Deadlines....
- Thread starter jack mama
- Start date
to much time to quit
Senior
- Jun 17, 2003
- 318
- 7
The info you requested from 320 is strictly confidential and top secret. Just blindly vote yes to everything or the PAIN will be tremendous. The steamroller is comimg down the runway.NeedForSpeedNFS said:
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #63
jimntx,
I could very well be misreading the loan document. But instead of co-signing for a brother-in-law, I compare the ATSB-backed loan to a student loan - both backed by the government. We've all seen media stories over the years where doctors, lawyers, etc didn't repay their student loans and the banks never put them into BK. The lenders just collected the money from the government and everybody was happy - except the taxpayers. In these cases the government could come after the deadbeat, but usually doesn't.
That's why I think the ATSB calls the shots, and so far has required enough "cash" on hand to repay the loan (except for a short period earlier this year).
As for RSA, they are a Tranche B lender. Without going back and adding up the numbers, I think it's about $35 million they still have outstanding (and, of course, not counting any prepayments made in this quarter that haven't been made public). This would not disappear in a BK, but the $240 equity investment probably would.
Jim
I could very well be misreading the loan document. But instead of co-signing for a brother-in-law, I compare the ATSB-backed loan to a student loan - both backed by the government. We've all seen media stories over the years where doctors, lawyers, etc didn't repay their student loans and the banks never put them into BK. The lenders just collected the money from the government and everybody was happy - except the taxpayers. In these cases the government could come after the deadbeat, but usually doesn't.
That's why I think the ATSB calls the shots, and so far has required enough "cash" on hand to repay the loan (except for a short period earlier this year).
As for RSA, they are a Tranche B lender. Without going back and adding up the numbers, I think it's about $35 million they still have outstanding (and, of course, not counting any prepayments made in this quarter that haven't been made public). This would not disappear in a BK, but the $240 equity investment probably would.
Jim
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
- Aug 23, 2002
- 2,627
- 945
jimntx said:I'm no expert, but I think you are misreading the loan document. Basically, what you are saying is that if you (stand-in for ATSB) co-sign a note for your dear shiftless brother-in-law (stand-in for US Airways), the bank can not call his note because you have guaranteed it and they are not hurt by his nonpayment. And because of that fact, the bank can not force him into bankruptcy, only you can. Under the law, the bank can not actually collect from the co-signer until AFTER it has declared the loan in default and called it.
I don't know why you all keep harping about the RSA in this situation. RSA will neither be hurt by losing it's US Airways investment (less than 1% of the total assets of the system) nor will it come out ahead if US Airways fails. You made reference to RSA being the creditor for the unsecured part of the loan. It is my understanding that the total RSA involvement is that the retirement system paid $240 million for 37% of the common stock. That is not a loan. It is an investment. (If only it were a loan. There are several major corporations out there who would owe me big time for their stock's performance over the last 2 years!!)
In bankruptcy, the stockholders are the only group which usually make out worse than the employees. I don't believe that they are even classified as unsecured creditors. They are owners of the company. In the most technical sense, the creditors could come after the stockholders as owners to pay part of the debts of the company. It's not done, but it is a concept discussed in law schools. (I don't let it be known in polite society, but I have several friends who are lawyers.)
[post="175883"][/post]
Not exactly sure what you're saying here, but cosigned loans cannot be called until BOTH parties are given an opportunity to pay them. Then, when they are called, BOTH parties are at risk. Bank gets it's money somehow. So, the way I see it, UAIR is the borrower, ATSB is the cosigner. If UAIR doesn't pay, the ATSB, as the cosigner, gets to hammer 'em. The banks can only hammer UAIR AFTER they try to recoup their cash from the ATSB, whom is presumed to be a good credit risk and WILL pay them. Therefore, I believe that the ATSB wields the axe here, not the banks. Just like any cosigned loan. The portion of the loan which is NOT cosigned by the ATSB, loaned by the RSA, puts the RSA at more risk and gives them a more direct voice in its disposition.
Dog Wonder said:
Dog:
With the current state of negotiations with
ALPA, CWA, and AFA, the company will
most likely seek court protection this
weekend. I believe the company is going
to give each of the unions until midnight
tonight and then they will drop the hammer
tomorrow morning.
It's never a good thing for a company to
enter a Chapter 11 proceeding, however,
in this case, it is probably the only way
the antiquated union wages and work
rules can be adjusted enough to bring
costs in line with future revenue projections.
Then again, the company could lose total
control of the situation and be forced into
a Chapter 7 by creditors. We'll have to
watch this closely.
BostonTerrier
Advanced
- May 2, 2003
- 178
- 0
SpinDoc said:
Midnight tonight, huh?
And a BK filing tomorrow morning?
I'm intrigued. Is this a hunch or actually based on some sort of fact known to you?
BT
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
SpinDoc said:
Spin,
The co. has not met with AFA to get the counter proposal. Why?
Only thing I can guess is that they are busy (very intensely busy) trying to hammer the pilots FIRST. The rest will come later.
I know that the co. has not approached TWU yet. Only gave them a target number. And its $8 million; not 4. Unless they "last minute" changed that unrealistic figure, or have placed it on another group. The pilots and the f/as cost target has increased with subsequent proposals by the company.
At this point, and with the proposals from the co. that were given to all of labor, it would behoove us to engage negotiations in BK. The proposals ARE abrogations, therefore, they would FAIL if sent out for a vote by labor. Especially the fact that 30% of the population of workers will be gone with these proposals.
willyloman
Member
- Jan 23, 2003
- 72
- 0
UAIR Stock is way up this week.Does somebody yikes to gamble or is the market telling us NO BANKRUPCTY ?
jimntx
Veteran
willyloman said:
Almost all airline stocks were up at least a little for the week, due to the slight easing in oil prices. Then too, if some big time players in the markets have been doing extremely well this year in short term investments, it's getting to be time to buy some dogs to show some short-term losses before tax season arrives.
