Could AA buy AS?

[WorldTraveler]

and again you don't know the difference between passengers carried and local O&D passengers and revenue.

when you figure out that difference, we can have a conversation.

you and too many other people don't understand the difference between a subway system and an airline.

it matters not one iota that CLT handles millions of passengers who have no interest whatsoever in N. Carolina but are just passing thru.

the strength of a carrier's presence in a city is not based on the number of passengers boarded that ORIGINATE OR TERMINATE at that city and the REVENUE they produce. PERIOD.

and it's funny (really sad) that you want to exclude regional carrier operations even though AA has more regional jets in its fleet than any other airline in the world.

If you think that any mainline job at AA is safe without all of these regional jets that pump traffic onto AA's mainline network, then you are even more clueless about the industry than even I thought you were.

 

[jcw]

then why have a hub in MSP or DTW if there is so much O&D traffic just fly the point to point

It's sad how you can only see anything DL does as positive and everything else every other airline does is a losing strategy

Once again if DL was the #1 in everything as you say they are they wouldnt be losing market cap advantage etc

 

[WorldTraveler]

because DL uses hubs just like AA and UA does - to increase the amount of local traffic it can carry by adding connecting traffic to the mix.

but DL carries more LOCAL revenue from DTW and MSP than AA carries from either ORD or MIA and a big reason is because DL gets much higher average fares from DTW and MSP compared to ORD which are the most comparable hub comparisons that can be made between two US airlines.

the notion that having hubs in big cities because they have lots of traffic is negated by the reality that DL gets higher average fares from its hubs in medium sized cities and a big part of that is because there is less competition and DL controls a higher percentage of the local market.

As long as AA people want to believe that AA is better off having hubs in big cities, they will never understand the true economics that favor DL's hubs in medium sized cities which generate more revenue than AA"s comparable hubs.

and the principle is the same for AS and SEA-- they enjoyed higher than average fares on the west coast because they had little competition.

now that DL is growing their presence in SEA, AS' margins will go down solely because AS' strategy of continuing to throw more capacity in the market will only hurt AS itself.

 

[eolesen]

then why have a hub in MSP or DTW if there is so much O&D traffic just fly the point to point

That's a point some people don't want to admit -- DL has more small market hubs than AA, WN and UA.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

finally, DL's SEA to Asia hub has about as many seats as DTW to Asia which makes DL's two TPAC hubs right under SFO as the top US carrier gateways from the US behind UA at SFO.


if that in your mind translates into "DL rules the world" then we'll let you believe it but I didn't say it.

 
 
Wow! What a great stat!
It takes 2 amazing DL hubs to not quite equal 1 UA hub TPAC ops.
And with all that amazing DL growth at SEA, they can't even half-fill a B767 on a seasonal basis to HND (maybe it should just be a charter flight).
DL does indeed rule the world!

 
 
 

given predictions that Brazil, AA's largest market in Latin America could be in a recession for 2 years and maybe much longer, the huge profits that have fueled AA's profitability could be gone for a while. Argentina and Venezuela will be equally challenging markets.
 

 
I love the double standards here.
Japan, DLs largest TPAC market has been in economic stagnation for roughly a decade, yet DL managed to survive.  In Brazil, AA will parish after a 2 year recession.
France, Italy and many Eurozone countries, where we have been told how great DL is, have been in recession or stagnation since 2008,yet DL manages to survive.  In Brazil, AA will parish after a 2 year recession.
 
 

no, my friend, the evidence overwhelming says that AA and US have done a very poor job of defending its hubs against WN whether it was when Parker was in charge or not. and AA/US has also lost the local markets in those former hubs, almost entirely to WN.

 
Again, World Fraudster will not tell us how mighty DL defended JFK against B6 or ATL against FL/WN because those facts don't fit a certain narrative.
 

 AA/US' track record in a half dozen hubs easily shows that AA/US has not done a very good job of defending its hubs over the decades while DL has done a much better job regardless of the overall economic situation of the industry or WN's benefits.

 
Still no mention whatsoever of the the bang-up job DL did of defending JFK against B6 or no mention whatsoever of how DL allowed FL to flourish in ATL.
 
 

Or, it could be that with the possible exception of ATL, DL has hubs in cities that no one else, particularly WN, cares about. Or, they are as firmly established in a city as they wish to be. Knock yourself out at SEA building up a new hub. We are happy with the jam-packed flights we already have there.

 
B6 and FL have done a great job of hubbing in DL hubs, but World Fraudster leaves those pesky facts out of his DL rules the world fairy tales.

 

[WorldTraveler]

That's a point some people don't want to admit -- DL has more small market hubs than AA, WN and UA.

 
they're medium market hubs.

and again you like most of the AA ilk aren't smart enough to realize that being the king of a medium sized lake is better than being the 3rd prince in an ocean full of wanna be kings.

once again, every one of DL's top 4 hubs generates more local revenue than the comparable AA/US hub... so with all of your talk about DL's huge amount of connecting traffic, DL carries more revenue thru its hubs than AA does.

and lest you get cocky about AA's share in those big market hubs, you would do well to remember that DL is the number one passenger carrier in the NYC local market and carries more local Asia revenue and pax from LAX. and AA is actually number TWO at ORD and even on a combined basis, UA carries more local revenue and pax from LAX than AA does.

so, AA is number one in terms of passengers it pushes thru LAX but isn't number one at any of the biggest 3 markets in the US in terms of local revenue or passengers.

so, congratulations again for having hubs in the top markets of the country where you have to share it with everyone else and where DL and UA actually get the passengers that matter most in those cities.


 

Wow! What a great stat!
It takes 2 amazing DL hubs to not quite equal 1 UA hub TPAC ops.
And with all that amazing DL growth at SEA, they can't even half-fill a B767 on a seasonal basis to HND (maybe it should just be a charter flight).
DL does indeed rule the world!

 
 
 
 
I love the double standards here.
Japan, DLs largest TPAC market has been in economic stagnation for roughly a decade, yet DL managed to survive.  In Brazil, AA will parish after a 2 year recession.
France, Italy and many Eurozone countries, where we have been told how great DL is, have been in recession or stagnation since 2008,yet DL manages to survive.  In Brazil, AA will parish after a 2 year recession.
 
 
 
Again, World Fraudster will not tell us how mighty DL defended JFK against B6 or ATL against FL/WN because those facts don't fit a certain narrative.
 
 
Still no mention whatsoever of the the bang-up job DL did of defending JFK against B6 or no mention whatsoever of how DL allowed FL to flourish in ATL.
 
 
 
B6 and FL have done a great job of hubbing in DL hubs, but World Fraudster leaves those pesky facts out of his DL rules the world fairy tales.

no, I have left nothing out.

in fact, DL's share of the JFK domestic market (I excluded int'l outside of N. America since B6 doesn't serve it from JFK) went up for DL while it went down by 5 points for B6 over the past 5 years. and DL's average fare in the JFK domestic market went up at nearly twice the rate

and in ATL, WN/FL's combined share went down while DL's went up... and DL has more than 60% share of the ATL market, something AA doesn't have in DFW/DAL on a combined basis and AA's share will be going down even more as WN's increases.

so, no, once again, you get even the basic facts of the industry wrong... it's not hard you make incorrect assumptions when you have incorrect facts.

and, UA bought PA's Pacific operations in 1985; DL bought NW in 2008 and started restructuring the network from being Japan centric to US hub focused just a few years ago.

and as much as you and commavia want to pretend otherwise, DL's NRT hub still is larger in terms of flights and seats than UA's TPAC hub.

and, no, UA isn't folding up in Latin America - but there will be sizable a chunk of AA's revenue that is going poof for a few years while several key Latin economies restructure - as has been the case for a number of years.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Circling the wagons.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm merely addressing the flawed assumptions, facts (or lack thereof), and (il)logic that you and others bring to the conversation.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

they're medium market hubs.

...... you like most of the AA ilk aren't smart enough to realize that being the king of a medium sized lake is better

 
This fact that DL is an afterthought in many of the largest markets and the spin that you wrote looks like omething a fankid of an airline that is a niche player in the largest markets would do.
 

once again, every one of DL's top 4 hubs generates more local revenue than the comparable AA/US hub... so with all of your talk about DL's huge amount of connecting traffic, DL carries more revenue thru its hubs than AA does.

 
And yet AA made a larger profit.  Go figure
 
 

in fact, DL's share of the JFK domestic market (I excluded int'l outside of N. America since B6 doesn't serve it from JFK) went up for DL while it went down by 5 points for B6 over the past 5 years. and DL's average fare in the JFK domestic market went up at nearly twice the rate

 
Care to elaborate on how B6 managed to grow to the size it did (i.e. what was mighty DL doing 6 or more years ago)?
Oh, that doesn't fit your narrative, got it.
 
 

and in ATL, WN/FL's combined share went down while DL's went up... and DL has more than 60% share of the ATL market, something AA doesn't have in DFW/DAL on a combined basis and AA's share will be going down even more as WN's increases.

 
Yeah, and again, what did mighty DL do before that to prevent FL/WN from growing?
Oh, that fact doesn't fit your narrative either.
So sad.
 
 

and, UA bought PA's Pacific operations in 1985; DL bought NW in 2008 and started restructuring the network from being Japan centric to US hub focused just a few years ago.

 
Oh, so now instead of going back just 5 years, were going to use a different standard and go back 20 years. 
So much spin.

 

I'm merely addressing the flawed assumptions, facts, and (il)logic that you and others bring to the conversation.

You should take the log out of your own eye first, preacher boy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

uh, DL is the largest airline in the NYC market based on passenger boardings.

an afterthought in the world's largest market?

that would be AA, not DL.

and again your narrative is more than a little tarnished by failing to admit the reality that DL has managed to beat back B6 and FL.

B6 grew to the size it did because of a gift of slots at JFK.

and all of the markets that AA gave up after B6 entered them.

sure, go back 20 years... and you would see AA the number carrier in NYC and Eastern alongside DL in ATL.

DL's share in BOTH ATL and NYC is stronger than it was 20 years ago.

AA? not so much.

 

[Kev3188]

What does any of this DL wagon circling have to do w/ a possible AA/AS marriage?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

uh, DL is the largest airline in the NYC market based on passenger boardings.


and again your narrative is more than a little tarnished by failing to admit the reality that DL has managed to beat back B6 and FL.

B6 grew to the size it did because of a gift of slots at JFK.

 
Really, DL is bigger than UA?
Are you sure about that, preacher boy?
 
Oh, so now you admit that B6 grew and that mighty DL could do nothing?
That's quite the spin from DL crushes all LCCs like no other - but I guess B6 and FL would be the evidence ..... oh snap, those 2 little facts ruin such a good DL rules the world fairy tale.
 
Caught up in your own lies so early in the morning.
How many hail Mary's are you gonna have to say today?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

What does any of this DL wagon circling have to do w/ a possible AA/AS marriage?

In the real world, absolutely nothing.
But in some people's world everything revolves around DL, so every single thread/topic must be turned into a "yeah that's cool but DL is better" discussion.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, DOT statistics show that DL boards more LOCAL NYC passengers than UA.

of course because so many of you don't know the difference between local passengers and revenue and simply airport boardings, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between who is actually larger.

and what you can't accept, cheapflyer, is that B6' growth was orchestrated by the government who gave B6 slots to allow low fare competition into NYC.

and statistics OVERWHELMINGLY show that B6' growth has come far more at AA's expense than any other carrier.

but in your attempts to deflect from that reality, you would rather try to focus on DL.

once again, AA was the largest carrier at both LGA and JFK 10 years ago. Now the title is DL's.

AA wanted to have slots eliminated because AA wasn't interested in using them while US said that LGA couldn't be a profitable hub.

AA and US both simply didn't know how to use the assets in the world's largest air travel market and DL did.

DL's market has grown while AA's has shrunk.

good morning, Kev.

the reason is that AA fans want to talk about an AA/AS merger is because they once again cannot accept that AA has blown one strategy after another to be a major carrier in major markets and is now faced with the reality that there are no more mergers left for the big 4 and a merger with AS still wouldn't solve the problem that AA is the 3rd largest carrier to Asia, from the west coast to Asia, and is not the largest carrier in the LAX local market.

and given that DL has already grown its presence at SEA and an AA-AS merger even if were allowed by regulators would only result in cuts to AS' system because of AA's higher costs, AA can't fix the strategic mess it has created for itself on the west coast including to Asia.

so talking about what has happened on the east coast including in NYC is highly relevant to understanding why AA is in the position they are in on the west coast.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

and statistics OVERWHELMINGLY show that B6' growth has come far more at AA's expense than any other carrier.
 

 
Oh, so now you want the topic to be  B6 growth at AA expense?  What happened to DL crushes all LCCs?  Why don't you want to discuss that falsehood any longer?  Could it be because you can't fabricate any data to support your made-up claims (i.e. lies), World Fraudster?