Chip another question for ya.

[BoredToDeath]

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On 6/4/2003 7:27:49 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:

----------------​

Oldie,

No offense but like so many Mainline Dads, your treated like mushrooms(keeped in the dark and feed sh@t). Please read all of LOA 83 and the attachments that were made to it. Make sure you pay close attention to all the areas that concern the CRJ700, and you will realize that just about everything you just said was pure dung.

For your reading enjoyment most, if not all of LOA83, is posted on this thread as well. Unfortunately I do not have the ammendments handy.

And as far as you not going to MDA, well thats your choice. At least by not going you will open a spot for a WO pilot who will take their longevity and senoirity with them.

You know for whats its worth, when are the Mainline pilots going to realize that they are a WO too, and turn around and work with their WO conterparts instead of against us.

----------------
NO, you won''t take your seniority. Sorry to burst your bubble. You''d have to be hired by mainline first. You have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about, so you really should inform yourself. MDA is going to be operated as a division of mainline. You would have to apply, interview, resign your old job and accept one at MDA. I read this as STARTING AT THE BOTTOM, just as everyone else has to do. Most mainline guys don''t have anything against the WO guys, except for the guys like you, who feel that we owe you something. Sorry, it doesn''t work that way. Mainline guys ALL paid their dues somewhere else before getting here, and we''ll be damned before we give it up without a fight. There wasn''t a whole lot that ALPA could do while the company was in chapter 11, but it isn''t anymore, so don''t expect all the "rooling over" anymore.

----------------
Oldie,

You have a rude awakening coming. Like I said before please go back and read ALL agreements. All WO pilots have unrestricted flow to MDA. The minute that MDA cannot fill a class the position goes directly to a WO pilot. The only place we start at the bottom is US Airways not MidAtlantic. Seriously you don''t have a clue of what your talking about.

I''m not trying to start a fight with you so I don''t know why your getting your "depends" all bunched up for. When in any of my posts did I say that anyone owes me anything. Your like my wife, only hear what you want to hear.

You know what I''ll save you the trouble of looking for the info and I''ll put it here in a couple of hours.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Wrong. There''s no way you''ll take your full seniority while the mainline guys don''t. It ain''t gonna happen, so you''d better forget it. Wait and see what happens. It was mainline ALPA that pushed for the flowthru in the firstplace, and there''s NO WAY you''ll be senior to the mainline guys at MDA. SO GET OVER IT ALREADY!

 

[nycbusdriver]

----------------
On 6/3/2003 10:57:18 PM Chip Munn wrote:


Chip comments: ...ALPA is not inclined to grant management further scope relief and will not permit the CRJ-705 to operate, at this time.

Chip


----------------​

Thanks for the comic relief, Chip. I needed a good laugh.

 

[BoredToDeath]

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On 6/4/2003 11:28:23 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:

Wrong. There's no way you'll take your full seniority while the mainline guys don't. It ain't gonna happen, so you'd better forget it. Wait and see what happens. It was mainline ALPA that pushed for the flowthru in the firstplace, and there's NO WAY you'll be senior to the mainline guys at MDA. SO GET OVER IT ALREADY!

----------------​

Oldie,

I'll tell ya, you've got some major attitude issues, none the less, the following is some education for the both of us. And for the record the flow through was not pushed by your MEC. The only thing your MEC pushed for was to shove your furloughes on our senoirity list. I'll stop there before I get to worked up.

Anyway, this was taken from the US Airways MEC Fact Sheet regarding the Restructuring Agreement dated July 15,2002. It will show that many of the points that you mentioned were false as was my statement about seniority. I know that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, carefull don't wet your Depends. The Longevity and no interview however are true.


1.MDA will recognize and bargain a contract with ALPA based on various stated requirements including average of ACO, CMR, CALEX. All MDA positions will be filled first by US Airways pilots on the Affected Pilot List (furloughed) in their order on such list, followed next by pilots from the Participating Wholly-Owned Carriers on the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier Pilot List, followed by new-hire pilots. A US Airways pilot on the Affected Pilot List who has stated MDA as a preference may displace into MDA if he is senior to the most junior MDA pilot.


2.Longevity for pay and benefit purposes of all pilots from US Airways and Participating Wholly Owned Carriers shall be based upon the pilot's longevity at US Airways or the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier from which he came to MDA, together with his longevity at MDA.


3.All US Airways pilots employed by MDA shall be paid the
greater of the pay rate applicable to the aircraft/longevity that they hold or $50 per hour.


4. Job opportunities and job rights preserved in change of control of MDA or sale of a majority of the assets of the MDA.


5.Provisions would be made to permit a US Airways pilot who would otherwise not have been furloughed to bid to MDA vacancy in order to eliminate the furlough of a junior pilot. {Subject to resolution of Mainline training holds/training early/TDY/moving expense issues.)


6.Pilots on the Affected Pilot List may express a preference for an MDA position limited to a Large Jet category .


7.If a pilot is employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier or Participating Affiliate Carrier, he may bid for a Large SJ MDA Captain vacancy and will be awarded such vacancy in order of his US Airways pilot seniority {subject to the training freeze and coverage hold provisions, and subject to early release based on the needs of the carrier)-


8.A pilot may bypass an offer of employment with MDA without losing his position on the Affected Pilot List, regardless of his preference. He may bypass an offer of employment with a Participating Wholly- Owned Carrier or a Participating Affiliate Carrier without losing his position on the Affected Pilot List, so long as there are junior Affected Pilots available to accept such offer.


9.Flow-through provisions to and from Participating Wholly-Owned carriers, MDA, and US Airways.

 

[LavMan]

Thanks Bored, I love it when someone proves the old codger wrong!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You''re STILL wrong. All that was changed in a later LOA. The one that changed mainline seniority (which was, in prior agreements, to get full seniority for pay and benefits. I believe it was titled "Changes to restructuring agreement", and was part of Dave''s second time to the trough) to first year pay for all. Don''t believe me, ask your union officials. That is of course, if ANY WO guy gets to go to MDA. Why would the company give YOU full seniority when they could hire a new guy off the street? Just wait, You''ll see exactly what I mean, if it EVER happens. YOU ARE TOTALLY INCORRECT. ASK YOUR UNION ABOUT IT!
Oh, and Lavman, for a guy that THINKS he knows as much as you do, you''re really in the proper occupation!

 

[BoredToDeath]

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On 6/3/2003 5:05:40 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

Sorry, I don''t buy it. Management plans on using the RJs to replace many of the routes which they have taken or will take mainline flying from.

That makes it MAINLINE FLYING. Therefore, IT SHOULD BE FLOWN BY MAINLINE PILOTS.

All that ALPA did was set a "scope" limit of 25 CRJ-700s, all of which had to go to MDA (because of the size, since all large RJs are going to MDA).

----------------​

To your first statement: The economics don''t support flying 73''s and Airbuses like an express aircraft. I agree that Mgt should''nt be taking away your planes, but they can''t continue to use them like this anymore. They should be used for long haul, period.

For the second: Sorry but the reality is that US Airways, PDT, ALG, PSA, and now MDA are all part of the US Airways Group and the flying belongs to all of us. Just maybe if some of you at Mainline would pull your heads out of your arses for two minutes you would see that and be able to work with us at getting all the flying back within the Group instead of thinking that this is just your company. That would be much more productive, don''t you think?

And finally for the last statement, the following should take care of that.

From LOA83:

A.Up to 20 “Medium SJsâ€￾ and up to 30 “Large SJsâ€￾ (CRJ-700 aircraft only) may be operated by Mesa Airlines or by any wholly owned subsidiary of Mesa Air Group or Mesa Airlines under terms agreed to between Mesa Air Group and the Association. Such aircraft shall be subject to the Jets for Jobs Protocol and must be placed into revenue operation no later than December 31, 2004.

B.Up to 25 “Large SJsâ€￾ (CRJ-700 aircraft only), in addition to the 30 “Large SJsâ€￾ authorized in Paragraph 2.A. above, may be placed into revenue operation by Participating Affiliate Carriers, provided that they are placed into revenue service no later than December 31, 2004, and provided further that they are subject to the Jets for Jobs Protocol (Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement). The foregoing does not preclude the placement of Large SJs in MDA in accordance with Attachment B of the Restructuring Agreement as amended by LOA 84.

C.Up to 25 “Large SJsâ€￾, specificially limited to the CRJ-700, may be placed into revenue operation at a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier, other than MDA. All Large SJ positions created by operation of this paragraph shall be filled by US Airways pilots in accordance with the Jets for Jobs Protocol, Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement. In addition, as an exception to the Jets for Jobs Protocol, 100% of the first 25 Medium or Small Jet positions at the Wholly Owned Carrier where the above Large Small Jets are placed shall be filled by pilots of that Wholly Owned Carrier. Upon completion of the staffing of these aircraft, the 50/50 balance of hiring pursuant to the Jets for Jobs Protocol will be followed.

 

[LavMan]

oldie you have been proven wrong time and time again on the board, you would figure at your age you would learn to accept it by now, is it the early onset of Alzheimers or did you forget to take your Geritol?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

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On 6/4/2003 7:57:33 PM LavMan wrote:


oldie you have been proven wrong time and time again on the board, you would figure at your age you would learn to accept it by now, is it the early onset of Alzheimers or did you forget to take your Geritol?

----------------​

Nope, He's wrong, and, I guess, by association, so are you! Don't believe me, What I'm saying is in ALPA's LOA 84, attachment A. I would reprint it here, but it doesn't really matter to you. HE'S ABSOLUTELY 100% WRONG, AND IF HE DOESN'T KNOW IT YET, HE'D BETTER GET AN EDUCATION FAST! Hey Lav, the fumes are starting to affect your mental capacity! BY the way, if you knew someone or had a loved one with a serious condition like the one you make light of, you wouldn't think it very funny at all. By the way, if what he is saying is true, Mainline guys, many of whom have 15 years or so seniority going into their furlough, would immediately become 15 year MDA captains, and only take about a $10/hour paycut. What furloughee wouldn't go for that? You know that isn't correct. Atch A of LOA 84 changed all that.

 

[BoredToDeath]

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On 6/4/2003 832 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

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On 6/4/2003 7:57:33 PM LavMan wrote:


oldie you have been proven wrong time and time again on the board, you would figure at your age you would learn to accept it by now, is it the early onset of Alzheimers or did you forget to take your Geritol?

----------------​

Nope, He's wrong, and, I guess, by association, so are you! Don't believe me, What I'm saying is in ALPA's LOA 84, attachment A. I would reprint it here, but it doesn't really matter to you. HE'S ABSOLUTELY 100% WRONG, AND IF HE DOESN'T KNOW IT YET, HE'D BETTER GET AN EDUCATION FAST! Hey Lav, the fumes are starting to affect your mental capacity! BY the way, if you knew someone or had a loved one with a serious condition like the one you make light of, you wouldn't think it very funny at all. By the way, if what he is saying is true, Mainline guys, many of whom have 15 years or so seniority going into their furlough, would immediately become 15 year MDA captains, and only take about a $10/hour paycut. What furloughee wouldn't go for that? You know that isn't correct. Atch A of LOA 84 changed all that.

----------------​

RUTROW SHAGGY,

QUESS WHATS MISSING FROM THIS!!!!!



SUPPLEMENTARY COST REDUCTIONS LETTER #84

LETTER OF AGREEMENT
Between

US AIRWAYS GROUP INC, US AIRWAYS INC.

and

THE AIRLINE PILOTS

in the service of

US AIRWAYS, INC.

as represented by

THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL


Well gee wiz scobby, thats easy. The names of the Wholly-Owned companies.

I think you can see where I'm going with this.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Just wait and see.  You haven't got a clue.  If you come to MDA, you'll start at THE BOTTOM, just like everyone else.  Don't believe me, just ask your union rep., or call ALPA directly.  You see, if you come to MDA, you'd fall under THIS LOA.  

Here, in fact, is the EXACT wording:


JETS FOR JOBS RATES:              The Company may implement the following changes to rates of pay for MidAtlantic (“MDAâ€) and for Jets for Jobs with Participating Wholly Owned Carriers and Participating Affiliates:
1.                  Non MDA Jets for Jobs rates of pay
a.                  Captains paid in accordance with the applicable contract with longevity under that contract; no longevity credit for prior US Airways service
b.                  First Officer rates pay top of scale under applicable contract
2.                  MDA rates of pay for US Airways pilots
a.                  Captains paid in accordance with MDA contract with longevity under that contract; no longevity credit for prior US Airways service
b.                  First Officer rates pay top of scale under MDA contract

By the way, if you "flowed thru", you wouldn't even get that, you'd start as a year 1 copilot, and the only thing your seniority would entitle you to is seniority for travel and possibly a few other minor benefits, but you'd be at the bottom for pay and position, just like when f/as come to flight operations after being an agent.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Oldie,

You crack me up. Please reread what you posted, "CAREFULLY" this time and then tell me who that "PERTAINS" to. If you don't figure it out by say 5:00pm tonight I'll come back and break it down for ya.

Man its a good thing your not on anyones negotiating committe.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I know exactly what it says. Just wait and see (if you can EVER get on at MDA to start with) and see what you end up with. Then get back to me.

 

[the turtle]

While you fellas argue who will sit where and on what list your number happens to fall, the smart guys are finishing ioe with Mesa and earning a paycheck. Now someone tell me: who''s the smarter pilot, the guy who jumped at the first opportunity and is getting payed NOW or the pissed-off APL furloughee who won''t accept anything less than left seat at MDA? Seems to me the 6-12-18 month (or more)wait can never be recovered.

just my 2 cents.

 

[BoredToDeath]

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On 6/5/2003 9:15:26 PM the turtle wrote:

While you fellas argue who will sit where and on what list your number happens to fall, the smart guys are finishing ioe with Mesa and earning a paycheck. Now someone tell me: who''s the smarter pilot, the guy who jumped at the first opportunity and is getting payed NOW or the pissed-off APL furloughee who won''t accept anything less than left seat at MDA? Seems to me the 6-12-18 month (or more)wait can never be recovered.

just my 2 cents.



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Turtle,

Actualy the smarter guy is the one who does''nt jump into the middle of threads with his two cents thinking he knows what the conversation is about. So far I have''nt heard from one as you said,"pissed off APL furloughee" yet. This conversation so far has been between a Mainline pilot and a WO pilot, neither of whom are on the street.

But had the conversation been about what you described, then yes you would be absolutly right. Anyone on the APL that turns down a position at any Jets 4 Jobs carrier would be putting him/or herself at risk of losing an income. At least for a short period of time.