CLT flight attendant flips out; attacks fellow crew and air marshals

[jimntx]

Now, that everyone has had an opportunity to be "cute" about this incident, let's try to get back to the real issues--namely, a/c and passenger safety.  I'll bet that as the case proceeds through the courts, it will turn out that the f/a is bipolar, and that she had not bee taking her medication.  She will promise to take her medication and the union will fight for her right to return to being a flight attendant which an arbitrator will agree to with the stipulation that she must take her medication.  And, we'll all stand around and sing Kumbayah.
 
Case closed.  Until the next time she decides to quit taking her medication.  There was a similar case at DFW several years ago.  If this had been a pilot, the minute a diagnosis of bipolar disorder was made, he would probably be permanently barred from piloting any commercial a/c for safety reasons.  Flight attendants can also cause safety issues for a/c and passengers--note in the complaint that the f/a in this case tried to open one of the doors while the a/c was underway.  However, the FAA has never had a problem with bipolar flight attendants.  All they have to do is promise to take their medication.
 
I have a dear and close friend who is bipolar.  He has shared with me that the "high" one gets from the manic phase of bipolar disorder can not be matched by any drug, and that it is a struggle each and every day to take his medication.   He says that there is always the thought of "well, just skipping today won't hurt."  Short of daily blood tests, there is no way to assure that a bipolar patient is taking their medication.  And, there are usually no behavioral warnings until something like this incident happens.

 

[Roadking5560]

Try being married to one,,,bipolar not a f/a.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Now, that everyone has had an opportunity to be "cute" about this incident, let's try to get back to the real issues--namely, a/c and passenger safety.  I'll bet that as the case proceeds through the courts, it will turn out that the f/a is bipolar, and that she had not bee taking her medication.  She will promise to take her medication and the union will fight for her right to return to being a flight attendant which an arbitrator will agree to with the stipulation that she must take her medication.  And, we'll all stand around and sing Kumbayah.
 
Case closed.  Until the next time she decides to quit taking her medication.  There was a similar case at DFW several years ago.  If this had been a pilot, the minute a diagnosis of bipolar disorder was made, he would probably be permanently barred from piloting any commercial a/c for safety reasons.  Flight attendants can also cause safety issues for a/c and passengers--note in the complaint that the f/a in this case tried to open one of the doors while the a/c was underway.  However, the FAA has never had a problem with bipolar flight attendants.  All they have to do is promise to take their medication.
 
I have a dear and close friend who is bipolar.  He has shared with me that the "high" one gets from the manic phase of bipolar disorder can not be matched by any drug, and that it is a struggle each and every day to take his medication.   He says that there is always the thought of "well, just skipping today won't hurt."  Short of daily blood tests, there is no way to assure that a bipolar patient is taking their medication.  And, there are usually no behavioral warnings until something like this incident happens.

 
Flight attendants have understandably and correctly fought to be recognized as primarily safety staff on the airplane and not just cocktail-slingers.  I wholeheartedly agree with that.  Over the years the perception has changed in that direction.  The biggest step, I think, was the FAA beginning to issue licenses to flight attendants.  (That is a double-edged sword, though, and another discussion.)
 
The FAA needs to step in and issue medical qualifications for flight attendants just as they do for the pilots.  I am not saying that the standards need to be as stringent, but there should be disqualifying medical conditions and bipolar disorder should be one of them since there is no way to effectively monitor the therapy on a daily basis.  That's why pilots diagnosed as such are permanently grounded.  
 
Since you mentioned that this flight attendant tried to open the door in flight, let me say that it is 100% impossible to open a properly closed door of a pressurized airliner.  Once the airplane is airborne, the pressurization takes place fairly quickly.  Within the first minute or two, the cabin is already at 2 psi pressure (it will eventually get to +/- 8 psi in cruise).  Take the size of even the smaller overwing window exits on narrow-body airplanes...about 15 inches by 24 inches.  That gives an area of 360 square inches.  Multiply that by 2 psi of air pressure, and you would need to pull that overwing exit with 720 pounds of force to open it after about a minute or two of flight.  At cruise, that door is being held closed by more than one ton of force.  It's not opening.  Period.  The larger doors on the airplane in question in cruise with a 8 psi pressurization are being held closed by several tons of air pressure.  The entire flight attendant cadre working together could not open it, let alone one flight attendant with medical issues.  Do they ever mention any of that in flight attendant training?

 

[Mach85ER]

If a FA is diagnosed as Bipolar, he/she should never fly again period. Find a desk job for the person.
 
I've never heard of FAA classifications as to which FA's are allowed in the cockpit inflight. As it stands now, every FA qualifies.
 
If the FAA doesn't lay down the law, then it's just another example of them being stuck in the past. This isn't the 1950's where nearly every FA is a single 120lb female in her early twenties in the cockpit with 3 male pilots, of which two may be former Marines with combat experience. Today, it might be a 120lb female Captain and a 200lb bipolar or 'roided' FA.
 
Do the math.

 

[jimntx]

 
Since you mentioned that this flight attendant tried to open the door in flight, let me say that it is 100% impossible to open a properly closed door of a pressurized airliner.  Once the airplane is airborne, the pressurization takes place fairly quickly.  Within the first minute or two, the cabin is already at 2 psi pressure (it will eventually get to +/- 8 psi in cruise).  Take the size of even the smaller overwing window exits on narrow-body airplanes...about 15 inches by 24 inches.  That gives an area of 360 square inches.  Multiply that by 2 psi of air pressure, and you would need to pull that overwing exit with 720 pounds of force to open it after about a minute or two of flight.  At cruise, that door is being held closed by more than one ton of force.  It's not opening.  Period.  The larger doors on the airplane in question in cruise with a 8 psi pressurization are being held closed by several tons of air pressure.  The entire flight attendant cadre working together could not open it, let alone one flight attendant with medical issues.  Do they ever mention any of that in flight attendant training?

Yes, I'm aware of all that.  I mentioned her attempt to open the door as just an example of what manic phase might push a person to try.  There are any number of other ways the f/a could endanger the a/c and/or the other souls on board.  As Mach85er pointed out, what if he/she got into the cockpit with a "weapon", such as a corkscrew wine opener, an ice mallet, or a pot of hot coffee for that matter.  The number of tools in the galley that could be used as weapons is one of the main reasons that the TSA regulations state that passenger can not hang around in the galleys.  I wholeheartedly agree with you that bipolar disorder should be a disqualifying condition.  There are any number of ground jobs she could do and still be connected to an airline.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Great discussion. I apologize for my flippant comment earlier.

I agree with the medical on airmen. Not many know that ATC, Dispatchers, A&P's, FAA Technicians (who work on and certify ILS, RADAR, Lighted NAVAIDS, COMM, etc.), Pilots, F/A's, Parachute Riggers, Flight Inspection Pilots (who verify ILS, Lighted NAVAIDS, Procedures, etc., are all working properly) are all certificated by the FAA.

I may have missed one or some.

But they all have a variety of medical and background check requirements. I am with Jim and others that pilots should not be the only ones that have the more strict requirements.

 

[700UW]

http://m.wcti12.com/news/american-airlines-flight-attendant-accused-of-two-federal-crimes/36815054

What surprises me is that she is 67 years old.

 

[jcw]

Why there are many FA's over 65 that are wonderful at what they do and love it

 

[Kev3188]

Great discussion. I apologize for my flippant comment earlier.

I agree with the medical on airmen. Not many know that ATC, Dispatchers, A&P's, FAA Technicians (who work on and certify ILS, RADAR, Lighted NAVAIDS, COMM, etc.), Pilots, F/A's, Parachute Riggers, Flight Inspection Pilots (who verify ILS, Lighted NAVAIDS, Procedures, etc., are all working properly) are all certificated by the FAA.

I may have missed one or some.

But they all have a variety of medical and background check requirements. I am with Jim and others that pilots should not be the only ones that have the more strict requirements.

I would like to see that extend to all ground employees as well, but I digress...

 

[AzFlyboy]

It was determined to be a reaction to new medications, and she was released in to the custody of her son.
It isn't over for her yet, but it is sad how many stories there were by the media when it happened, but only one when she was released.

 

[FWAAA]

It was determined to be a reaction to new medications, and she was released in to the custody of her son.

There has been no such "determination" that she suffered a reaction to new medication; her lawyer suggested that was the case. Huge difference between "was determined" and her lawyer's allegations.

It isn't over for her yet, but it is sad how many stories there were by the media when it happened, but only one when she was released.

Her release on bail before her trial isn't really "news" as most defendants in this country are free until their trial. Even the cop in Chicago accused of 1st degree murder bailed out after his arrest. Generally, only the poor stay in jail until their trial.

In any event, there are multiple stories about her release (not just one), including:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article47931865.html

http://myfox8.com/2015/12/04/flight-attendant-accused-of-attacks-on-nc-flight-ordered-to-mental-health-facility/

http://www.wbtv.com/story/30669061/erratic-flight-attendant-released-to-family-must-get-mental-evaluation

http://www.wbtv.com/story/30669061/erractic-flight-attendant-released-to-family-must-get-mental-evaluation

I stand by my assertions of very poor ground management at CLT; her fellow FAs asked that she be removed before the door even closed at CLT and failing that, the captain let the crew down by not ordering her off the aircraft. The air marshal detailed her pre-departure bizarre behaviours and statements in his affidavit.

I could forgive management and the captain if there had not been warning signs but management and the captain negligently placed all in potential peril by not removing her. Must really suck to be the other FAs on that flight. That's the hallmark of a crappy, dysfunctional organization, not a safety-minded world-class carrier.

Instead of allowing her to fly to FRA, someone should have called 911 and placed her in an ambulance in CLT before they closed the door. Lesson from this event? When flight attendants ask that one of their own be removed before flight for bizarre behaviour, someone needs to take them seriously.

 

[bob@las-AA]

There has been no such "determination" that she suffered a reaction to new medication; her lawyer suggested that was the case. Huge difference between "was determined" and her lawyer's allegations.


Her release on bail before her trial isn't really "news" as most defendants in this country are free until their trial. Even the cop in Chicago accused of 1st degree murder bailed out after his arrest. Generally, only the poor stay in jail until their trial.

In any event, there are multiple stories about her release (not just one), including:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article47931865.html

http://myfox8.com/2015/12/04/flight-attendant-accused-of-attacks-on-nc-flight-ordered-to-mental-health-facility/

http://www.wbtv.com/story/30669061/erratic-flight-attendant-released-to-family-must-get-mental-evaluation

http://www.wbtv.com/story/30669061/erractic-flight-attendant-released-to-family-must-get-mental-evaluation

I stand by my assertions of very poor ground management at CLT; her fellow FAs asked that she be removed before the door even closed at CLT and failing that, the captain let the crew down by not ordering her off the aircraft. The air marshal detailed her pre-departure bizarre behaviours and statements in his affidavit.

I could forgive management and the captain if there had not been warning signs but management and the captain negligently placed all in potential peril by not removing her. Must really suck to be the other FAs on that flight. That's the hallmark of a crappy, dysfunctional organization, not a safety-minded world-class carrier.

Instead of allowing her to fly to FRA, someone should have called 911 and placed her in an ambulance in CLT before they closed the door. Lesson from this event? When flight attendants ask that one of their own be removed before flight for bizarre behaviour, someone needs to take them seriously.

C'mon man, you're so full of yourself. And no flight takes off without it first receiving your blessing and approval?  

 

[ChockJockey]

Would the crew have been within their rights to refuse the trip if they thought one of their own number might pose a risk to the safety of the flight or her own health, or at the very least demand Ms. Snow be replaced?

 

[silverbird007]

Just non reved on a flight to MUC and back ( for the Christmas Markets) and spoke to one of the crew about the incident, she happened to know her personally she said that the fa has been having a hard time commuting and this probably contributed to the melt down! Either way the fa I spoke with spoke very highly of the fa in trouble. Anyway was pleasantly surprised by the nice service esp coming back from MUC! First time in the Envoy seats and was very nice! FAs were very pleasant and did an awesome service in BC! Hopefully the FA in trouble gets whatever help is needed.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

C'mon man, you're so full of yourself. And no flight takes off without it first receiving your blessing and approval?

The point of his post went so far over your head it's unreal.