Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

It did not happen.....

Luv is throwing out another lie trying to paint the West in a bad light.

He is the the biggest scab POS on this board, and has been caught in his fabrications over and over and over again!

How bout we bet a years salary on that one. You won't even have the balls to admit this one when your wrong.

 

[fifidriver]

Greetings Gladiators!

Happy Friday. Thanks for all the info and viewpoints. Can anyone tell me where to locate the actual "Change of Control" language? Or if anyone care to opine, I am interested, in layman's term's, what exactly it would take to actually trigger it. Is just keeping the AA name on the door enough? Any thoughts?,

Just for the record, I am probably a "no" vote. From a personal standpoint, the additional hourly raise (approx $20) capped at 86 hr average per month is about a wash compared to average credit (high 90's) that I usually post. Also with the lower duty rig, I believe that I would have to fly a comparable number of days per month. The STD/LTD and medical are drawbacks, but the 16% contribution probably offsets. The big drawback for me is the minimum block hours giveback. For a "Westie", that has immense downside risk. As I see it, that is the only "leverage" in the West's toolbox.

It seems that the only leverage in the East's arsenal, is CoC. Has anyone tried to put a dollar value on it? Sure you would go to "book rates", but for how long? Til a JCBA? It seems that is what Mr. Parker has at risk. Would he then actually pay out or would litigation be required? What is that worth, considering legal costs and the time/value of that money?

It is strange to be agreeing with my "esteemed colleagues from across the aisle", but from my perspective at this time, my vote is "no". All things considered, it might be conceivable that yours should be "yes".

...No, I haven't popped a top yet, but here I go! Happy Friday!!! BTW: I do solemnly swear NOT to post when I get back tonight... Cheers!

 

[EastUS1]

Why is it that you know more than the NAC, our lawyers, our paid advisor and the APA plus most of USAPA leadership?

You only ommitted the valuable info also gleaned from listening to "the voices" after downing enough of the koolaide.

As you bring a copy of the MOU through the doors of any road show: does the specific (or wholesale lack thereof) contractul language magically change? Do the compensation numbers inflate themselves any? Does the signing bonus go up any? Do the medical costs go down? Does any semblance of a firm schedule for receiving whatever, entirely vague, retro-pay that's "promised" even appear?

Sigh!...Nevermind...Just pass me another glossy "sales brochure" and I'll try to do my best to keep up with you here...Pass on the koolaide though.

 

[Zone5]

Just to be clear: We have no DBP.

OOPS! Just when I thought I was going to make it through life without having ever misspoken. I meant DC Plan. Under the "New MOU", if you find yourself on LTD, you will also NOT receive any DC contribution from the company, nothing like kicking someone when they are down. Like many things, in any contract, the reality is very different from the "Big Picture" bottom line. In this case, we will increase your LTD "Benefit" from 50 to 60 percent, at the same time decreasing your overall compensation by 10, then 14 and then 16 percent, deal?! Zero sum is bad enough, but do we always have to be backing up?

Speaking of "Big Picture" fine print, try reading and then actually understanding the AMR Reserve System. Near as I can tell, it is written in such a manner as to make it virtually impossible to understand what the likelihood of having to cover a trip might be at any given time while "on duty". Not to worry though, as long as you are "Reasonably available by ground transportation" you have nothing to be concerned about. Did I mention that I travel by horseback?


seajay

 

[Zone5]

You only ommitted the valuable info also gleaned from listening to "the voices" after downing enough of the koolaide.

As you bring a copy of the MOU through the doors of any road show: does the specific (or wholesale lack thereof) contractul language magically change? Do the compensation numbers inflate themselves any? Does the signing bonus go up any? Do the medical costs go down? Does any semblance of a firm schedule for receiving whatever, entirely vague, retro-pay that's "promised" even appear?

Sigh!...Nevermind...Just pass me another glossy "sales brochure" and I'll try to do my best to keep up with you here...Pass on the koolaide though.

Just to be clear: The participants at Jonestown drank poison laced "FlavorAide" not "KoolAide". Not that it mattered in the "Big Picture".


seajay

 

[algflyr]

Can anyone tell me where to locate the actual "Change of Control" language?

The Change of Control is defined in Section 1D.

The 2002 Restructuring Agreement states :

Upon a change in control as defined in Section 1(D)2. of the Agreement, hourly rates of pay will be the greater of the existing rates of pay or the Book Rates. In addition to such hourly rates of pay, the Association will have the same right specified in Section 1(D)2 of the Agreement to extend the duration of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement for one, two or three years at the Association’s option, past the amendable date of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement, with across-the-board wage increases of four and one half percent (4.5%) on the amendable date and on each annual anniversary of the amendable date thereafter.

So now we go to Section 1(D)2:


2. In the event that, through a single transaction or in multi-step related transactions (i) securities which constitute and/or are then-currently exchangeable into, exercisable for, or convertible into 50 percent or more of Denominator Common Stock (as defined below), and/or (ii) 50 percent or more of the value of the assets, of the Company or US Airways Group, and/or (iii) Control of the Company or US Airways Group as defined in Section 1(J) below, are acquired or held by a single purchaser (or a group of purchasers acting in concert) (any such transaction(s) referred to as a "Change in Control"), the Association shall, in addition to all other rights, thereupon have the right in its sole discretion, upon written notice to the Company within 60 days of written notice of such transaction, to extend the duration of the Agreement for one, two or three years at the Association's option, past the amendable date of the Agreement with across-the-board wage increases of four and one half percent (4.5%) on January 2, 2003 and each annual anniversary of the amendable date thereafter (i.e., on January 2, 2004, January 2, 2005, January 2, 2006). For purposes of this Section, Denominator Common Stock is the common stock of US Airways Group then outstanding and the common stock issuable on exchange, exercise, and/or conversion of securities of the Company or US Airways Group which are then currently exchangeable into, exercisable for, or convertible into such common stock.

Also from the2002 Restructuring Agreement:


The hourly pay rates in effect on June 30, 2002 will be known as
the Book Rates.

 

[algflyr]

Section 1(J):


(J) Definitions

The following definitions apply to certain terms used in this Section 1

1. Control. Entity A shall be deemed to “control” Entity B if Entity A,
whether directly or indirectly:
a. owns voting securities that constitute or may at any time be exercised,
exchanged or converted for or into fifty percent (50%) or more of Entity B's Denominator Common Stock as defined in Section 1(D) above, or

b. maintains the power, right, privilege or authority -- by contract or
otherwise -- to direct, manage or direct the management of a substantial or greater portion of Entity B's operations; or

c. maintains the power, right or authority to appoint or prevent the appointment of a majority of Entity B's Board of Directors, or governing body having substantially the powers and duties of a board of directors, or similar governing body.

This definition of “control” shall apply whether through direct relationship or indirectly
through intermediate entities. Entity A and Entity B shall be deemed to be under “common control” with each other if any third entity controls both Entity A and Entity B whether directly or indirectly through the control of other entities that control Entity A and Entity B.

 

[cleardirect]

Well to you westies throwing us off the jumpseat I think you will be hearing from Skinner soon or at least one Capt on flt 560 MCO-PHL the other day. An east pilot trying to get to work was refused jumpseat while leaving the cockpit both were laughing about, real class act these two.

Skinner has nothing to do with the jump seat.

You can go whine to him if you want but he will not do anything.

I alway like to hear the other side of the story. Why was he denied? Being a dick will get you booted I don't care what airline you work for.

 

[cleardirect]

But it does matter that your vacation is going to take a hit if this MOU is ratified. Typical.

I'll get the APA right on that.

The west vacation does not change. Read the MOU. It says the west method will be used.

 

[dca319]

I wouldn't trust anything these officers put out.

Hate

And here I thought we put a "pilot's union" in place.

 

[Piedmont1984]

algflyr

Where are the 2002 Book Rates found?

 

[Zone5]

The west vacation does not change. Read the MOU. It says the west method will be used.

Not true. You need to read the "fine print" in the MOU/AMR Contract. There are lots of positive changes to the "West" (and East) vacation provisions over and above the number of days. For instance, unused vacation no longer just goes away, you get cashed out if not used. There are others, including awards based on LOS.


seajay

 

[dca319]

We DO NOT get the new pay rates on the vote. But first, lets agree on one
thing, let's limit our discussion to the MOU and the USAPA Flight Plan (FP) to a
Merger.

Read page 4 of FP. It states:
"US Airways pilots will "VOTE" to determine final approval of the MOU.
PENDING approval of the MOU, USAPA and AA will work together to convert the MOU
and specified provisions (?) of the APA 2012 CBA into a Merger Transition
Agreement (MTA), which will serve as the "interim contract for the pilots of US
Airways and American Airlines" from the EFFECTIVE DATE UNTIL FINAL JCBA.
IF APPROVAL (February 8, 2013) then:
"Upon bankruptcy court approval of a POR to "merge US Airways and American
Airlines", the merger will begin to be finalized. The date of approval of the
POR WILL BE KNOWN AS THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE MERGER. ON THIS DATE (ED):
MOU = MTA.
3. Beginning on the effective date of the POR (the “Effective Date&rdquo, pilots
employed by US Airways shall be paid in accordance with the provisions of the
MTA that are generally applicable to pilots employed by New American Airlines.

In short, MOU (February 8) + ED = MTA

Also, read paragraph 18(c.) and (d.) which states:

"For purposes of clarity, this Memorandum shall be null and void in its entirety and as to all Parties if the Merger is not consummated."

We do get get AA's pay rates on 2/8. True that we don't see the extra cash until the ED, but we do eventually see it in the form of a retro check.
And whether or not we submit one or two lists is immaterial. The only thing being exchanged it data nothing more so even the ordering of pilots is irrelevant as the APA will parse the list and construct their own combined SL. USAPA will do the same with APA's list and then submit its own list and we more than likely go right into arbitration.

 

[algflyr]

algflyr

Where are the 2002 Book Rates found?

That's a little more elusive. I tried to find them with no success tonight... I've heard some say it's the parity plus 1 rates. I've also heard it's the contract rates plus the yearly percentages added to them. I know they are higher than the MOU rates. Perhaps that's a good question at a roadshow.

I'm sure it would be easy for someone to track down a paystub from June 2002. I know the Union has access to this info. If I find it, I will post it ...

 

[dca319]

That's a little more elusive. I tried to find them with no success tonight... I've heard some say it's the parity plus 1 rates. I've also heard it's the contract rates plus the yearly percentages added to them. I know they are higher than the MOU rates. Perhaps that's a good question at a roadshow.

I'm sure it would be easy for someone to track down a paystub from June 2002. I know the Union has access to this info. If I find it, I will post it ...

Are all the aircraft groups covered with CoC?