until very recently, DL actually had *two* in house handling companies.
• DL talks a lot about "insourcing" the ramp, but the truth is that all they've done is opened (or reopened in 7 cases) stations already staffed with NW people to PMDL employees. There has been no new stations opened. At all.
• When they open a place like RDU or CLT to Dept. 120 employees, then maybe I'll take 'em seriously...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Dawg and Kev,
If the measurement of success in your eyes regarding outsourcing/insourcing is regaining of jobs that have already been lost, then you will probably be permanently disappointed. DL MAY bring back some of those jobs - but it would be more than a risk for me to even suggest they will bring back work that has been previously outsourced - and perhaps an unattainable goal for you to believe that DL should bring that work back in-house.

And once again I will ask you how much outsourced work at DL's competitors has returned? If DL is no worse off, then it begs the question as to what disadvantage DL employees have, esp. since they started at a higher base on in-house than other departments.

Is it possible that DL could bring HMV work back? possible... but probably mostly limited by facilities.
Is it possible that DL could bring back ACS jobs? In cities where DL's competitive position is relatively set, much more likely - as long as there is an acceptance that a high percentage of those jobs might be RRs or part-time... because that is the cost equvalent in-house employee to outsouced work.

But the bigger issue which I will ask again is how many CURRENT/EXISTING FT employees have lost their job - not been asked to transfer to another work area, city, etc. LOST their job. If you answer more than 1, as in due to layoffs - not performance related terminations, I want examples.

If you want to show that DL has ended jobs in one work area (such as airframe overhauls) as evidence that they are increasing outsourcing, then you are missing the point that DL is finding other places for DL employees to work - and they are shifting resources based on where they can best maximize profits- which is what profit-motivated companies do. It is no different than DL making a decision to cancel a TATL route and use the aircraft on a transcontinental route.

You can also argue that one employee group - maybe even DL mechanics are not paid as well as their peers at other airlines... and I won't argue that might be true. But if other carriers such as UA mechanics outsource a higher percentage of work, then the higher INDIVIDUAL salaries are offset by fewer total jobs...logic that a labor unions would and have used in negotiations. And it also doesn't change that UA's maintenance operations are in much higher cost parts of the US.

If DL mechanics make less than UA mechanics in individual compensation, the difference between pilots at the two airlines is MUCH higher. DL pilot compensation surpasses UA pilot compensation by more than 25% - and movement on finalizing an agreement between UA/CO ALPA and UA mgmt has stalled, undoubtedly in part because UA mgmt wants to see what will happen w/ AA and its pilots.

And, as unjust as it may be to you two and your work areas, DL has apparently considered the pilots more strategic in allowing the company to do what it needs to do strategically - and the reason is not just because the pilots at DL are unionized. DL's non-contract personnel are paid on average - as a group - comparable to or better than employees at other network carriers - AND those other carriers' non-pilot personnel are not any more effective in limiting scope.

Kev- would the IAM have succeeded in obtaining large RJ scope language if ALPA had not already obtained it - or NW was willing to give it ALPA concurrently? Is there any situation where non-pilot personnel have been able to enforced more strict scope language w/o comparable language for pilots?

I'm not saying it is fair, but I think the 800 pound beast in the room is that pilots DO control scope at most US airlines. Considering that DL ground personnel do work flights regardless of the aircraft type - DL or DCI - scope language for ground personnel has more to do with locations than aircraft types.

----

Spectator is right. My participation on aviation chat forums has always been a mental exercise in debate that is apersonal and disconnected from any personal gains/losses to the airline industry. It is also why I do not discuss or debate any other issues such as religion or politics on here because those are not the reasons I participate on this forum.
Attempts to argue that I have something to gain/lose based on my positions are wrong.

Whether some people view their participation here in the same way or not, I can debate someone's IDEAS and POSITIONS and be capable of sitting down with them for a beer and burrito, not even considering the issue we just debated. It is no different than realizing that there are prosecuting and defense attorneys who go to court and argue against each other and then end the day on the golf course.

Attempts to connect my IDEAS to the people with whom I debate is an error. I respect people on the basis of who they are as people. The nameless entity on this forum does not come close to representing any person or who they are as people.

For the record both personally and for WT the nameless entity on this forum, I want you as DL employees and every other American to achieve the most personally and professionally as you possibly can.

 

[Kev3188]

But the bigger issue which I will ask again is how many CURRENT/EXISTING FT employees have lost their job - not been asked to transfer to another work area, city, etc. LOST their job. If you answer more than 1, as in due to layoffs - not performance related terminations, I want examples.

No.

Not playing until you recognize that a job lost in city X is still a job lost. You can sing about DL "shifting resources" all you want. At the end of the day, if the person doesn't go, they've lost their job. it's even worse when you factor in that DL employees don't own their seniority, and can't exercise on the system during a reduction in force.

Furthermore, as people are retiring or taking EO packages, those positions aren't being backfilled. The (now vacant) positions simply vanish into the ether...

Call it semantics, call it a structural layoff, call it whatever; the end run is the same.

Kev- would the IAM have succeeded in obtaining large RJ scope language if ALPA had not already obtained it - or NW was willing to give it ALPA concurrently?

Maybe, dunno...

Considering that DL ground personnel do work flights regardless of the aircraft type - DL or DCI

Not everywhere, we don't. MSP, DTW, & LGA come to mind...

Spectator is right. My participation on aviation chat forums has always been a mental exercise in debate that is apersonal and disconnected from any personal gains/losses to the airline industry. It is also why I do not discuss or debate any other issues such as religion or politics on here because those are not the reasons I participate on this forum.
Attempts to argue that I have something to gain/lose based on my positions are wrong.

Whether some people view their participation here in the same way or not, I can debate someone's IDEAS and POSITIONS and be capable of sitting down with them for a beer and burrito, not even considering the issue we just debated. It is no different than realizing that there are prosecuting and defense attorneys who go to court and argue against each other and then end the day on the golf course.

Attempts to connect my IDEAS to the people with whom I debate is an error. I respect people on the basis of who they are as people. The nameless entity on this forum does not come close to representing any person or who they are as people.

For the record both personally and for WT the nameless entity on this forum, I want you as DL employees and every other American to achieve the most personally and professionally as you possibly can.

Wow. :blink:

 

[WorldTraveler]

Not playing until you recognize that a job lost in city X is still a job lost. You can sing about DL "shifting resources" all you want. At the end of the day, if the person doesn't go, they've lost their job. it's even worse when you factor in that DL employees don't own their seniority, and can't exercise on the system during a reduction in force.

Furthermore, as people are retiring or taking EO packages, those positions aren't being backfilled. The (now vacant) positions simply vanish into the ether...

Call it semantics, call it a structural layoff, call it whatever; the end run is the same.

ok, Kev, I have never denied that DL like any other company has to eliminate jobs in one job classification and/or location.
The option is to lay those people off, allow bumping, or accommodate them elsewhere on the system.

Presumably, you would prefer the PMNW/IAM system of allowing you to bump someone in your category in the city you want to go.
I can understand the preference for someone who might be bumped.
But that system also creates huge instability and lots of cost... did NW pay for the move if you got bumped out of your city but you found another job in another location?

More to the point, what other airlines, NOW allow system bumping among ACS employees - any job function is fine for the argument.
I'm happy to hear input regarding other workgroups if you or others know.

I don't agree that DL employees don't OWN their seniority - you just can't use it to bump someone out of a job they hold. You can bid into any job that is open and your seniority dictates the usual stuff like shift bidding, vacations, pay etc.

Tell me if I am missing something.


Tell me also how any other airline does any better job at retaining the total number of jobs... .the system you propose/had favors higher seniority employees at the expense of someone else. I'm not sure alot of people would agree that is the best system.

If DL levels out of a location, they either offer an alternative job/location or if they cannot accommodate you, they offer a severance. Tell me how many jobs DL has leveled since the merger w/o a replacement job somewhere in the company.

And again tell me how any other company has done a better job in the same post-BK, post-merger environment.

Not everywhere, we don't. MSP, DTW, & LGA come to mind...

I don't know the answer but I would bet the number of DCI flights worked by DL employees is not as different as DL flights worked by DCI/DGS employees as you might think. I might be wrong...
I still would hope that the shift in the fleet to more DL mainline will allow more cities to be converted....and remember that the number of DCI flights in MSP, DTW, and LGA will be shrinking as mainline takes over many flights.
There is still a shift toward mainline aircraft and mainline employees taking place at DL that isn't taking place at other airlines.

Wow. :blink:

not sure what that means... but I have said MULTIPLE times for people not to take what I say personally... and yet when I see people saying that I must have something personal to be gained from what I say, I have to doubt if the message has gotten thru.

I don't and have never defined the people in my life by a litmus test of beliefs.... I don't exclude anyone because they don't have the same values or believes on one subject or another.

I would hope that you and everyone else on this forum understand that principle.. an anonymous chat forum such as this is based on the exchange of ideas.... no more, no less.

 

[wings396]

Not sure where your head is on this one, but if you are displaced out of your position or station, you should be able to bump a junior person out of theirs period. Based on your way of thinking, its obvious that you have never been in that position. Live thru that situation, then come back to us with your preaching.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Not sure where your head is on this one, but if you are displaced out of your position or station, you should be able to bump a junior person out of theirs period. Based on your way of thinking, its obvious that you have never been in that position. Live thru that situation, then come back to us with your preaching.

I have indeed been in that exact position and accepted an alternate position in the same city to stay with the company.

Worked out that I ended up moving UP to a much higher position as a result of working in a different area.

Mine is not just a theoretical position.

 

[wings396]

But in most cases a position in the same city isn't an option, so relocation is necessary. Also in a unionized environment, moving back and forth to management positions doesn't work. I have known several that took the risk of moving up, only to be moved out later with no job protection.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I won't argue that bumping can be attractive if you are the one who is on the short end of the stick.

DL doesn't do it that way.

The bigger question is how much better an airline that has a bumping policy protects full-time jobs compared to DL. And I still am not sure that other than the post-merger shuffling of positions esp. FROM MSP that DL has done anywhere close to as much leveling as other airlines.

It is precisely because they have the flexibility to convert VACANT positions to Ready Reserve or eliminate those positions all together that DL's overall reduction in positions in the past decade is smaller than at other network carriers.

Flexibility does have a cost - but it is obviously alot lower than eliminating alot more jobs throughout the system - which other airlines have done far more than DL has done.

No system is ideal... if the goal is the protection of the most amount of jobs, DL's flexibility and ability to redeploy human resources in the same way that it moves airplanes around has resulted in a more stable employee environment in an industry that is famously UNSTABLE.

It's nice to be having a pleasant conversation with you.

 

[Kev3188]

Presumably, you would prefer the PMNW/IAM system of allowing you to bump someone in your category in the city you want to go.

I would prefer the employee have the option of (somewhat) controlling their destiny, as opposed to the company dictating where- or even if- they can move at all.

I would prefer a system of transparency, rather than what exists now.

did NW pay for the move if you got bumped out of your city but you found another job in another location?

No.

More to the point, what other airlines, NOW allow system bumping among ACS employees - any job function is fine for the argument.

Off the top of my head: AA, AS, UA, US, WN

I don't agree that DL employees don't OWN their seniority - you just can't use it to bump someone out of a job they hold. You can bid into any job that is open and your seniority dictates the usual stuff like shift bidding, vacations, pay etc.

No you can't.

I don't know the answer but I would bet the number of DCI flights worked by DL employees is not as different as DL flights worked by DCI/DGS employees as you might think. I might be wrong...

You said DL employees work both. In many cities, DL employees work M/L equipment, while REAS (and soon to be DGS) works DCI flights. In LGA, DGS works the Shuttle. In other places, core functions are farmed out.

I still would hope that the shift in the fleet to more DL mainline will allow more cities to be converted....

Hope doesn't get you anywhere. A legally binding agreement does.

not sure what that means...

It means you sound like you've lost your f**king mind. Either that, or you got caught, and this is a bizarre way to gloss it over?

I have indeed been in that exact position and accepted an alternate position in the same city to stay with the company.

Not necessarily possible today. Company policy and procedure doesn't allow just crossing over, no matter how many times they try to sell people on "flexibility."

Mine is not just a theoretical position.

Neither is anyone else's. It just runs counter to the narrative you want to promote.

 

[WorldTraveler]

So it's ok for potentially dozens of employees to be displaced thru cascading for every one person that is displaced... that is the logic that pilots have had w/ retraining and airlines have done everything possible to stop.

So the majority of unionized airlines allow bumping.... the question remains what results in the best OVERALL outcome.

This is the same sort of cherry picking issues w/o being able to look at the whole picture. Even if you had a union, you can't pick one item from list A and another from list B and have them both. There are tradeoffs. The company will let you have both if you give something else up that is of similar value elsewhere.

DL just does the choosing and they do it based on the market Apparently the vast majority of DL non-pilot personnel consider that acceptable.

In your city do DL mainline personnel work both ML and DCI or not? Not every large station works the same as every other station. The Marine Air Terminal at LGA is a complete standalone operation on the opposite side of the airfield. Passengers cannot connect between Shuttle and non-Shuttle flights. DL is also trying to keep a presence in the Shuttle markets when the economics clearly do not favor air shuttles any longer.

Please expand on what you can't do with seniority other than bumping.

Why can't you move from ACS to Res or Cargo etc? Weren't the Stores people in MSP that were displaced offered MSP ACS jobs or an ATL transfer to Stores?

You do realize those legally binding agreements have been ripped up at will by airline in BK and what is left have enough flexibility to allow companies to do whatever they want.
My question again is what network/legacy airline is doing a better job in ACS today and how did they compare to DL thru BK.

Caught for what? Or perhaps me recognizing that too many people were getting too worked up about stuff that shouldn't be the basis of bar room brawls - too many people were taking too much way too personally.
Do you believe it is possible for people to have opposing points and still have amicable relationships? Do you believe it is possible to not focus on differences but instead on commonality?

 

[Kev3188]

So it's ok for potentially dozens of employees to be displaced thru cascading for every one person that is displaced... that is the logic that pilots have had w/ retraining and airlines have done everything possible to stop.

That's overdramatic. The retraining and moving of "seats" that happens with pilots does not translate to other groups.

So the majority of unionized airlines allow bumping.... the question remains what results in the best OVERALL outcome.

Control of seniority= Best overall outcome for an affected employee.

This is the same sort of cherry picking issues w/o being able to look at the whole picture. Even if you had a union, you can't pick one item from list A and another from list B and have them both. There are tradeoffs. The company will let you have both if you give something else up that is of similar value elsewhere.

Wow. Way to parrot the company's talking points. You should've added "direct relationship," and completed the circle. BTW, it's the company, not the employees that made a deal out of "taking the best from both carriers." Only when people called them out on their failure to do so, did the whole "cherry picking" cliche pop up.

DL just does the choosing

You could've just typed this, and saved the other 1000 words.

Apparently the vast majority of DL non-pilot personnel consider that acceptable.

Vast majority? You sure? The ramp & FA elections were much closer than many would like to admit. Despite your determination to tout the company line, this is an airline divided; especially in 120 & IFS.

The Marine Air Terminal at LGA is a complete standalone operation on the opposite side of the airfield. Passengers cannot connect between Shuttle and non-Shuttle flights. DL is also trying to keep a presence in the Shuttle markets when the economics clearly do not favor air shuttles any longer.

So what?

It was you who talked M/L employees doing the (and more) work. LGA is just one example of it not necessarily being true.

Why can't you move from ACS to Res or Cargo etc? Weren't the Stores people in MSP that were displaced offered MSP ACS jobs or an ATL transfer to Stores?

Displaced employees can apply for jobs on eBid, just like the rest of the system. They don't get to just waltz into them.

You do realize those legally binding agreements have been ripped up at will by airline in BK and what is left have enough flexibility to allow companies to do whatever they want.

DL went into BK with everyone else. After all your posts about DL becoming the world leader in everything, are you saying that a CBA would result in a repeat trip?

That said, were it to occur, I'd honestly take another trip through the 1113c wringer than not have anyone advocating for us in the courtroom.

Caught for what?

Whatever. Spin in whatever way makes you feel better. There was an actual message there before you realized what was going on and replaced it with "1." I just didn't quote it in time. Will we see ELC or whatever the 3rd one is soon?

 

[wings396]

To put this all in simple terms, without anything in writing Delta can change the rules of the game anytime they wish. What's good today, can be changed tomorrow if it suites the companies wants at the time. I must say that I am shocked that the LGA Shuttle operation is not handled by mainline employees on the rampside.

 

[Kev3188]

To put this all in simple terms, without anything in writing Delta can change the rules of the game anytime they wish. What's good today, can be changed tomorrow if it suites the companies wants at the time.

Truth.

BTW, every-and I mean every- policy and procedure this company has is prefaced with wording that says just that.

I must say that I am shocked that the LGA Shuttle operation is not handled by mainline employees on the rampside.

I was too. I heard that from a someone that works there. I would love to be proven wrong.