Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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By whom and for which party-to-the-agreement's purposes? How many existent grievances are out there as we speak?....The number is huge. What possible, even tiny grain of sanity exists in knowingly signing ANY contractual agreement that's already destined to be "corrected"?
Walmartgreeter
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- Mar 6, 2003
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I did not write this, but agree with everything in it. Good accounting. Greeter
Subject line: Swatting the Fly on the Wall
Dave Ciabattoni has been a busy guy.
He's been a one-man marching band trying to drum up opposition to the MOU. Most of his work has been done behind the scenes under pseudonyms like "Compass Correction" and "Fly on the Wall." Dave hasn't had the guts to say in a public setting what's wrong with the MOU – until yesterday.
Ciabattoni came to the PHL NAC briefing yesterday in full force – but all he did was make a fool of himself. During two of sessions, he stood up and launched an unintelligible diatribe against the MOU. All his points seemed minor and sputtering drivel. It got so bad that a number of the line pilots in the room told him to sit down and shut up. Others came to the meeting to make campaign speeches but only Ciabattoni was shouted down by the PHL pilots. Maybe they've heard just one too many rants over the years – rants that have produced nothing for us.
Look, I don't think this MOU is perfect but from what I can tell, our negotiators got a better deal for us than APA's negotiators got for them.
So, Dave, I have a question for you. I know you're a good pilot but what makes you think you're smarter or a better negotiator that the seven attorneys that USAPA and APA has working for them – attorneys that stood up to two airline companies and their creditors and negotiated a tough agreement that would put $1.6 billion into our pockets?
So who do you believe? Dave or the 11 members of the BPR who voted for this plan? Dave or the 4 member of the NAC who negotiated it? Dave or the 4 officers of USAPA who support it? Dave or USAPA's 3 attorneys who support it? Dave or the 8000 pilots at American who support it?
Dave contends that if we vote down the MOU, he can fix this all through the grievance process. How's that been working out for you?
So I wasn't sure about the MOU before yesterday. Ciabattoni's ranting got me to vote YES today. It isn't perfect but I'm tired of listening to fools like Ciabattoni who rant against everyone but have produced nothing. And even more important, the MOU is a lot better than what we have today.
Joe Pilot
Swatting the Fly on the Wall
Subject line: Swatting the Fly on the Wall
Dave Ciabattoni has been a busy guy.
He's been a one-man marching band trying to drum up opposition to the MOU. Most of his work has been done behind the scenes under pseudonyms like "Compass Correction" and "Fly on the Wall." Dave hasn't had the guts to say in a public setting what's wrong with the MOU – until yesterday.
Ciabattoni came to the PHL NAC briefing yesterday in full force – but all he did was make a fool of himself. During two of sessions, he stood up and launched an unintelligible diatribe against the MOU. All his points seemed minor and sputtering drivel. It got so bad that a number of the line pilots in the room told him to sit down and shut up. Others came to the meeting to make campaign speeches but only Ciabattoni was shouted down by the PHL pilots. Maybe they've heard just one too many rants over the years – rants that have produced nothing for us.
Look, I don't think this MOU is perfect but from what I can tell, our negotiators got a better deal for us than APA's negotiators got for them.
So, Dave, I have a question for you. I know you're a good pilot but what makes you think you're smarter or a better negotiator that the seven attorneys that USAPA and APA has working for them – attorneys that stood up to two airline companies and their creditors and negotiated a tough agreement that would put $1.6 billion into our pockets?
So who do you believe? Dave or the 11 members of the BPR who voted for this plan? Dave or the 4 member of the NAC who negotiated it? Dave or the 4 officers of USAPA who support it? Dave or USAPA's 3 attorneys who support it? Dave or the 8000 pilots at American who support it?
Dave contends that if we vote down the MOU, he can fix this all through the grievance process. How's that been working out for you?
So I wasn't sure about the MOU before yesterday. Ciabattoni's ranting got me to vote YES today. It isn't perfect but I'm tired of listening to fools like Ciabattoni who rant against everyone but have produced nothing. And even more important, the MOU is a lot better than what we have today.
Joe Pilot
Swatting the Fly on the Wall
Which certaiinly explains the APA folks getting a 100K$ signing bonus, versus one tenth of that amount for US pilots.. Sheesh! Enough of this nonsense could harm anyone's digestion.
Oh well. Again, a fine evening to All.
East,
I understand fully about a vague contract, but your arguments are just as vague when you haven't heard the facts.
Go to a roadshow then come back with your fact based opinion....maybe we will all learn something.
breeze
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
- 8,584
- 7,430
The pilots that get $100k... Did they get that after the APA BOD sent out a company offer with a "yes" endorsement that was rejected by the membership?
Did they get $100K after they recalled some of the BOD members that appeared a bit cozy at the thought that management was "just offering the absolute best they would"?
Not to worry, somewhere I remember hearing... "Because its the right thing to do."
We are in coddling hands, aren't we?
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
- 8,584
- 7,430
At what point in our county's evolution did the common "reasonable man" come to accept the premise that facts heard supersede facts that are written..
I respectfully submit that the true facts lie entirely within the instrument and only within it, as is the case with any contractual document. I fully respect everyone's right to vote as they see fit, but to me, quite frankly; accepting this as it now exists seems little short of insane. We've all of us our differing opinions and must follow the course of action we think best.
Exactly. The problem with that notion is that they DON'T.
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
Pi Brat already explained why APA pilots get that money and that they get even if there is no merger.
Us meaning the west pilots? True, your lottery ticket was marginalized by USAPA.
I like to think of your lottery ticket as being right sized by the Union.
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
- Mar 6, 2003
- 1,430
- 1,143
So the road shows are done, the brochures are crumpled and water stained in every kitchen. And we have about a week left to vote.
There is only a win or loss on the referendum, no "close."
I will continue to rant and rave for the entire week, but here is my outline.
This will pass by over 80%.
The MOU is simply the best contract language I have ever seen as a union member. Political foes came and went via elections, committee chairs were removed and replaced. But the professional negotiator prevailed, just as we had envisioned. Our entire legal team told the BPR we needed an MOU. We all know the result of the first iteration. Changes were made, and our guys did battle for MONTHS down at APA, and then WEEKS with the UCC and our own Management. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than Contract 98 or LOA 93. By a longshot. It is well written and well negotiated.
Change of Control was traded for the complete benefit of our ALL our pilots, not just Group II and above on the East. A 190 C/O at top of scale will be making 3 years from now what a 767 C/O makes today. Fair, No. But reasonable, Yes.
The APA guys are not our friends, but by signing this agreement we will share a foxhole. And by sharing that we will be a force of over 10k pilots. By staying equal in pay, we will not only prevent whip saw by Parker (looks like he is "the man" as of late reports) but will also give us equal footing if we go to arbitration on the seniority list. I hope we don't, I hope we come to some agreement with fences and restrictions.
Those that have attended the road shows with an open mind have come out assured the best work has been done, no matter what their vote. Those that have shunned elected office and always wanted to be the naysayers. Good job. It is important to have such rebuttal. But that is over.
Time to vote. Vote in consideration of the most likely outcome, not your worst fears. Were you to live your life that way you would never leave the house (and probably die of Radon.) Years of continued battle with management, working for the world's largest airline at a much better rate of pay? Or a vote for status quo, and fight Kirby and Parker until the end of our days at this little, tiny,(and let me be frank) soon to be regional carrier.
Pay attention. Vote accordingly.
Greeter
There is only a win or loss on the referendum, no "close."
I will continue to rant and rave for the entire week, but here is my outline.
This will pass by over 80%.
The MOU is simply the best contract language I have ever seen as a union member. Political foes came and went via elections, committee chairs were removed and replaced. But the professional negotiator prevailed, just as we had envisioned. Our entire legal team told the BPR we needed an MOU. We all know the result of the first iteration. Changes were made, and our guys did battle for MONTHS down at APA, and then WEEKS with the UCC and our own Management. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than Contract 98 or LOA 93. By a longshot. It is well written and well negotiated.
Change of Control was traded for the complete benefit of our ALL our pilots, not just Group II and above on the East. A 190 C/O at top of scale will be making 3 years from now what a 767 C/O makes today. Fair, No. But reasonable, Yes.
The APA guys are not our friends, but by signing this agreement we will share a foxhole. And by sharing that we will be a force of over 10k pilots. By staying equal in pay, we will not only prevent whip saw by Parker (looks like he is "the man" as of late reports) but will also give us equal footing if we go to arbitration on the seniority list. I hope we don't, I hope we come to some agreement with fences and restrictions.
Those that have attended the road shows with an open mind have come out assured the best work has been done, no matter what their vote. Those that have shunned elected office and always wanted to be the naysayers. Good job. It is important to have such rebuttal. But that is over.
Time to vote. Vote in consideration of the most likely outcome, not your worst fears. Were you to live your life that way you would never leave the house (and probably die of Radon.) Years of continued battle with management, working for the world's largest airline at a much better rate of pay? Or a vote for status quo, and fight Kirby and Parker until the end of our days at this little, tiny,(and let me be frank) soon to be regional carrier.
Pay attention. Vote accordingly.
Greeter
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
The road show is up on the USAPA website.
I think that started the day you imbeciles accepted Seeham's premise that you could trade a "cost neutral contract for labor peace", regardless of the contractually written facts that you were pissing your future into the wind!
Hope that other written fact..LOA93 served you well in the interim to a Nic inclusive contract.
Fine. Now explain to everyone why you're not worth the same, nor is any US pilot....? What were those guestimates? = 1.2-1.5 BILLION in annual synergies to be gained by management?
Sigh! I give up. You "win":
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