Dal Liquidation

[WorldTraveler]

Mikey,
Why don't you check w/ jimntx about his quote about AA being scared about Wright being repealed? I would hate to go to the trouble of finding it but it's in this board and not more than a couple weeks old. DFW airport and AA are the only ones that seem to think the Wright amendment is right for the citizens of N. Texas. If AA is so sure of its ability to compete against the LCCs of the world, then pull down the artificial restraints to competition and face the music. No other city in the nation has to put up with such protectionism. AA is fighting to keep Wright because they know it will cost them billions (yes, that's a "B"). Do you know how much revenue AA gets from DFW? multi-billions - like 3-5. yields on the transcon markets fell 30% plus the year B6 entered the transcon markets and they will fall even further as DL firmly establishes itself in the JFK transcons with Song - a product that has been estimated to have 20% lower costs than DL mainline.

Let''s not talk about the number of hubs AA has opened and closed when compared w/ Delta. However, I'll mention Raleigh, Nashville, St. Louis, and San Jose. AA has closed as many hubs since deregulation as DL (or any other US legacy airline) ever operated! Guess someone can't seem to get it right.

And while we talk about costs, you do realize that DL's mainline costs were within 5% of AA's for the first quarter, don't you? Like US, DL has faced more low cost competition than other carriers but you are fooling yourself if you think AA is protected from all that has rocked the rest of the industry. I'm not saying that AA is in any danger of failing but you can be assured the ride at AA is not going to get smoother any time soon. Wide open terminals at DFW and STL and hundreds of jets on order by the LCCs will make sure of that.

The Amex loan is for advance revenue; DL gets hundreds of millions of dollars from Amex every year because of the Skymiles credit card. There is no reason to think Amex won't continue to loan DL money as long as Amex gets paid the interest.

Delta is far from gone and it surely will be kicking long after other carriers in the US have come and gone.

 

[FA Mikey]

Mikey,
Why don't you check w/ jimntx about his quote about AA being scared about Wright being repealed? I would hate to go to the trouble of finding it but it's in this board and not more than a couple weeks old. DFW airport and AA are the only ones that seem to think the Wright amendment is right for the citizens of N. Texas.

[post="268915"][/post]​

Add to it the people who live in the neighborhoods around there and all the people who have yet to let the restriction pass. Whether it does stay or go, it will be a minimal effect on AA's DFW operation and its overall yields.

If AA is so sure of its ability to compete against the LCCs of the world, then pull down the artificial restraints to competition and face the music. No other city in the nation has to put up with such protectionism.

[post="268915"][/post]​

you mean like the slot restrctions or milagle limits inposed by other airports. They all have restrictions of some sort. Some more than others.

AA is fighting to keep Wright because they know it will cost them billions (yes, that's a "B"). Do you know how much revenue AA gets from DFW? multi-billions - like 3-5.

[post="268915"][/post]​

In your dreams it will not cost them billions or a hub operation in Dallas. Yes some yeilds will drop AA will ajust to the market as it see's fit.

yields on the transcon markets fell 30% plus the year B6 entered the transcon markets and they will fall even further as DL firmly establishes itself in the JFK transcons with Song - a product that has been estimated to have 20% lower costs than DL mainline.

[post="268915"][/post]​

Interesting 20% lower than Delta. Competing against ones own company for lower costs, must be a difficult thing to do. But I guess it makes your assessment look better with larger numbers and percentages. How does Song compare to B6 or AA? How much more premium is AA moving over song and B6? Not such an easy thing to compare.

Let''s not talk about the number of hubs AA has opened and closed when compared w/ Delta. However, I'll mention Raleigh, Nashville, St. Louis, and San Jose. AA has closed as many hubs since deregulation as DL (or any other US legacy airline) ever operated! Guess someone can't seem to get it right.

[post="268915"][/post]​

Shoot we didnt know there was going to be a hub closing contest. If we had known that perhaps we could have kept the money losing ones open so to look better in your Ill-conceived illogical comparison to DAL. PS you forgot RNO.

And while we talk about costs, you do realize that DL's mainline costs were within 5% of AA's for the first quarter, don't you?

[post="268915"][/post]​

Which means alot when there liquidtiy is such they may not be able to operate under BK 11. So then does it matter if your costs are 80% lower than AA? No not really. Not in the real world.

Like US, DL has faced more low cost competition than other carriers but you are fooling yourself if you think AA is protected from all that has rocked the rest of the industry. I'm not saying that AA is in any danger of failing but you can be assured the ride at AA is not going to get smoother any time soon. Wide open terminals at DFW and STL and hundreds of jets on order by the LCCs will make sure of that.

[post="268915"][/post]​

I dont know that anyone said it would be. AA and the rest of the older carriers are being hurt as much by the BK carriers as they are the lcc's. At some point something has got to give.

The Amex loan is for advance revenue; DL gets hundreds of millions of dollars from Amex every year because of the Skymiles credit card. There is no reason to think Amex won't continue to loan DL money as long as Amex gets paid the interest.

Delta is far from gone and it surely will be kicking long after other carriers in the US have come and gone.

[post="268915"][/post]​

I will have to check with AMEX, I wasnt aware they were in the business of corporate welfare. How does DAL plan to even pay the intrest? its a deep hole the last chairman dug delta in to.

 

[Vikedog64]

DAL should make sure it learns what not to do by looking at USAirways. You can't shrink yourself to profitability. Selling off certain assets is like a homeless person selling your coat for food. Sure, you'll be able to fill your belly for a little while, but you'll freeze to death when the sun goes down. Just my opinion.

[post="268761"][/post]​

The bottom line is this. DAL is 20.5 billion in debt. At this point we are not shrinking, but growing. Jerry stated this year that we cannot shrink to profitability. If you look at our last quarter numbers, there were some good signs. Mainline unit costs down 12.7 percent. An operating profit of around 165 mil(about 100mil more that UAL.) I agree with World Traveller. There is posturing going on and DAL needs cash to bridge into 2006 when alot of our cost cuts really take hold. I see alot of good things happening here and I remain quite optomistic once we enter mid 2006. Alot of you may not agree, but DAL has taken a very aggressive direction in the need for cost savings. Any airline that cannot lower their costs within cents of the Lcc's will not be around for the long haul. 😉

 

[mistified]

"Get a life you losers. Delta is the most politically savvy airline in the bunch. "

"DL management knows exactly what they are doing. "

" From a network and asset perspective, US is little more than a miniature DL (or DL is little more than an oversized US); neither have hugely valuable rights and are predominantly east coast players. "

"Let's dispense with the histeria and try using your brains.... I know it's hard to do for some of you but give it a try."

[post="268782"][/post]​

WorldTraveler
It's clear you have lost all objectivity. Your tone smacks of bias.
If your arguments had any hope of creditability, it is all but gone.
There must be some heavy emotional attachment to DAL because you are perfecting the art of rationalization and defensive comebacks. It really is getting comical.
i.e. "my dog is bigger than yours" ..." don't worry it's a dry heat" etc......
I think your the one who needs to calm down and dispense with the
HYSTERIA (check spelling).
In short , you no longer appear the great intellect you think you are.

It's sad to see any airline in dire straits such as DAL. I wish them all well!

 

[WorldTraveler]

actually, mistified, the objectivity is lost on all those who are swept up by the histeria put out by the media - alot of which is being fanned by Delta to serve its own purposes. Rational thinkers can look past the hoopla and see what's really going on.... which apparently means there isn't a whole lot of rationality on this board since few can see the real picture. let's go back to the beginning of this post where I called BS on the morons who posted something as ridiculous as to say that DL is at risk of liquidating. You know full well that is no more likely than President Bush winning another term...
defensiveness is all about failing to recognize the truth. Rationality is being able to see the truth and believe it. Would you like to send me your address so I can drop in for a free meal when DL liquidates since you are so certain I'm wrong? Back your rhetoric up, buddy.

Mikey,
it is apparently you who have drunk the coolaid. If AA has so little to lose w/ the Wright amendment, then why the heck are they fighting so hard to keep it in place? They have lots to lose and they will. Good for DL for making AA face the music. DL protected AA for years by operating a hub at DFW even thought they supposedly made money there for just two years. Then DL lowered fares across the nation - in every market. But AA - like NW at MSP and DTW - chose not to match those fares in every market and the poor citizens of North Texas pay the price. I spent a number of years in a Texas city that DOES affordable air transportation; it is my civic duty to assist in freeing the people of the Metroplex from AA's exorbitant grips. I've informed Southwest I'll do all I can to help.

DL entered the transcon markets w/ Song and lower fares and costs because it was the right thing to do for Delta. Just as NW thought it was right for them to offer one day minimum stay business fares years ago when the rest of the industry thought it was a terrible idea, Delta thought it was the right thing to do for Delta to lower business fares around the nation - in every market (which Delta serves better than any other US carrier as evidenced by it's world-leading position of operating a nationwide transportation system instead of picking off just a few nonstop markets but I digress). AA is obviously peeved that Delta has picked off market after market of AA's (S. America, transcons). AA's answer... a couple of tired Super 80 flights from protected LGA to Florida.

Finally, corporate welfare would be if Amex gave the money to Delta. Delta is paying interest for it - to the tune of about $750 million this year. Being in debt is a big drag but some companies consider it more responsible and better business sense to pay their bills and plan for the future rather than dump their obligations in bankruptcy.

 

[UseYourHead]

Boy,

You really are a piece of work. I bet you just gloat at the plight of all of the "real" airline employees". I worked with people like you when I was at People Express, folks who couldn't wait to see pain inflicted on others...that my friend is very bad Karma.

I would never wish bad on Southwest folks for deystroying the industry as we all knew it, but the likes of you is what turns people against your airline killer.

You are sad example of a fellow airline employee...shame on you!

Well folks we can take comfort in this. If a company as $hitty as U can make it, there is hope for anyone.

[post="268841"][/post]​

 

[FA Mikey]

Mikey,
it is apparently you who have drunk the coolaid. If AA has so little to lose w/ the Wright amendment, then why the heck are they fighting so hard to keep it in place?

[post="269010"][/post]​

Like anything that may have an adverse effect on the bottom line you fight to protect. Not matter how large or small. To not would be foolish.

They have lots to lose and they will.

[post="269010"][/post]​

We have lost alot, I am sure we will lose more. But with a stronger balance sheet, and a history of competing with LUV since its birth. This is not the end of the world for AA.

Good for DL for making AA face the music. DL protected AA for years by operating a hub at DFW even thought they supposedly made money there for just two years.

[post="269010"][/post]​

And then with those kinds of numbers, and that kind of management and planning. is it any wonder they are near BK. Operate a money losing hub for how many years? Did they finally give up on the fact that it wouldnt start making money all of a sudden.

Then DL lowered fares across the nation - in every market. But AA - like NW at MSP and DTW - chose not to match those fares in every market and the poor citizens of North Texas pay the price.

[post="269010"][/post]​

Oh my I didn't know DAL was so benevolent. That there whole purpose was to provide low fares on flights and AA and NWA have screwed that up for the good people of TX, MN and MI.

I think the good employees of DAL are paying the price. There pay and work rule cuts are funding this failed fare plan and seeing the company near oblivion.

I spent a number of years in a Texas city that DOES affordable air transportation; it is my civic duty to assist in freeing the people of the Metroplex from AA's exorbitant grips. I've informed Southwest I'll do all I can to help.

[post="269010"][/post]​

Does that job come with a cape and tights?

DL entered the transcon markets w/ Song and lower fares and costs because it was the right thing to do for Delta. Just as NW thought it was right for them to offer one day minimum stay business fares years ago when the rest of the industry thought it was a terrible idea, Delta thought it was the right thing to do for Delta to lower business fares around the nation - in every market (which Delta serves better than any other US carrier as evidenced by it's world-leading position of operating a nationwide transportation system instead of picking off just a few nonstop markets but I digress).

[post="269010"][/post]​

you digress while I regurgitate. LOL, World leading in what? OK if nothing else this one did make me laugh. You got me there. LOL

AA is obviously peeved that Delta has picked off market after market of AA's (S. America, transcons). AA's answer... a couple of tired Super 80 flights from protected LGA to Florida.

[post="269010"][/post]​

AA is still the market leader in transcons. They are also the largest airline to S. America. I am not sure what you believe DAL cherry picked. But there is no comparison an any level between AA and DAL. Given the cash crunch at Delta they will likley dimantle S. America like they did the Asia service.

For AA being the tired old thing you sure give alot of defensive lip service against us.

Finally, corporate welfare would be if Amex gave the money to Delta. Delta is paying interest for it - to the tune of about $750 million this year. Being in debt is a big drag but some companies consider it more responsible and better business sense to pay their bills and plan for the future rather than dump their obligations in bankruptcy.

[post="269010"][/post]​

Agreed, but everyone is waiting to see if Delta really can pay or if the cash crunch runs them out of business.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Mikey,
this is getting so regular we really should settle in for a cup of tea and work this little disagreement out. But then all these kind people would not be privy to our conversation which they obviously are enjoying.

Kind people,
I am so grateful that you have devoted such a significant part of your day to listening to my debate w/ the good Mikey and a few of his close personal friends. Please know that I for one am so honored to have gained your attention. I'll use the privilege wisely.

Mikey,
back to you. I've never once said I didn't think AA was a fine airline and had every likelihood of surviving. I couldn't have lived in Texas for long without flying AA a time or two and I have. AA has one of the shrewdist management teams in the industry. You might remember how shrewd they were just two - or has it been three years - ago when they the bull (that's you and your fellow union folks) by the horn and extracted huge concessions. You might remember that there was alot o heat coming from AA corporate offices and AA got what it wanted. You should be flattered that DL is using some of the same tactics today. DL's management is just a shrewd today as ever - they just got one idiot in there for a very critical period but he's been pushed overboard and the ship is not in danger of sinking. You may also recall that I have long predicted that the surviving three airlines will be AA, DL, and NW.

mistified,
I pity you if you think that having convictions and standing up for a point or two makes one incapable of being objective. The world doesn't need spineless people who are unwilling to take a stand. It needs people who will search out the truth and stand up for it. Just this week, we saw tens of thousands of people lose billions in pension benefits and they have offered nary a wimper. Pitiful. If you can't believe in yourself (and what is more to believe in than your own paycheck), then why exist.
Take a stand, believe in yourself, argue for the truth as you know it, take risks but by all means live life to the fullest.

 

[FA Mikey]

Mikey,
back to you. I've never once said I didn't think AA was a fine airline and had every likelihood of surviving. I couldn't have lived in Texas for long without flying AA a time or two and I have. AA has one of the shrewdist management teams in the industry. You might remember how shrewd they were just two - or has it been three years - ago when they the bull (that's you and your fellow union folks) by the horn and extracted huge concessions. You might remember that there was alot o heat coming from AA corporate offices and AA got what it wanted. You should be flattered that DL is using some of the same tactics today. DL's management is just a shrewd today as ever - they just got one idiot in there for a very critical period but he's been pushed overboard and the ship is not in danger of sinking. You may also recall that I have long predicted that the surviving three airlines will be AA, DL, and NW.

[post="269031"][/post]​

I agree AA is a fine airline. Very well run in many aspects and very lacking in others. I also agree the have a very capable management team that has beat me out of, more than my fair share. AA does most often get what it wants.

I am sorry, I just dont see Delta moving fast enough to make a difference. They seem to spend all there time with press releases and filings about how close they are to the edge. Its not about getting more from the employees. Non union just take what you please. We havent heard of them working the leasing companies or vendors. What are they doing to make Delta a survivor, rather than a bottom feeding BK carrier?

PS I am sure you would look just fine in that cape and those tights.

 

[9epnsrip]

Kind people,
I am so grateful that you have devoted such a significant part of your day to listening to my debate w/ the good Mikey and a few of his close personal friends. Please know that I for one am so honored to have gained your attention. I'll use the privilege wisely.

Great Debate, Clear insight, That Why I signed on.. Thanks for "Keeping it Real"

 

[Bob Owens]

Its not about getting more from the employees. Non union just take what you please. We havent heard of them working the leasing companies or vendors. What are they doing to make Delta a survivor, rather than a bottom feeding BK carrier?

[post="269035"][/post]​

If you recall the "straight to chapter 7" line was put out by AAs "docile" unions back in 2003. There Jim Little of the TWU was telling members and the press that if they didnt ratify the agreement the company might just go straight into C-7. Here the companys ruse is targeted mainly at one group -the Pilots.

DAL is not going to go C-7, its all hype to get the pilots to give more concessions and to make it easier to take more from the rest of the non-union workforce without driving them into unions.

 

[luv2fly]

Boy,

You really are a piece of work. I bet you just gloat at the plight of all of the "real" airline employees". I worked with people like you when I was at People Express, folks who couldn't wait to see pain inflicted on others...that my friend is very bad Karma.

I would never wish bad on Southwest folks for deystroying the industry as we all knew it, but the likes of you is what turns people against your airline killer.

You are sad example of a fellow airline employee...shame on you!

[post="269020"][/post]​

Where or where did I criticize the employees of U? Huh? I have long been a critic of their management team, and the way they run the airline. I really don't seperate employees into who they work for. Most of us are here because we like what we do for a living, and most want their hard work to be reflected by their employer. Do you think a DL employee would have taken any less pride in their job than if they had originally been hired by AA? (And that is not meant to be a slam on AA btw). Of course not.
FYI..., I work for a legacy, so you can keep your WN helped destroy the industry BS to yourself. Obviously yet another topic we disagree on. Obviously they know how to run an airline.

 

[mistified]

If you recall the "straight to chapter 7" line was put out by AAs "docile" unions back in 2003. There Jim Little of the TWU was telling members and the press that if they didnt ratify the agreement the company might just go straight into C-7. Here the companys ruse is targeted mainly at one group -the Pilots.

DAL is not going to go C-7, its all hype to get the pilots to give more concessions and to make it easier to take more from the rest of the non-union workforce without driving them into unions.

[post="269122"][/post]​

Bob I think you are right on the mark here. C-7 unlikely. But what about C-11?
I am not convinced that entering C-11 makes any airline more competitive. Just look at UA and US. I truely believe that DAL management will do all it can to avoid that. However sometimes there is no choice in the matter. I am beginning to get the feeling that is the case for DAL (no choice C-11 likely, C-7 unlikely).

mistified

 

[North by Northwest]

"I pity you if you think that having convictions and standing up for a point or two makes one incapable of being objective. The world doesn't need spineless people who are unwilling to take a stand. It needs people who will search out the truth and stand up for it. Just this week, we saw tens of thousands of people lose billions in pension benefits and they have offered nary a wimper. Pitiful. If you can't believe in yourself (and what is more to believe in than your own paycheck), then why exist.
Take a stand, believe in yourself, argue for the truth as you know it, take risks but by all means live life to the fullest. " THE GOSPEL!

 

[Fly]

Thanks Northwest....we are so very weak. Please, please show us weak people how to take a stand when it is YOUR turn. Maybe we can learn from watching YOU.