Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Come on now... "lists"...plural. Two lists, one East and one West, "in effect". That's not clear enough? The NIC is NOT "in effect".

I don't see that it is indeed, sufficiently clear. I'd submit that just the postings/arguments to be found on this board indicate otherwise. My intended point was/is that precious little in the way of additional verbage would/easily could remove all possible doubt as to the legal intent.

What intent's to be discerned from any written notions of it being "Nic neutral"..? Why's the nic even mentioned, if said intent as you ascribe is unquestionably the case?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Good point. How about the CoC proponents posting some hard numbers first?

yeah, like the NAC only has until 2/8/2013 to get the comparison out.

Nice job, Owens.

 

[end_of_alpa]

It is funny you mention the presentation, especially the items that aren't in "BOLD" print. Anyway ,have to agree on the Coc total economic thing, except now instead of litigation we get an "IOU" from a guy that can negotiate in a week with 3 AMR groups and drag us along for years! Voted NO!, Scope and that NAC update put out this morning a real affirmation moment! MM! GOOD LUCK!

can someone post the NAC email?

 

[A320 Driver]

I don't see that is indeed sufficiently clear. I'd submit that just the postings/arguments to be found on this board indicate otherwise. My intended point was/is that precious little in the way of additional verbage would/easily could remove all possible doubt as to the legal intent.

What intent's to be discerned from any written notions of it being "Nic neutral"..? Why's the nic even mentioned, if said intent as you ascribe is unquestionably the case?

I quoted in a later post the verbiage the NAC used to describe the current situation. I doubt any argument I might make in support of it would be enough. It's clear to me, not so to others...that is just the nature of the beast I suppose.

 

[EastUS1]

I quoted in a later post the verbiage the NAC used to describe the current situation. I doubt any argument I might make in support of it would be enough. It's clear to me, not so to others...that is just the nature of the beast I suppose.

No legal document ever to be seen will I accept on even the slightest basis of "faith", but rather on the merits of it's properly specific language. Your very observation that "It's clear to me, not so to others." makes my point here. Any well-constructed legal instrument always and needs must be clear to ALL...Period! Heck!...The bulk of the legal profession exists only on the potential for argument.

Beyond seniority issues: ANYthing that can be "misinterpreted" or in ANY way, shape or form be taken advantage of WILL be treated accordingly by management.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Got a copy. Never mind.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Got a copy. Never mind.

"One of the misconceptions we have heard is that the entire Merger Transition Agreement (MTA) will be implemented on the Effective Date. Currently there are only two items that are certain to be implemented on the Effective Date: pay and the 14% DC contribution. The MOU provides that "each term of the MTA shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term. . . ." We will be developing an implementation schedule with the Company and APA. Once that process is complete, we will know when other aspects of the contract will be implemented."

Happy happy, joy, joy!

APA and USAPA determine the terms but implementation STARTS on ED for only pay ad 14%. It's not pilots discretion, it's COMPANY discretion. Wait for it....wait for it.....

 

[EastUS1]

"One of the misconceptions we have heard is that the entire Merger Transition Agreement (MTA) will be implemented on the Effective Date. Currently there are only two items that are certain to be implemented on the Effective Date: pay and the 14% DC contribution. The MOU provides that "each term of the MTA shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term. . . ." We will be developing an implementation schedule with the Company and APA. Once that process is complete, we will know when other aspects of the contract will be implemented."

Happy happy, joy, joy!

APA and USAPA determine the terms but implementation STARTS on ED for only pay ad 14%. It's not pilots discretion, it's COMPANY discretion. Wait for it....wait for it.....

" It's not pilots discretion, it's COMPANY discretion. Wait for it....wait for it....." Indeed! What sort of true genius EVER allows for such in ANY agreement? Perhaps I also missed the part where the company's at ALL, in even the slightest degree, liable for ANY penalties for simply sitting on that pay in virtual perpetuity....?

Side issue here, but just consider how well they've previously "honored" proper pay via the ACARS times "adjustments"/manipulations alone? I once had a fine professor that practiced within the criminal system. I'll never forget his notions on "Trust" = Whenever interviewing perpetual violent felons, he always put full Trust in them to be not-so-good people.

 

[end_of_alpa]

No legal document ever to be seen will I accept on even the slightest basis of "faith", but rather on the merits of it's properly specific language. Your very observation that "It's clear to me, not so to others." makes my point here. Any well-constructed legal instrument always and needs must be clear to ALL...Period! Heck!...The bulk of the legal profession exists only on the existence of potential argument.

Beyond seniority issues: ANYthing that can be "misinterpreted" or in ANY way, shape or form be taken advantage of WILL be treated accordingly by management.

Key word: FAITH. Not a whole lot of that around here lately. I may be dating myself here, but used to listen to a group called "Blind Faith", a rock group that formed from the break up of Cream.

See any parallel here?

 

[Piedmont1984]

It is funny you mention the presentation, especially the items that aren't in "BOLD" print. Anyway ,have to agree on the Coc total economic thing, except now instead of litigation we get an "IOU" from a guy that can negotiate in a week with 3 AMR groups and drag us along for years! Voted NO!, Scope and that NAC update put out this morning a real affirmation moment! MM! GOOD LUCK!

See MM, that's the difference between you and I. I haven't voted yet. I'm stll asking questions and talking to people and researching the archives for more info. Some, such as yourself, made their minds up before the polls were even open. They made their decisions based partly on emotion - animosity against present union leadership, or management, or just plain 'rage against the machine'. If I'm a fence sitter, then is it fair to call you a trigger finger? Good Luck to you as well.

Oh, almost forgot. I said "presentation' not 'the presentation" as in how the brochure looks. Grammar is important. It's the difference between 'I can see you're nuts' and "I can see your nuts' .

 

[end_of_alpa]

" It's not pilots discretion, it's COMPANY discretion. Wait for it....wait for it....." Indeed! What sort of true genius EVER allows for such in ANY agreement? Perhaps I also missed the part where the company's at ALL, in even the slightest degree, liable for ANY penalties for simply sitting on that pay in virtual perpetuity....?

Side issue here, but just consider how well they've previously "honored" proper pay via the ACARS times "adjustments"/manipulations alone?

BAZINGA!

 

[A320 Driver]

"One of the misconceptions we have heard is that the entire Merger Transition Agreement (MTA) will be implemented on the Effective Date. Currently there are only two items that are certain to be implemented on the Effective Date: pay and the 14% DC contribution. The MOU provides that "each term of the MTA shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term. . . ." We will be developing an implementation schedule with the Company and APA. Once that process is complete, we will know when other aspects of the contract will be implemented."

Happy happy, joy, joy!

APA and USAPA determine the terms but implementation STARTS on ED for only pay ad 14%. It's not pilots discretion, it's COMPANY discretion. Wait for it....wait for it.....

That's understandable. Take the reserve system for example. A lot of work goes into a major change in scheduling and a timetable has to be set up for that. Same thing with the PB system and the new medical benefits. We get the big ticket items up front. Pay and additional DCP rates. The rest have much to do with moving all of us to the AA Green Book and that doesn't happen over night, nor would you want it to. There is no point in the company investing the money to make all of these changes until the judge states there is a merger.

 

[EastUS1]

Key word: FAITH. Not a whole lot of that around here lately. I may be dating myself here, but used to listen to a group called "Blind Faith", a rock group that formed from the break up of Cream.

See any parallel here?

"See any parallel here?" Not-so-much per the Blind Faith reference, since their music was enjoyable. What we're listening to around here and with this MOU? = Not-so-much so.

"Key word: FAITH. Not a whole lot of that around here lately. " Nor should there be. What would/could ANY such be reasonably based on? I've full Trust and Faith only in the fact that anything that can be exploited, "misinterpreted", etc WILL be.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

See MM, that's the difference between you and I. I haven't voted yet. I'm stll asking questions and talking to people and researching the archives for more info. Some, such as yourself, made their minds up before the polls were even open. They made their decisions based partly on emotion - animosity against present union leadership, or management, or just plain 'rage against the machine'. If I'm a fence sitter, then is it fair to call you a trigger finger? Good Luck to you as well.

Oh, almost forgot. I said "presentation' not 'the presentation" as in how the brochure looks. Grammar is important. It's the difference between 'I can see you're nuts' and "I can see your nuts' .

Actually I went to the CLT road show and voted 10 mins ago, your right grammar is important, If your an english major! It's a printed document, not the MAGNA CARTA, you are correct about one thing , you are different! GOOD LUCK! MM

 

[EastUS1]

See MM, that's the difference between you and I. I haven't voted yet. I'm stll asking questions and talking to people and researching the archives for more info. Some, such as yourself, made their minds up before the polls were even open. They made their decisions based partly on emotion - animosity against present union leadership, or management, or just plain 'rage against the machine'. If I'm a fence sitter, then is it fair to call you a trigger finger? Good Luck to you as well.

In my admittedly not-too-humble opinion; I agree with your thoughts there and I'd think that any and all should think this thing through completely and examine even the finest details (or damning lack thereof) very closely. Whatever anyone's final decision is...well...much thought is properly owed this issue.