combined f/a contract

[wmjb2002]

Let's remember that on the East, the pay scale tops out @ 14 years. I haven't gotten a raise (other than the .30 this Jan) in years! Gas goes up, my insurance goes up, my electric bill goes up, and I am working on a wage that was paid to me years ago - the same amount now! We need to raise the cap and pay for all F/A's. Think immediate changes like RSV contract changes, but, think future changes too! Like retirement, better wages, better everything. East - get out and vote for your new union officials to carry you through the next several important years!

Everyone realizes that no one has received a raise, and also have had pay cuts. That is NOT what this is about. The point made was that junior flight attendants qualify for food stamps. Is that a livable wage? Their gas has gone up too as well as their insurance and electric bills, just like yours. Everyone wants future changes in the contract and that all f/a's receive pay raises for time spent with a company. But this issue is that junior flight attendants do not make enough money to live on and thus they qualify for food stamps. Let me put it another way, if AFA and the Company proposed that they would bring up the bottom (only) of the payscale just a tweak so no US AIR flight attendant would qualify for food stamps, would you support it?

Should AFA and the company work to increase the pay for junior flight attendants? Those flight attendants that qualify for food stamps? Agree or Disagree?

 

[flytchick]

I agree totally. I have to tell you prior to this merger (before we had even heard about it) - the top 3 things most AWA f/a's wanted in our new contract was - more pay, trip split and completely revised reserve section. Most of us at that time were happy with our vacation policy, insurance, and overall contract. We just wanted to "tweak" it a bit to make it better. But the one thing that was important to even the most senior f/a was a better reserve section. Even though I am senior - I work with these reserves and I do not know how they do it. It is sad to go on an overnight and they can't afford to go to the bar or have a meal because of their money situation. There are many a time where our crew has taken the reserve to dinner and all chipped in and paid simply because we knew this may be the only real meal he/she would eat for the next days on reserve. It is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age that a reserve is on food stamps. This has GOT TO CHANGE!!!

 

[Chicken or Beef??]

Are the job qualifications/expectations more of a senior flight attandant than that of a junior flight attendant?

They treat blockholders like gold and reserves like crap. Reserves are expected to be able to get to the airport in 90 minutes if they are quick called, even if there is a storm brewing or if there is snow or ice. Reserves are expected to sit in base for most of the month (except for 11 days when they are off, which is actually a lot less if you commute). Reserves are expected to live off the minimum guarantee and fly on their off days if they want extra cash. Reserves don't know when to eat and sleep and go to the store for fear they will be called for a trip and won't make it to the airport in time or won't be able to hear the phone ring. If a reserve can't commute into base for a trip or if he/she is going on duty, then the reserve is in deep sh*t. If a block holder can't make it in for a trip, it is OK. They are excused because they are a beloved blockholder. We get the crap trips that no one else wants.





<_<
Did you somehow believe that more senior flight attendants were born into a block/line? Flight Attendants at and around my seniority served reserve for 15 years or more. I was based in DCA and responsible for three airports with a report obligation of one hour from contact. I commuted and knew that if I wanted to make ends meet I would have to give up my days off. Granted, our reserve system was seniority based. But we were never permitted to commute on duty.
Yes, scheduling treats block holders better and they treat pilots better than us. Always been that way!
The airline industry is seniority based and if it works properly regardless of block holder or reserve status the better trips should always go to the senior flight attendant. When you become a block holder don't expect that to change.
I do feel bad that the pay rates are low and the conditions poor. I wouldn't tell you to get out if you don't like it but, you are paid a guarantee to sit on reserve. That's the career path you chose. Personally, I wouldn't want to go back on reserve for anything. But, if that happens that will be a personal choice.

 

[wmjb2002]

Did you somehow believe that more senior flight attendants were born into a block/line? Flight Attendants at and around my seniority served reserve for 15 years or more. I was based in DCA and responsible for three airports with a report obligation of one hour from contact. I commuted and knew that if I wanted to make ends meet I would have to give up my days off. Granted, our reserve system was seniority based. But we were never permitted to commute on duty.
Yes, scheduling treats block holders better and they treat pilots better than us. Always been that way!
The airline industry is seniority based and if it works properly regardless of block holder or reserve status the better trips should always go to the senior flight attendant. When you become a block holder don't expect that to change.
I do feel bad that the pay rates are low and the conditions poor. I wouldn't tell you to get out if you don't like it but, you are paid a guarantee to sit on reserve. That's the career path you chose. Personally, I wouldn't want to go back on reserve for anything. But, if that happens that will be a personal choice.

You are missing the point. I would think everyone would agree that a more senior flight attendant should be rewarded for their time with the company. Of course, absolutely! Raises are given as you move up the scale. You deserve it. Trips, vacations, days off awarded by seniority...yes absolutely!
And it is equally sad that any flight attendant may have had to live on food stamps for the first 5 or 6 or 15 years of their flight attendant life. The question is: Do you think we should work to change this situation? I think your answer of "well we did, now it's your turn or it's the career path you chose, that's the way it is" is a poor one. How can we better the profession if we think like that!

Doug said at a recent video 'crew news' (2-14-07 Flight Attendants) that it was very difficult to attract good flight attendants at the very low pay offered to a new flight attendant. He said that the entry-level pay was “extremely lowâ€￾ lower than management would have it, but it was “not the way the AFA scale worksâ€￾ That it is how AFA adjusts the pay scale. What is that about?! He also said it is a very hard pitch for the company when hiring and it’s a hard sell when hiring but they relay to the candidate that your ridiculous low pay would not be forever and you would make a decent wage in time to come. So if Doug is willing to change the bottom of the pay scale, wouldn't AFA jump on that and want to make any improvement for their members?

Can anyone explain what Doug is referring to when he says it's the 'system by which AFA operates' and ‘just the way the process works? I would think any part of a contract is negotiable. There are lots of ways to make this work, if you require a person to be 'on call' for 80 hours for 20 hours of pay, then maybe a higher per diem. Something! New flight attendants are making $17,000 a year. I guess you can live on that if you live with 10 people and get food stamps. I just thought this profession should seek higher expectations. I’ll just reiterate my point that the bottom end of the pay scale is TOO low. And if flight attendants who worked 15 years ago were being paid too little, it would not be right then either.

 

[Itestwell]

Doug said at a recent video 'crew news' (2-14-07 Flight Attendants) that it was very difficult to attract good flight attendants at the very low pay offered to a new flight attendant. He said that the entry-level pay was “extremely lowâ€￾ lower than management would have it, but it was “not the way the AFA scale worksâ€￾ That it is how AFA adjusts the pay scale. What is that about?! He also said it is a very hard pitch for the company when hiring and it’s a hard sell when hiring but they relay to the candidate that your ridiculous low pay would not be forever and you would make a decent wage in time to come. So if Doug is willing to change the bottom of the pay scale, wouldn't AFA jump on that and want to make any improvement for their members?

Can anyone explain what Doug is referring to when he says it's the 'system by which AFA operates' and ‘just the way the process works? I would think any part of a contract is negotiable. There are lots of ways to make this work, if you require a person to be 'on call' for 80 hours for 20 hours of pay, then maybe a higher per diem. Something! New flight attendants are making $17,000 a year. I guess you can live on that if you live with 10 people and get food stamps. I just thought this profession should seek higher expectations. I’ll just reiterate my point that the bottom end of the pay scale is TOO low. And if flight attendants who worked 15 years ago were being paid too little, it would not be right then either.

I can explain it. In that session, DP was essentially blaming AFA for awarding senior FA's with a higher pay, and starting FA's with horrid pay. He has a point there. BUT, do not misunderstand him here. He does *NOT* want to just raise the pay of new hires; he wants new higher pay scales to come from the "high" rates that senior FA's make (which are no longer high, or sustainable, or liveable...) In other words, he just wants to even out the scales more, maintaing cost neutrality in this area.

It is important to remember that DP and the rest of upper mgmt feel that the contracts already provide wage and benefit scales that attract "the best" people, and they see no reason for raises. To be factual, according to DP, if we took the "best" from each contract in each section, that would indeed require more concessions at the negotiating table. Outraged yet?

So, basically what he is doing is spinning with regards to that question on 2/14/07. He indirectly blames the AFA, and why not? It's not the company's fault, right? I agree that new hires need a large increase in their base pay, but I do NOT agree that it should come from those at top of scale, as the top of scale people are already the lowest in the industry as well. DP likes to make it sound like we are stupid for staying, essentially, because he is able to retain the "best in the business" with these substandard, concessionary pay wages we are currently locked into. What he doesn't understand is that it is more than that. What he doesn't get is that we are ready to fight him on this, and we are prepared for it to be long and nasty.

AFA negotiators, please do not back down off of one single item. FA's realize we are in the fight of our life, and are prepared to act accordingly.

 

[SKY HIGH]

Doug said at a recent video 'crew news' (2-14-07 Flight Attendants) that it was very difficult to attract good flight attendants at the very low pay offered to a new flight attendant. He said that the entry-level pay was “extremely lowâ€￾ lower than management would have it, but it was “not the way the AFA scale worksâ€￾ That it is how AFA adjusts the pay scale. What is that about?

sky high states: I wonder if management would also like to "CHANGE" the "TOP-OUT PAY" as well. Hmmmmm. Since they're SO CONCERNED.
Imagine getting to your 14th year in pay and that's it. DONE. Live on that throughout the rest of your career, opps, no, there were concessions and bankruptcies added to that. In fact, pay in the 1980's was better.

And, who wanted to build "corporate culture" at this airline?

only stating opinions.

 

[2clippedwings]

I am outraged that a new hire West F/A makes the same starting wage that I made almost 30 years ago.
I am outraged that any employee at this profitable company qualifies for food stamps.
I am outraged that most of my co-workers have part time jobs to supplement their income. Bases are in large cities and known for their high cost of living. At what point in my life may I not have to live with 9 other people to pay the rent?
I am outraged that our reserve system is in such obvious need of overhaul. That flight attendants accept that flying on their only days off is acceptable and normal.
I am outraged at the attitude of some of my senior co-workers that "we paid our dues, now you pay yours". Well yes, seniority has its privileges but we have a broken system that allows for abuse and horrible quality of life. Just because today you may not be affected by it doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware and willing to enable change. So many believe the world revolves only around them and can't be bothered with those pesky reserve issues.
I am outraged by Dougie's comments that our wages attract and keep the best. Wrong. We're just gathering forces to extract what the best are deserving of.
No, I won't "just quit". I like what I do. I just want to be able to make a living wage at my single job as a flight attendant. Is that too much to ask?

 

[EMBFA]

I am outraged that a new hire West F/A makes the same starting wage that I made almost 30 years ago.
I am outraged that any employee at this profitable company qualifies for food stamps.
I am outraged that most of my co-workers have part time jobs to supplement their income. Bases are in large cities and known for their high cost of living. At what point in my life may I not have to live with 9 other people to pay the rent?
I am outraged that our reserve system is in such obvious need of overhaul. That flight attendants accept that flying on their only days off is acceptable and normal.
I am outraged at the attitude of some of my senior co-workers that "we paid our dues, now you pay yours". Well yes, seniority has its privileges but we have a broken system that allows for abuse and horrible quality of life. Just because today you may not be affected by it doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware and willing to enable change. So many believe the world revolves only around them and can't be bothered with those pesky reserve issues.
I am outraged by Dougie's comments that our wages attract and keep the best. Wrong. We're just gathering forces to extract what the best are deserving of.
No, I won't "just quit". I like what I do. I just want to be able to make a living wage at my single job as a flight attendant. Is that too much to ask?

Couldn't have said it better myself!

The difference between them "paying thier dues" and what we have now is that there was movement. There is none at US East and will not be. No one comes, no one goes, the system is broken.

An already senior workforce votes in concessionary agreements that maintain some for the very senior, and punish the junior by either pushing them into poverty or out of a job completely... mostly the latter.

The very nature of US Airways core business and route structure is small narrowbody aircraft on short haul regional routes... which can now be flown by anyone else in our colors as per union agreements, making the need for mainline F/As half what it used to be. Furthermore, pensions are gone, and the ill-prepared will have to work until death, many simply don't have the job skills for anything else, or can't imagine having to work at a real job where you actually work every day, are held accountable by a boss, and don't decide when, where, and how little you'd like to come to work. So who's left? The senior half of the list, with the lower end still being punished well past thier time of "paying dues".

We also have a ridicoulous reserve/blockholder ratio due to our ridicuolus contract that is unlike any other airlines. Half the damm airine is on reserve so the seniors can have thier bid sheet etc, which sorry ladies, no one else has the flexibility you do. "Well you want to keep it for when you get there" No, I don't... first of all, due to the stagnation you have allowed and even forced, I will never get there.And I would never support anything that has a 20 year employee sitting around on reserve waiting for scraps. If we had the staffing model/contracts any of the other majors have, there would be far less reserves as open time is used to build lines, not for an EBAY for existing lineholders.

Finally this reserve system is breaking the contract. It was supposed to snap back to the old seniority based system within 90 days if preferential bidding didn't happen. It hasn't.

The current reserve system was also illegal under labor laws until recently and still may be. These people were on duty for 24 hours a day for up to 14 days before the FAA stepped in a few months ago. You know what that is? SLAVERY. INDENTURED SERVITUDE. Even now that the company has to comply with the 24/7 rule (having had to be forced to) reserves still have to try and work all off days- for those of you out of the industry, to make that clear that means WORK EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE MONTH just to clear $2000 if you are the most junior (which is a seven year employee... theres that stagnation again).

You know what? This management is not stupid. They are not going to allow the current mess of a set-up to remain. The contract will be more similar to West's or to other airlines. Less flexibility, more blockholders, no working 6 days a month and getting full benefits... no more of it being a fantastic part time, flexible job for the select few, and inhuman slavery for thousands of others to keep the lifestyle intact for the seniors.

Seniority is the fairest way to do things, absolutely... but this system is severely broken and has parts of the workforce literally not making it- literally a part of the working poor and depending on the government and tax payers to support them. Does anyone remember the two reserve flight attendants that nearly froze to death sleeping in a car in the DCA parking lot? They were reserves during "MidAtlantic" they had been kicked out of the crew room and were on call. One hadn't eaten anything but pretzels in days and ended up in the hospital. We all know there are at least ten F/As that live in the PHL airport. Shame on our "low prices at any cost" culture that does this to American jobs. Shame on the company, and shame on all of us. I love 2clippedwings post... she is outraged and rightfully so. Where is the outrage from everyone else? Where is the action?

NO OTHER AIRLINE IN THE WORLD HAS THIS BROKEN SYSTEM.

If this workforce and union is smart, they better start uniting now- Eat and West, reserve and blockholder, junior and senior, different bases etc... because people are getting restless and the opposite of the past will happen. the new, very junior workforce will forsake the interests of the senior people to improve thier lot as far as pay, reserve etc goes. Keep in mind that the combined seniority list looks ALOT different than the current US Airways one... and keep in mind that the company is a much bigger fan of the junior people and new hires than it is
of seniors. People better start mending fences and start working toward common goals for all, and stop only protecting thier own interests. Thats the thing about voting- its the only place every flight attendant is equal.

Anyway, unpopular or not, thats what I have to say about it.

 

[N109UW]

Couldn't have said it better myself!


Finally this reserve system is breaking the contract. It was supposed to snap back to the old seniority based system within 90 days if preferential bidding didn't happen. It hasn't.

Hate to break the news to you, but there was never a snapback clause associated with Pref. Bid and LTO. Trust me, I have brought that up the M Flores, A. Crawley and G. Talley many times. I actually got tired of the conversations. They both were sold to us with a implementation date of "no later than June 2004". Sure they spoke of them as though they were tied together, but they were not. I for one, never realized that something we had negotiated and agreed upon, with the company, would not be put in place. We have our union to blame for that. They let the company off the hook. No accountability from either the company or AFA. Things will be different this time. I await the committee come to my base and trying to sell us on the next contract. S**t is going to hit the fan. I promise you that.

 

[EMBFA]

Hate to break the news to you, but there was never a snapback clause associated with Pref. Bid and LTO. Trust me, I have brought that up the M Flores, A. Crawley and G. Talley many times. I actually got tired of the conversations. They both were sold to us with a implementation date of "no later than June 2004". Sure they spoke of them as though they were tied together, but they were not. I for one, never realized that something we had negotiated and agreed upon, with the company, would not be put in place. We have our union to blame for that. They let the company off the hook. No accountability from either the company or AFA. Things will be different this time. I await the committee come to my base and trying to sell us on the next contract. S**t is going to hit the fan. I promise you that.

Thanks for the clarification... that was what we were all under the impression of. Still, the LTO system is apparently designed around pref bid (not quite sure how), not the current system.

The company claimed Pref Bid turned out to be "too expensive" to implement... well aren't they sitting on money now?

 

[SKY HIGH]

I am outraged at the attitude of some of my senior co-workers that "we paid our dues, now you pay yours". Well yes, seniority has its privileges but we have a broken system that allows for abuse and horrible quality of life.

sky high states: Wonderful post, but you should of left out the above statement. The attrition rate and/or growth is responsible for your seniority within a company. Thousands have left or went on voluntary furlough, but the company downsized at the same time. You shouldnt blame the senior F/A's for the lack of movement.
System is broken.......I keep hearing....ok, LET ME HEAR YOU FIX IT.


only stating opinions.

 

[N109UW]

Thanks for the clarification... that was what we were all under the impression of. Still, the LTO system is apparently designed around pref bid (not quite sure how), not the current system.

The company claimed Pref Bid turned out to be "too expensive" to implement... well aren't they sitting on money now?

What bothers me more is, didn't the company or the AFA look into the cost of implementing Pref. Bid? And that neither could agree on a vender, which didn't surprise me, as I get the feeling AFA didn't want Pref. Bid anyway. Also, that AFA just let the company forget about Pref. Bid, even though we neg. it into the contract. Additionally, there should have been a snapback clause involved, that way there would have been some pressure to put it in place. This all points to AFA not really wanting Pref. Bid. and sacrificing the rrsv f/a's for the sake of the BH's. Total disrespect. June 2004, what a freakin joke.

 

[EMBFA]

sky high states: Wonderful post, but you should of left out the above statement. The attrition rate and/or growth is responsible for your seniority within a company. Thousands have left or went on voluntary furlough, but the company downsized at the same time. You shouldnt blame the senior F/A's for the lack of movement.
System is broken.......I keep hearing....ok, LET ME HEAR YOU FIX IT.
only stating opinions.

Hmm, you don't think the fact that we have by far the most liberal scope clause in the industry (which was agreed to by the unions) has anything to do with the lack of growth? We are the only airline that basically allows full size narrowbody flying on property by others. Clue: new airplanes are arriving, growth is happening, flight attendants are being hired... its just not at mainline.

 

[2clippedwings]

sky high states: Wonderful post, but you should of left out the above statement. The attrition rate and/or growth is responsible for your seniority within a company. Thousands have left or went on voluntary furlough, but the company downsized at the same time. You shouldnt blame the senior F/A's for the lack of movement.
System is broken.......I keep hearing....ok, LET ME HEAR YOU FIX IT.
only stating opinions.

Look at "The Galley Show" for a prime example of what I am referring to. Post #387. Look at the pathetic turn-out in PHL on such a pivotal election.
I appreciate the more senior people taking voluntary furloughs and never blamed the senior F/A's for the lack of movement. I blame the company. No pensions? Guess those who had considered retiring can't now. Again, I blame the company.
We are all in this together. Different agendas but the same end result. Pay a livable wage and give us the flexibility that allows for quality of life.

 

[Travelpro72]

I personally feel that the union could have fought the company harder about the implementation of Pref. bidding. It just sort of fell by the wayside. Well isn't THAT just convenient?