Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[blue collar]

WT, your cost of living argument as to why UA pays more is not based on fact whatsoever. If it were, you would have mentioned that UA's largest hub is in TX, which is lower cost (which, according to you is why AA pays considerably less).

 

[WorldTraveler]

blue,
Where the hubs are and where UA (combined) does its heaviest maintenance are two different questions.
How many mechanics does UA employ in each of its largest city? Did CO/does UA have anything comparable to the UA SFO maintenance base?

Kev,
perhaps it makes you feel better to label me as a corporate suck-up but you have not demonstrated any objectivity to accept a POV different from your own. It is precisely because you refuse to consider that your perspective might not 'splain everything that I persist in posting what I do.

I have never said that I don't support your efforts to effect change.... rather, I have encouraged you to do so. I just would like to know what measure of success you plan to use and at what intervals in time you will acknowledge that success.

And I still haven't heard anything objective data provided by anyone on "your side" to show that unions have succeeded at what they are doing.

And I have yet to see anyone - esp. Dawg - acknowledge the work that AM sends to DL. As much as he wants to paint this picture as a one-way street, it is clearly not - and the failure to include the northbound flow of work only serves to confirm the bias that is present in the assessment.
Yes, airframe maintenance is going south, but are not Dawg and others capable of transferring to other areas within TOC and acquiring skills to work in areas that probably will yield higher pay?

 

[blue collar]

If mechanics' wages are based on where the airline's heavy mx bases are located, then why does WN pay the most? Their mx base is in DAL, not the highest cost area.

Also, unions have succeeded in raising pay rates/overall conditions not only for themselves, but also for non union companies like DL and FX. Delta doesn't pay what they do out of the goodness of their heart, they try to pay just enough to keep unions out.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Have there been AM aircraft at the TOC for a HMV? If so, are they now being 'outsourced' to Mexico?

 

[WorldTraveler]

If mechanics' wages are based on where the airline's heavy mx bases are located, then why does WN pay the most? Their mx base is in DAL, not the highest cost area.

WN pays higher wages compared to the network carriers period. For now.
That's the benefit of creating a business plan that found opportunities away from other carriers for most of WN's history - and then not having those pesky legacy costs like more retirees than actual employees.

Also, unions have succeeded in raising pay rates/overall conditions not only for themselves, but also for non union companies like DL and FX. Delta doesn't pay what they do out of the goodness of their heart, they try to pay just enough to keep unions out.

bingo...I have said that for years and also said that DL employees SHOULD threaten unionization to help push wages up. There have been lots of votes taken... they just have not translated into any additional unions for the major workgroups.
That concept is no differerent in its application of market forces than DL's decision to put WiFi on all 2 class and larger domestic aircraft. They did it to provide a competitive advantage and they chose WiFi based on the amenities their competitors have on their aircraft. DL clearly would not have done it if they had been a monopoly. That is why competition is good - whether for pushing up pay for a company that wants to stay above average or in service in offering the best product for the lowest price.

Have there been AM aircraft at the TOC for a HMV? If so, are they now being 'outsourced' to Mexico?

Have there been AM engines or components in the TOC?.... that question might not be as easily answered.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

The AM question was real. I figured you knew. I do not.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And what measure would you like to use? number of screws turned?

Money is what pays salaries either in the US or in a foreign country. It is absolutely a measure of the value of work done - and thus outsourcing.

Adding a currency/pay adjustment factor would help - I doubt those people working on planes in Mexico are paid in U.S. dollars. What it amounts to is the discounting of outsourcing by putting it in U.S. dollar terms. If DL sends 25% of it's maintenance spend to Mexico, it is actually outsourcing more than 25% of it's maintenance. The dollar closed at 12.99 pesos today, so putting in an adjustment based on the Mexico hanger's mechanic pay vs a DL mechanic would go a long way to giving a truer picture of "the facts."

Jim

 

[blue collar]

WN pays higher wages compared to the network carriers period. For now.
That's the benefit of creating a business plan that found opportunities away from other carriers for most of WN's history - and then not having those pesky legacy costs like more retirees than actual employees.


bingo...I have said that for years and also said that DL employees SHOULD threaten unionization to help push wages up. There have been lots of votes taken... they just have not translated into any additional unions for the major workgroups.
That concept is no differerent in its application of market forces than DL's decision to put WiFi on all 2 class and larger domestic aircraft. They did it to provide a competitive advantage and they chose WiFi based on the amenities their competitors have on their aircraft. DL clearly would not have done it if they had been a monopoly. That is why competition is good - whether for pushing up pay for a company that wants to stay above average or in service in offering the best product for the lowest price.


Have there been AM engines or components in the TOC?.... that question might not be as easily answered.

Oh, I must have missed the qualifier of 'network' carriers.

And, you must've missed the part of paying just enough to not unionize. It's kind of like working just hard enough to not get fired.

 

[topDawg]

Thanks to you each of you for your responses…
This would be a really good time for me to say that I know EXACTLY about 7.5, Dawg, because I was in ACS at the time. In fact, I was given a pink slip but saw the error in the process that local DL mgmt used to determine who stayed and who went, so I picked up the phone and went one step below the CEO – and was back on the job the next day. Not necessarily where I wanted, but I knew the rules, I knew how to play on the terms DL dictated, and I knew how to call the company on its own error.
I then went on to work for over a decade – more than two decades in total at DL- in mgmt where I hired, fired, and did countless performance evaluations. I know EXACTLY what protections DL contract and non-contract employees have.clearly you have been gone from Delta or didn't work there before 7.5 if you think it the same Delta. (or your on some good drugs)
I was intelligent enough to leave because I wanted to do something else with my life – and I recognized, like you Glenn, that DL couldn’t deliver what I wanted so I took what the company offered and left.
My story is hardly isolated. I know few people who have gone for a career at DL w/o a run-in with the company over HR issues. But I can say without a shadow of the doubt that the vast majority of those issues are resolved far more fairly than any union ever could obtain.
… which brings us once again to the question which I will keep pounding home and that is “what proof do you have that DL employees as a whole fair any worse than those at other airlines other than to point out an intangible such as “control” which clearly doesn’t translate into the salary and benefits that ANY employee actually wants.
Dawg,
You can point out all day long how much better UA mechanics do but you have yet to show me the cost of living adjustments that show why DL employees – heavily based in the south and in lower cost of living cities than their peers at other airlines – are really not as bad off as you make them out to be. FWIW, it also explains why AA maintenance – heavily concentrated in TX and OK – is not paid at the same levels as UA. Simple....A Delta LAX Mechanic makes less than a United Mechanic in LA. Also...Fine I don't really care about the 200 bucks....I do how ever care that they get ~3-4 more weeks off than me and lower health care cost. None of which have anything to do with COL. (and FWIW If it was as important as you make it out to be, and Delta did such a great friggin job taking care of its people, then all the hard to fill stations would be well into 6 figures.)
Those are market forces and what I have read for months from you and others is how DL is short-changing its employees yet you choose to factor in those elements like location – that just as in real estate – are huge determinants of salary. You argue that DL chooses not to expand maintenance outside of the south to avoid unions while failing to note that DL could not begin to maintain the same cost levels if it had to build maintenance facilities outside of the US SE – and your own peers here have said so as well. er I don't think I have said a word about building outside of the southeast. Matter of fact I have noted many times ATL has tons of room for more Hangars.
I would love to see DL pick up another maintenance location or two somewhere in the US – perhaps some that NW has idled –but I am as certain as the day is long that it won’t happen unless DL can be assured long-term that it effectively compete in the global marketplace – which is the marketplace for aviation maintenance. how about one Delta backed out of? In the SE.... Tampa is open again....and Us wide...The LAX base is still there.
If you are 3[sup]rd[/sup] generation DL, then I still have to ask you why you have expectations that you would be a unionized employee in the job you are doing? Because when I started many years ago a union wasn't needed. Not so much now. Were you not aware that DL employees have consistently chosen not to be represented by unions, despite acquiring multiple carriers that were much more heavily unionized than DL was? Did your mother or father never tell you that DL uses flexibility throughout the company that unions at other airlines don’t allow – and they have been doing so for decades? No my father and grandfather pointed out what a great company it was. That was before 7.5 and BK though. Its not the same company. Like it or not, Delta is no better than American or United.
If you have been around DL any length of time, then you should know that your expectation is not valid that DL will add jobs doing functions which it has already determined cannot be done profitably for the company. unless they are forced to by organized labor...what a thought.
You might also want to acknowledge that UA mechanics, as well paid as they may be, work for the same company that still pays its pilots more than 25% less than DL pilots using the BK contract which UA imposed years ago. The likelihood that UA will increase pay for its other employees is slim to none until they raise pilot salaries- and in order to do that, they will have to spend upwards of a half billion dollars per year. In case you missed it, UA reported LESS revenue per flown seat mile in August than from a year before.... UA's revenue is shrinking while their employees are demanding higher pay - not exactly a formula for success, esp. given that UA's financial performance is well below your employers this year. why do you keep talking about pilots? Lets try this one more time WT. Read slowly. I. Don't. give. A. Rats. a$$. about. the. Pilots. You want to talk about ALPA's failures..? find a pilot. The only thing I care about is if they hurt us....via SCOPE. Thats really about it.

What you and others refuse to acknowledge is that you participate in the JOB MARKET. All of you do jobs and have skills and qualifications that can very easily be compared with other people elsewhere in the US for people w/ the same skill set as well as elsewhere in the same location but in related jobs that use the same skill sets. Airlines only man. Don't care about Ford, Best buy or hilton. I care about Airlines and airlines only. (you do too if it makes your point, but seem to bring up the "us market" when your proven to be wrong)
The simple fact is that airline employees have enjoyed well above average salaries for decades because of the power of unions and now market forces are eroding that advantage because unions are not able to hold back market forces.Lol grow up. quit with the cheap shots. Unions, by way of the government....are HELPLESS in BK. Before then they were doing a pretty damn good job. (and IMO will start to build again, or airlines will be back in BK)

http://www.bls.gov/e...p_chart_001.htm
Note that this chart does not account for specialized, license specific jobs such as mechanics and pilots but it does show that many airline employees continue to earn wages above the levels they would earn in the open market. don't care. Delta compares me to Airlines.....quit with the "be happy" horse crap. YOUR WRONG.....quit running from it.
Kev,
The promise of America is liberty and justice for all – not pay equality. That’s socialism and it doesn’t even work in countries that are truly socialist – because the free market ALWAYS manages to create a secondary labor market. The job market is based on people performing a job that others value high enough to pay them to do – and if the qualifications and uniqueness of those skills are at a premium to the market, you (collective) earn a salary at a premium to the market.
The US stands for equality of opportunity – of which you and others have had your fair share.
Or perhaps you would like to tell us what equality means and how DL is not attaining to it - and better yet how a union can be shown to do a better job of attaining it in the airline industry.
Nowhere – but nowhere – have I ever said that success is defined by the measures I use to define it. I have acknowledged that success uses the measures that each of us use.
Hopefully you won’t mind if I and others measure you against the goals you have defined – achieving labor representation.
Quitting is failing to develop the skills necessary to ensure success in the marketplace of work. Pragmatism is being willing to recognize that your goals can’t be achieved the way you thought they would… and adapting to the environment. Nowhere does pragmatism mean giving up on your goals.
Idealism – which you have in spades is commendable… but if you fail to achieve your goals, you are not much more than a dreamer.
Read again the quote I posted earlier.
The presidents judged by history to be the greatest — Lincoln, the Roosevelts, Washington, Jefferson, Reagan and Wilson — were all idealists. They had a vision of America and of the world. But these men were also pragmatic politicians, men who judged that winning what’s possible is preferable to losing in fealty to an impossible dream.
In their time, each of them was denounced by their closest supporters for betraying their ideals. But they changed America.

Alrighty then. Kev you have fun dealing with.....whatever in the heck he is talk about above.

 

[topDawg]

blue,
Where the hubs are and where UA (combined) does its heaviest maintenance are two different questions.
How many mechanics does UA employ in each of its largest city? Did CO/does UA have anything comparable to the UA SFO maintenance base?

Kev,
perhaps it makes you feel better to label me as a corporate suck-up but you have not demonstrated any objectivity to accept a POV different from your own. It is precisely because you refuse to consider that your perspective might not 'splain everything that I persist in posting what I do.

I have never said that I don't support your efforts to effect change.... rather, I have encouraged you to do so. I just would like to know what measure of success you plan to use and at what intervals in time you will acknowledge that success.

And I still haven't heard anything objective data provided by anyone on "your side" to show that unions have succeeded at what they are doing.

And I have yet to see anyone - esp. Dawg - acknowledge the work that AM sends to DL. As much as he wants to paint this picture as a one-way street, it is clearly not - and the failure to include the northbound flow of work only serves to confirm the bias that is present in the assessment.
Yes, airframe maintenance is going south, but are not Dawg and others capable of transferring to other areas within TOC and acquiring skills to work in areas that probably will yield higher pay?

Ok two thing. 1) I have no problem saying Delta does AM engine work. See I said it. Thing is I'll take the loss of those few CFM56s for the gain in 600+ aircraft HMVs plus the engines Delta doesn't do in house. Thats the point you seem to be missing. I want 10,000+ jobs add and you want to talk about how great it is that Delta maybe has 30 jobs thanks to AM. Simple math man...
2) I, or any AMT(and some shops has ASMs) could go to the power plant side.....but that doesn't mean I want to. I use to see M88s in TOC-I getting overhauled....now they are getting done in Mexico. Its complete crap. Delta has show that it is a major failure. They have changed vendors twice in the 5 years they have been out of house and now feel the need to build a hangar in Mexico and pretty much control the work with contract workers because the work is still so poor. Why do you think they are really doing this? It isn't because its some huge money tree....its because they still can't figure out how to get the work done like it was done in Atlanta. You keep yours eyes closed to more and more failures in management. (I'm sure they'll be back soon to take more money/jobs away.)

 

[lineguy43]

WN pays higher wages compared to the network carriers period. For now.
That's the benefit of creating a business plan that found opportunities away from other carriers for most of WN's history - and then not having those pesky legacy costs like more retirees than actual employees.


bingo...I have said that for years and also said that DL employees SHOULD threaten unionization to help push wages up. There have been lots of votes taken... they just have not translated into any additional unions for the major workgroups.
That concept is no differerent in its application of market forces than DL's decision to put WiFi on all 2 class and larger domestic aircraft. They did it to provide a competitive advantage and they chose WiFi based on the amenities their competitors have on their aircraft. DL clearly would not have done it if they had been a monopoly. That is why competition is good - whether for pushing up pay for a company that wants to stay above average or in service in offering the best product for the lowest price.


Have there been AM engines or components in the TOC?.... that question might not be as easily answered.

Those Delta sheep will never threaten to get a union to push their wages up..They are drinking the kool-aid over there. They are content riding the coattails of union members at other companies who fight for industry wages they enjoy today and they do not have to pay union dues. FX is the same way these guys are paid second only to UPS and they too have never had to fight for what they have.

 

[Kev3188]

I know EXACTLY what protections DL contract and non-contract employees have.

Then you know the answer for the latter group is "none."

Kev,
perhaps it makes you feel better to label me as a corporate suck-up but you have not demonstrated any objectivity to accept a POV different from your own. It is precisely because you refuse to consider that your perspective might not 'splain everything that I persist in posting what I do.

I suspect you post simply because you like being heard. As for trying a POV different from my own, what do you think I've been doing for the last few years? Like I said earlier; the company asked workers to "give them a chance." We did. It's not working.

I have never said that I don't support your efforts to effect change.... rather, I have encouraged you to do so. I just would like to know what measure of success you plan to use and at what intervals in time you will acknowledge that success.

Referring to people as "clueless" is certainly an odd way of showing it.

bingo...I have said that for years and also said that DL employees SHOULD threaten unionization to help push wages up.

Consistently crying wolf is not a viable strategy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

My thanks to each of you for your contributions to the thread.

Jim,
I complete agree with the idea that the value of outsourcing can be measured based on the value of work lost to American workers if that is the intent. That, however, is not the basis for determining total maintenance costs – that is done on the basis of the value of the contract for outsourcing compared to DL’s total maintenance costs.
You could equally argue about the value of manufacturing jobs lost to China but, honestly, what is the point? Walk into Best Buy and try to buy a product built in the USA and there will be huge swaths of the store where you won’t find a single product in a category.
The question is whether there are ANY products or services that are still made in the USA – and the answer is unequivocally that there are.
A recent report showed US competitiveness has fallen dramatically in recent years but they cite that the US still has the most plentiful supply of air transportation in the world. Overhaul maintenance is high focus because it can shipped overseas but the vast majority of airline jobs cannot be exported.

lineguy,
as much as organized labor doesn't like it, DL and Fedex employees both thrive because their employees are able to deliver pay and benefits which their employees believe is as good as they can get elsewhere. It is the "fighting" that other carriers' employees have done that has resulted in more losses to them thru the BK process than what DL and Fedex's non-union employees have lost (or in Fedex's case not gained).
Both companies know where their major workforces live and use that geographic reality to their advantage. It is the same reason why automakers are closing in the old rust belt but still opening in the southern US.
Labor will undoubtedly continue to try to organize DL and FDX employees and you can bet those companies will continue to fight to retain their greater non-union status. But those two companies are still subject to processes that have resulted in new labor unions... so the processes do work.

Dawg,
I will not disagree about the effect 7.5 had on DL people… and the sad reality is that it was perpetrated by an executive – Ron Allen – who came up thru DL’s HR organization and yet failed to understand the basic principles that governed what DL was – or at least was unable to figure out how to solve DL’s cost problems w/o resorting to mass layoffs which is one of the key distinctive of DL.
It is equally ironic that Grinstein – who came to DL through the Western merger – was the one who recognized the key values that had shaped DL and led DL’s return to them to the greatest extent possible during its BK. Yes, Grinstein brought in Mullin and co. who were w/o a doubt the darkest chapter in DL’s leadership and ones that I hope NO company has to live again – but Grinstein recognized his own errors and rebuilt.
And DL’s people largely forgave the “sins” of the past and embraced a return to the previous leadership traits of DL.
Does Anderson blow my socks off? Not a chance. But he does know Delta’s historic strengths and tries to attain them in the midst of a very changed business environment. With all due respect, Woolman built DL during the deregulated era where there was very little true price and cost competition and where the global economy was something that DL had little reason to think about.
DL people understand the world has moved on – but that was also in the day when owning a home was a huge portfolio builder and not a liability on your personal balance sheet and when going to college meant you could just about be assured of a well-paying job that you could either keep or you could move from one company to another in order to advance your career. There is a real good chance that many college graduates won’t get a job and if you have a job and quit it, you might not find another one elsewhere. That is the world we live in now – and DL people by and large can see their world through that context.

You might not want to hear the economic theory, but the reality is that advanced economies move towards specialization – and that means that individual citizens don’t all do the same work – why you and your neighbors don’t have a cow and chickens in your backyard in order to provide your food for next week. (please don’t tell me you have chickens in your backyard in Georgia. J ) I will readily agree that reality hasn’t worked as well as theory but the idea of advanced societies is that one part of the global economy should produce something that others want while you should offer something that others are willing to buy. Thus, DL is at least embracing that part of the theory by insourcing work from other companies. The problem is that US consumers aren’t producing enough things that they do better than other countries but are buying huge amounts of consumer products and petroleum, although there is a lot of hope that the US is capable of using its own natural resources to provide for its own energy needs and have less of an ECONMIC need to be embroiled in difficult geopolitical conflicts purely for the sake of energy. But the point remains that the economy is global and aviation by nature is one of the most global industries.

Once again, what few people want to admit – and thank you Dawg for recognizing it – is that DL DOES import work that other US carriers do not even try to import. There is an offset in what DL has outsourced that is gained back thru insourcing – something other carriers don’t attempt to do. If UA or anyone else insources as much as DL does, they make no attempt to show it in their financial statements.
Yes, DL’s outsourcing has resulted in some bad experiences…. So did DL’s outsourcing of res calls to India. It still remains very possible and within what the company has previously said that they will not increase the amount of outsourcing but will concentrate in a location where they can provide better control. Remember, QRO is a joint venture which gives DL more control than over a subcontractor. There will be DL people who will work at QRO.

Expecting DL to return airframe overhauls to the US falls under the category of “very unlikely,” even in the SE and even at ATL. DL’s decision to get rid of DL North and not do anything w/ NW’s ATL maintenance base indicate they have no desire to expand their maintenance facilities – which means they have to use what they have to generate the greatest profits or do what they do at the lowest cost. Given they have said – and other airlines have validated - that airframe overhauls are not profitable at US labor rates compared to what is available on the global market. But DL has said that insourcing engine and component maintenance generates 10% profits for the company – better than what it does flying passengers around the world. Anderson’s comments about NW not being in the maintenance business are clearly not reflective of DL’s situation – and why DL will use its resources to generate maximum profits. Other carriers COULD do the same thing w/ insourcing but they aren’t – or at least there is no data to show that. People on the AA forums say AA’s insourcing has all but dried up.

Yes, DL mechanics at LAX make less than UA mechanics…. But apparently DL can find ENOUGH people willing to work at DL’s pay rates even in high cost California. That is the measure of whether the free market is working or not. If DL cannot find enough people, they will have to raise pay or shift work elsewhere. UA still has a higher percentage of its heavy maintenance in higher cost locations than DL, even considering what CO has at IAH – which I don’t think is anywhere near the scale of what AA, DL, or UA have respectively at TUL, ATL, or SFO.

The pilots matter to you in that DL has a contract w/ its pilots that gives them salaries at the top of their peerset… there is little fear that DL will have to give its pilot further pay raises above the contract in the next 3 years. In contrast, UA faces enormous pressure to increase its pilot salaries –which means there will be a lot less for other UA employees. Given that UA mechanics are well paid relative to their peers, there is virtually no reason why UA should throw more money at them. Add in that UA’s profits will undoubtedly go down if they are forced to pay their pilots more while DL’s will go based on reduced costs and improved revenue from the refleeting initiatives, refinery, and NYC expansion and the chances are far greater that DL mechanics (and non-contract employees) will see pay raises than will UA mechanics, esp. if you add in profit sharing which for DL employees will surpass UA’s as soon as this year.

Kev,
I completely agree that a contract provides protections compared to a non-contract environment – whether you are talking about labor or an IT contract. But the simple fact is that labor contracts in the airline industry have been decimated with such force in BK court that they provide no more protection than DL’s non-contract policies. If labor contracts actually worked in the US airline industry like they did before deregulation, then the argument about contracts would be valid.
But it also doesn’t change that DL has always given just a little more to its employees than what other carriers give to their union employees. I’m not sure why you find that any more offensive than pattern bargaining because that is exactly what it is.
I’m not sure why it is valid to say that you give up on DL’s vision of labor relations but want to continue w/ your own. Why do you think DL’s efforts should be considered a failure but your pursuit of labor representation is not. Remember, that DL successfully merged over 30K employees into DL who are performing their jobs well and who have not chosen representation using the process which has long been dictated as the means to use in mergers. I commend you for continuing your efforts at seeking what you believe is right but don’t think DL is going to rest on its laurels… and history clearly favors DL in retaining its historic non-union status among non-pilot personnel.

I will agree that terms like “clueless” don’t create an environment based on dialogue – and I appreciate you calling me out on that and apologize for the offense caused.
I will say that I find it just as offensive to be labeled a management lacky because I don’t support the same agenda you and others do.
I also find it offensive to be told that I look down on you because I tell you that I can embrace who you are as a person even if disagree with your ideas. I have repeatedly said that I participate on this forum because it involves the exchange of ideas and I enjoy the challenge of debating positions different from my own. I do not define people by their beliefs or use beliefs as the basis for determining whether I can have a friendship with someone. I just don’t. I’m sorry if you or others do not see that separation but it is absolutely healthy and one that is necessary in order to be able to take positions of leadership where people will absolutely attack your ideas.
I've walked into the house from a number of situations -work, meetings etc - where people tore my ideas up and spit them out... and I had to learn to accept the criticism of my ideas while not seeing the comments of critical of me as a person. Some of my greatest personal growth moments have been in recognizing that I needed to hear the perspective that other people had which resulted in me going back to them at times much later and thank them for their feedback.... some of those people who were brutally honest are some of my best friends and work associates.
The simple fact is that w/o me acting as the contrarian on positions, the discussion would come to an end pretty quickly – and presumably all of us participate because we enjoy defending our position. There is no martyrdom in that observation. Period.
We (collectively) can have a healthy and productive discourse here if ideas are not held so closely to the chest that you suffer personal wounds when those ideas are challenged.

 

[LD3]

I am shocked that you have time for a job.....

 

[WorldTraveler]

don't worry... I manage to lead a full life and still jot a few notes to share here between the other tasks in my life.