Chinese Fossil May Link Birds and Dinosaurs

[Dignity]

You lost me. I view a 'day' as a unit of measurement.

that is because you are thinking with a human mind.

It was devised by man to measure the length of time it takes the earth to make one revolution on it's axis.

"devised by man" (keep that in mind)

If the term day was used in the bible, it has it be interpreted as a 24 hour period. That is it's only interpretation here on earth.

it is used that way as an example, or simply how we in our human thinking can comprehend what a "day" is...based on what we have determined..

a being capable of creating the universe, would not be limited to a 24 hour time period for a "day".

Regardless of how one wants to define what a day is, do you believe that man walked with dinosaurs?

if you read the Bible, God would have created dinosaurs just as he would have created Human Beings and all life forms..however something happened to the dinosaurs that wiped out the species (most of the ones on land). the Bible indicates there was a great flood..

(this is where Noah comes into the picture and his ark)

however, God created animals first, then wild animals to their kinds beasts, bugs..ext.

and then he made man and then he made woman.

so it is possible dinosaurs were created first, and then for some reason he

1. re-created all the animals

or

2. something wiped them out..

(flood, asteroid, land mass shift, the Sun ext..)

on the flip side..

the Sun lined up with something..causing the Sun to emit unusually high solar storms, our planet heated up and the dinosaurs received very high levels of radiation that was not all deflected by the magnetic field or something happened to the magnetic field that altered it temporarily and wiped them out.

I think it had something to do with the Sun that took the dinosaurs out.. in some capacity..

Do you believe that we did not evolve from some sort of more primitive ancestors such as Ardi and Lucy?

I do believe that species adapt, but I do not believe that species evolve from one species to another.

Do you believe that the various species that exist on the Galapagos islands had a common ancestor with species on the continents that managed over time to evolve into separate sub-species that are only found on in the Galapagos? As far as I am aware, the marine Iguanas only exist in there and no where else yet they are genetically related to their main land cousins.

the surface of our planet changes, as in the past and it will again in the future. because we are on the planet with other life forms will not change that. so..knowing that it can change... simply continents divide, ext.

it would be possible that a species that was on a continent,

there was a major shift or change on the surface of the planet and therefore a species that was together with many others.. may have become isolated on a particular land mass,

when that shift occured.

 

[Garfield1966]

It makes little sense to use a word that man would not understand since the bible is intended for man to read. If the term 'day' is being misinterpreted then who knows what else is not understood in the bible. What does 'made' mean? 'Created'? Is a 'day' the only thing that is in question? Seems a bit convenient? By the way, why would a omnipotent being with no limitations need more than a nanosecond to create everything? And why would this being even need a rest. It's omnipotent. Given that the bible was write by man, it is likely that day means day.

Why create something and then wipe it out? Why create various forms of hominids that are obviously related by genealogy only to let the previous ones die out. If you do not believe we are related to Ardi and Lucy, why were they created in the first place? They obviously did exist since we have their bones to prove it. Mammoth's existed and evolved into elephants or Mammoth were just wiped out and an an elephant appeared. Why create a Mammoth only to wipe it out?

Most of the land masses in the Pacific Ocean are too far for animals to get there on their own. It has already been proven that storms and currents brought most of the animals there. The rest were stowaways on ancient boats. Marine Iguanas are still Iguanas but they are a separate species. If you wish to believe they were designed that way from the get go along with all the other species on the islands knock your self out.



It is obvious this conversation is going no where. You are basing your information on faith and I on science. The two lines of through are straight as an arrow and will never intersect.

 

[Dignity]

It makes little sense to use a word that man would not understand since the bible is intended for man to read. If the term 'day' is being misinterpreted then who knows what else is not understood in the bible. What does 'made' mean? 'Created'? Is a 'day' the only thing that is in question? Seems a bit convenient? By the way, why would a omnipotent being with no limitations need more than a nanosecond to create everything? And why would this being even need a rest. It's omnipotent. Given that the bible was write by man, it is likely that day means day.

because Man interprets a "day" to be 24 hours, does not mean that God does..

(was the point)

Why create something and then wipe it out?

well Man does that to species all the time, that is why there is an endangered species list..

so go figure..

Why create various forms of hominids that are obviously related by genealogy only to let the previous ones die out. If you do not believe we are related to Ardi and Lucy, why were they created in the first place?

I did not say that, what I said was simply,

I do not believe species evolve into other species..

They obviously did exist since we have their bones to prove it. Mammoth's existed and evolved into elephants or Mammoth were just wiped out and an an elephant appeared. Why create a Mammoth only to wipe it out?

well of course they existed but not every fossilized bone someone finds from x million years ago.. is to say..

"wow, see this is what we use to look like"

Most of the land masses in the Pacific Ocean are too far for animals to get there on their own. It has already been proven that storms and currents brought most of the animals there. The rest were stowaways on ancient boats. Marine Iguanas are still Iguanas but they are a separate species. If you wish to believe they were designed that way from the get go along with all the other species on the islands knock your self out.

the surface of the planet millions to billions of years ago would not look the way it does today.. so it may seem "too far" today for animals to get there on their own, but it may have not been the case when the continents (or how the surface of the planet appeared at another time)

if a continent shifts, the plants and animals may go along with it.

(is probably how they got out there Im thinking..)

It is obvious this conversation is going no where. You are basing your information on faith and I on science. The two lines of through are straight as an arrow and will never intersect.

because you dont have answers and keep asking questions is why its sort of not going anywhere.

*I keep an open mind including faith and science working together simultaneously.

the universe was created.

faith includes the belief of a higher being.

science and technology explains how the process happened..

(the six "days" of creation)

1 Day for Man = 24 hours

1 Day for God = way more than 24 hours (a lot more)

 

[Garfield1966]

Like I said, why use a word that does not have a standard meaning? Why would god need more than the blink of an eye to create it all and why wipe out half of what was created just to create something else. Seems like when religion does not like the way something is interpreted, they change it to fit the facts. a Day is a day. What's the big deal? We are talking about an omnipotent being. Seems like creating a mere universe with all life would be child's play. Blink your eyes and poof.

So you say a day is more for god than it is for earth. Exactly how long is gods day and exactly how did you arrive at that conclusion. As they said in school. Please show your work.

As for the land masses in the Pacific, there are almost all volcanic in origin. They are far younger than the origin of the earth and were never attached to any land mass. Look at the Hawaiian islands as an example. The land mass idea does work for places such as Australia since at some time it was attached to a main land mass.

Man wiping out a species is not the same as god wiping out a species(s). And we are talking about wiping out species. There is no way to collect two of every species on the plant and place them on a boat for any length of time. Aside from the size of a vessel needed (I doubt a Nimitz class carrier would be large enough) it would be virtually impossible to collect a mating pair of each animal.

Faith and science are mutually exclusive. Faith asks you to believe just because it is written. Science said "here is a theory as to what happened. Prove it wrong". Science constantly questions it's self and seeks to prove it's self wrong or right. Science is not afraid to say it was wrong and change directions. The fact that the bible says that earth existed before the stars is hog wash according to science.

I have questions, you have none. That is the reason the conversation goes no where.

 

[Dignity]

Like I said, why use a word that does not have a standard meaning? Why would god need more than the blink of an eye to create it all and why wipe out half of what was created just to create something else.

because he is God and God can do whatever he wants because he can..

(I would guess)

*thats not considered a question.

Seems like when religion does not like the way something is interpreted, they change it to fit the facts. a Day is a day. What's the big deal?

but a day on Earth is not a "day" on Jupiter, is not a "day" on Venus and is not a "day" to

God.

(this has been discussed)

we already know through technology a solar system/galaxy/whatever just does not happen..instantaneously, there is a process..

that process is what I would refer to as the series of "days"..
each day represents a process, that day just may happen to be billions of years.

We are talking about an omnipotent being. Seems like creating a mere universe with all life would be child's play. Blink your eyes and poof.

I think there is a lot more involved creating a universe than simply..

blinking and poofing..

So you say a day is more for god than it is for earth. Exactly how long is gods day and exactly how did you arrive at that conclusion. As they said in school. Please show your work.

it is an estimation based on technology that dates our Solar System, Planets, the Sun ext..

(I assumed you got that part)

As for the land masses in the Pacific, there are almost all volcanic in origin. They are far younger than the origin of the earth and were never attached to any land mass. Look at the Hawaiian islands as an example. The land mass idea does work for places such as Australia since at some time it was attached to a main land mass.

the surface of the planet is continously changing, just because an underwater volcano created an island does not mean that x million years ago, there was water covering the volcano..

Man wiping out a species is not the same as god wiping out a species(s). And we are talking about wiping out species.

wiping out a species is wiping out a species.

There is no way to collect two of every species on the plant and place them on a boat for any length of time. Aside from the size of a vessel needed (I doubt a Nimitz class carrier would be large enough) it would be virtually impossible to collect a mating pair of each animal.

but they can build cruise ships with people all over it partying and getting sun tanned, so well..

OK...

*I would suggest SPF 15 and higher for sunny days on the ship and to use the spray on tan...

if at all possible

P.S. dont forget the lip balm.

Faith and science are mutually exclusive. Faith asks you to believe just because it is written. Science said "here is a theory as to what happened. Prove it wrong". Science constantly questions it's self and seeks to prove it's self wrong or right. Science is not afraid to say it was wrong and change directions. The fact that the bible says that earth existed before the stars is hog wash according to science.

there is a lot more to Faith than simply just believing something in writing, and science is not always there to prove something wrong rather than explain what happened.

(is sort of how I look at it)

I have questions, you have none. That is the reason the conversation goes no where.

you are the one who said it went no where, I just happen to agree that it doesnt because all you do is ask questions.

its hard to carry on a conversation when all you get it..

how that happened? what? or huh?

the bottom line..

Man did not create the Earth, the Sun and the Universe, but something did.

there has to be an entity that is larger than the universe in order for the universe to exist..

(that is what I believe in..a higher power/being/creator...God)

 

[Garfield1966]

Actually a day is the same where ever you go. The length of that day may vary but the standard by which it is measured is the same. It is the time it takes for the planet to rotate once on it's axis. Given that the bible was written by god for man to read here on planet earth, it stands to reason that the length of a day is a earth day, not an unknown god day.

Perhaps you should check the definition of omnipotent.

Estimation my ass. Estimations are used in science not religion. All you have is what's in your bible. So unless you have something in your bible that defines a day (other than a day as we earthlings know it) all you are doing is making stuff up to fit reality. By your logic, back in the old days they were reading the bible wrong. Two thousand years ago no one new about the age of the earth much less dinosaurs, fossil records, our galaxy and the rest of it. All they knew about a day was 24 hours from sun up to sun up. So sorry, but that dog does not hunt.

Wiping out a single species like man does by over hunting, pollution or what have you is not quite the same as a meteor coming down and wiping out nearly all life in one fell swoop. Neither is it the same as causing a flood to wipe out all life with the exception of two of each species.

What a cruise ship has to do with gathering 2 of every species (do you have any idea how many insects there are n the earth?). Between the known and unknown there are between 6-10 million of them.

Prove that something created earth. You cannot. You want to believe that something created earth but you have not one shred of evidence. Science explain how it happened. Why most people need to believe that there was an origin to something is beyond me. I guess most people have a need not feel random, like they have a purpose. Mans vanity would be quite humorous were it not so dangerous. I agree with science in that matter can neither be destroyed nor created. Every thing that is has always been and always will be. The fact that man has a difficult time understanding that is not my problem. There was no beginning and there will be no end. We are random. We are as random as the life that surely exists on other planets in our galaxy and in other galaxies. Life has only existed on this rock for a few hundred million years and may exist for a few hundred million more. A mere blink of an eye in terms of the universe.

Were it up to religion we would still be in a cave some where eating raw meat and wearing loin cloth's. Were it not for those who were brave enough to tell the all knowing arrogant religions that they were wrong we would still believe the earth was the center of the universe (nope, wrong) and burning witch's the stake. We would probably believe that life can occur spontaneously (oh yea, you do) as opposed to microbes and other small organism that can cause disease and infection.

Perhaps if religion asked questions as opposed to believing a fairy tale ... Oh never mind. Then religion would not exist.

 

[Dignity]

Actually a day is the same where ever you go. The length of that day may vary but the standard by which it is measured is the same. It is the time it takes for the planet to rotate once on it's axis. Given that the bible was written by god for man to read here on planet earth, it stands to reason that the length of a day is a earth day, not an unknown god day.

that may be true on our planet but not everywhere. if you believe the length of a day varies, then of course a "day" that is as little as 10 hours on Jupiter can also be a day 2.5 Billion for God (the estimate)

so basically you are contradicting yourself.. as you claimed 24 hours is a day everywhere and that would be the same for God.. then God's day would also have been 24 hours and of course we know that cannot be true.

(because it takes more than 24 hours for the Sun to take form to its present day state) as one example.

Perhaps you should check the definition of omnipotent.
Estimation my ass. Estimations are used in science not religion.

this is a message board, not science class.. but to clarify..having unlimited power does not mean the universe was created in six, twenty four hour periods.

(it takes a little longer than that)

All you have is what's in your bible. So unless you have something in your bible that defines a day (other than a day as we earthlings know it) all you are doing is making stuff up to fit reality. By your logic, back in the old days they were reading the bible wrong. Two thousand years ago no one new about the age of the earth much less dinosaurs, fossil records, our galaxy and the rest of it. All they knew about a day was 24 hours from sun up to sun up. So sorry, but that dog does not hunt.

our solar system was not created in six, twenty four hour periods..

again...

(that part goes right over your head!)

Wiping out a single species like man does by over hunting, pollution or what have you is not quite the same as a meteor coming down and wiping out nearly all life in one fell swoop.

so if Man goes out and hunts an entire species of wild animals and wipes them out..or a huge rock falls from space wouldnt the end result be the same?

Neither is it the same as causing a flood to wipe out all life with the exception of two of each species.

What a cruise ship has to do with gathering 2 of every species (do you have any idea how many insects there are n the earth?). Between the known and unknown there are between 6-10 million of them.

the point is simply, if a "boat" can be built that has

1. Casinos
2. Restaurants
3. Hotels suites
4. Theaters
5. Shops
6. Bars
7. Swimming pools and Mini golf
8. Thousands of people
9. Hundreds of staff
10. Multiple Ships all over the planet

why would an ark that houses animals be out of the question?

Prove that something created earth. You cannot. You want to believe that something created earth but you have not one shred of evidence. Science explain how it happened. Why most people need to believe that there was an origin to something is beyond me. I guess most people have a need not feel random, like they have a purpose.

The Earth did not always exist as it does today, as a matter of fact there was a time very long ago when there was no Earth, Moon, our Solar System and Sun at all!

Mans vanity would be quite humorous were it not so dangerous. I agree with science in that matter can neither be destroyed nor created. Every thing that is has always been and always will be.

prove it.

The fact that man has a difficult time understanding that is not my problem. There was no beginning and there will be no end. We are random. We are as random as the life that surely exists on other planets in our galaxy and in other galaxies. Life has only existed on this rock for a few hundred million years and may exist for a few hundred million more. A mere blink of an eye in terms of the universe.

Its that "my way or the highway attitude" I know...I know.

Were it up to religion we would still be in a cave some where eating raw meat and wearing loin cloth's. Were it not for those who were brave enough to tell the all knowing arrogant religions that they were wrong we would still believe the earth was the center of the universe (nope, wrong) and burning witch's the stake. We would probably believe that life can occur spontaneously (oh yea, you do) as opposed to microbes and other small organism that can cause disease and infection.

now you are just rambling.

Perhaps if religion asked questions as opposed to believing a fairy tale ... Oh never mind. Then religion would not exist.

You seem to spend a significant amount of time "rambling" on about something you view as a "fairy tale" and oh yeah..doesnt exist! :blink:

 

[Gilding the Lily]

I think you guys are arguing two different things that neither of you can "win." While your disagreement is over a length of a day, it is largely pretext as to who you believe is the author of the bible. Garfield likely believes the bible is solely written by men, so in his mind it makes complete sense that a day's length can only be given the unit of time that has always been given to it by man. Dignity likely believes that the bible was God-inspired, so in his mind it makes complete sense that a day's length at the time of creation can be given a unit of time that it outside the limitations of man's day on earth. Neither of you will budge on that issue as disguised as a length of day issue.

 

[Dignity]

Dignity likely believes that the bible was God-inspired, so in his mind it makes complete sense that a day's length at the time of creation can be given a unit of time that it outside the limitations of man's day on earth.

a supernatural being's day would not have a specific time period or limits..however while considering the physical world there are definite time periods and therefore what may be a nanosecond in the supernatural realm may translate to billions of years in real time for one "day".

(thats sort of how I look at it)

 

[Garfield1966]

I think you guys are arguing two different things that neither of you can "win." While your disagreement is over a length of a day, it is largely pretext as to who you believe is the author of the bible. Garfield likely believes the bible is solely written by men, so in his mind it makes complete sense that a day's length can only be given the unit of time that has always been given to it by man. Dignity likely believes that the bible was God-inspired, so in his mind it makes complete sense that a day's length at the time of creation can be given a unit of time that it outside the limitations of man's day on earth. Neither of you will budge on that issue as disguised as a length of day issue.

Exactly. That is why I said the conversation is going no where.

 

[Dignity]

Exactly. That is why I said the conversation is going no where.

you said the conversation was going nowhere because I based everything on faith, which I do not (and of course some unnecessary irrelevant questions)

there is science that shows the process how our universe develops.

your issue is simply you base everything on science while never taking into consideration there may be something else.. that our human minds cannot comprehend...another level.

thats why it really goes no where..

personally I am a very open minded person.

it doesn't really bother me...someone being an atheist

whatever floats your boat.


just as long as someone doesnt try to point out the fact the entire universe was created in 144 hours.

because that's not possible.

(I believe there is more to our existence than simply what you see in front of you)

 

[Garfield1966]

Is your mind open to the point that here might not be a god and the bible might be fiction?

I am open to the idea that there might be a god and the bible might be true. I will not accept it on faith any more than I will believe in the tooth fairy, Santa or Hanuka Harry. Show me proof and I will believe.

As for your interpretation of the day, I see no logic behind your version. The bible says a day, it was written for humans so as far as I am concern a day is, as far as the bible is concerned, 24 hours.

Are there any other terms used in the bible that are being interpreted incorrectly or is this the only one?

I believe what I can hear/taste/feel/see or prove by scientific method. There are a few things that I believe could exist but with out proof I will 'believe' it as I believe things that fall into the first category.

I have no problem believing that this is all there is. I have no compelling or over whelming need to know what happened before you say nothing was there. I have no problem believing that there was never a time that there was nothing. Matter was always there. There has always been something and there always will be something.

You claim god started it all. Well, if we are going to go that route, who created god? If no one created god then why the need for a god in the first place. Either god always existed or matter always existed. I prefer the latter. Much more logical as far as I am concerned.

I like science. It has created nearly everything we come into contact every day of our lives. I am more incline to believe what science tells me than what one of many fairy tale tells me.

 

[Dignity]

Is your mind open to the point that here might not be a god and the bible might be fiction?

I dont think the universe just happened, it was created.

I am open to the idea that there might be a god and the bible might be true. I will not accept it on faith any more than I will believe in the tooth fairy, Santa or Hanuka Harry. Show me proof and I will believe.

thats called Faith.

As for your interpretation of the day, I see no logic behind your version. The bible says a day, it was written for humans so as far as I am concern a day is, as far as the bible is concerned, 24 hours.

thats just your personal opinion.

Are there any other terms used in the bible that are being interpreted incorrectly or is this the only one?

why dont you pick it up and read it and determine that for yourself?

I believe what I can hear/taste/feel/see or prove by scientific method. There are a few things that I believe could exist but with out proof I will 'believe' it as I believe things that fall into the first category.

because we have physical limitations does not mean it does not exist.

I have no problem believing that this is all there is. I have no compelling or over whelming need to know what happened before you say nothing was there. I have no problem believing that there was never a time that there was nothing. Matter was always there. There has always been something and there always will be something.

after matter was created it will always be there, but it had to get here first in order to stay here. how did that happen? God.
you say "Matter was always there" because you can observe energy but cannot do so with God. God is not part of creation and thus beyond our ability to perceive on our own, all we can know of God is what he reveals to us.

You claim god started it all. Well, if we are going to go that route, who created god? If no one created god then why the need for a god in the first place. Either god always existed or matter always existed. I prefer the latter. Much more logical as far as I am concerned.

or both have always existed.

I like science. It has created nearly everything we come into contact every day of our lives. I am more incline to believe what science tells me than what one of many fairy tale tells me.

I like science too..

so, do you think they tell you every single thing they find out there?

 

[Garfield1966]

I dont think the universe just happened, it was created.

That is not what I asked. I asked if you were open to the idea that your beliefs are wrong. That there may be no god and the bible is not accurate.

thats called Faith.

No, it's called being open to an idea being proven. Faith means to take something as fact with no proof being presented.

thats just your personal opinion.


DUH!! So is yours.

why dont you pick it up and read it and determine that for yourself?

Did. I take the words as they are written. A day is 24 hours. You are the one who has claimed that a day is not 24 hours. I want to know if there are any other words that you feel have a different meaning.

Actually, I'll give you a freebe. When Moses lead the jews out of Egypt he supposedly spread the waters so they could pass and then closed them and drowned the Egyptian soldiers. Archeologists and historians think what likely happened was the jews were able to cross the water due to the fact that they had very little with them. The Egyptians were laden down with armor and provisions and drowned due to the weight. Not very bright on their part but we can let that slide for argument sake.

Your turn.

because we have physical limitations does not mean it does not exist.

What do physical limitations have to do with anything? I have never said that something does or does not exist. I merely stated that simply because the National Enquirer says some lady was inseminated by an alien does not mean it happened. Show me some evidence that can be tested via scientific method and I will be more likely to believe it. Faith is not something I accept as proof.

after matter was created it will always be there, but it had to get here first in order to stay here. how did that happen? God.
you say "Matter was always there" because you can observe energy but cannot do so with God. God is not part of creation and thus beyond our ability to perceive on our own, all we can know of God is what he reveals to us.


or both have always existed.

UM, I think you just goofed. If both have always existed, then god did not create matter and there is no reason why god would have had to create anything. But as I said earlier, science and logic dictate that matter cannot be created. Matter has always been. Infinity. This seems to be a hard concept for man to accept. Man is not comfortable with the idea of infinity. Similar to the idea of dividing something in half. You can do it for ever. Infinity. You will never get to a point where something cannot be divide in half.

And since I cannot observe god or any proof that it exists, I have no reason to believe in it.

I like science too..

so, do you think they tell you every single thing they find out there?


Yes, pretty much. Any significant findings are published for peer review. I am pretty sure anything having to do with the supernatural and the origins of the earth/life/galaxy/universe qualify as significant. I have read a substantial number of papers on the latter but have not read a single one supporting anything supernatural. I guess that stands to reason though. If science can explain it, it's not supernatural.

 

[Garfield1966]

Just to get a base line of where we stand.

How old to you think man is or do you agree with the scientific theory?

Do you believe man originated as we are now with Adam and Eve or do you believe we are related to Lucy and Ardi or some other as yet undiscovered ancestors?

Do you believe that man co-existed with dinosaurs?


I believe in the scientific theories of the age of man

I believe that we are related to older ancestors

I do not believe that man and dinosaurs ever co-existed other than those few species that survived the meteor impact and ensuing mass extinction.