Checkmate

[FWAAA]

Typical response from a Kool-Aid drinker from Delta. A union can negotiate for you and offer less then what the company wants. Please tell us how as a non-union employee you plan to negotiate paycuts without a union?

Do you eat, sleep and dream kissing Delta's a$$?

[post="167352"][/post]​

What Hotel doesn't tell us is exactly what their union dues did for the AA FAs (or any other work group at AA, for that matter) in last years' concession "negotiations."

I suspect I know why - the answer is "nothing."

All that money spent on dues, and it didn't accomplish anything. AA's employees took the paycuts, and the TWA employees were kicked to the curb.

As if a union (and its accompanying dues) makes the concessions any easier to swallow. Fools and their money are soon parted.

 

[aislehopper]

Typical response from a Kool-Aid drinker from Delta. A union can negotiate for you and offer less then what the company wants. Please tell us how as a non-union employee you plan to negotiate paycuts without a union?

[post="167352"][/post]​

Please tell us how as a union member your union, APFA, kept you from having to take a paycut, lose vacation, etc.?

 

[N305AS]

You keep suggesting other options that DL looks at (other than cutting pilot salaries) to save money.

What would those be, exactly? Please show me some MEANINGFUL cuts that can be made and will put a significant dent into DL's operating costs.

I'm sure your first reaction is to cut management's pay. Fine - except they probably already have, and even so, I'd doubt you could come up with more than perhaps $10-20M in yearly savings if you hacked away at both pay levels AND cutting jobs from the management ranks.

To be fair, I've ALWAYS been a big supporter of pilots in general, and believe they should keep whatever their union can negotiate for them.

HOWEVER - in today's marketplace, DL pilots' payscales are grossly inflated compared to those at their competitors, and that's a fact.


FACT - The industry average at other carriers for topped-out 777 captains in the U.S. is $200/block hour

FACT - at DL that same topped-out 777 captain makes $320/block hour


FACT - The industry average at other carriers for topped-out 737-800 captains in the U.S. is $171/block hour

FACT - at DL that same topped-out 737-800 captain makes $257/block hour


These disproportionate wages are keeping DL firmly in the red and will prevent the company from returning to profitability.



Source = http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/

 

[LiveInAHotel]

Why waste my time talking union with all of you brainwashed, I will do anything management says, Kool-Aid drinking, non-union Delta employees. No matter what anyone says about unions, you guys just say is "we're better off non-union." CS, you should know better. How is Song treating you? Have you tried out for the tightrope act yet onboard the circus airline?

 

[aislehopper]

Why waste my time talking union with all of you brainwashed, I will do anything management says, Kool-Aid drinking, non-union Delta employees. No matter what anyone says about unions, you guys just say is "we're better off non-union." CS, you should know better. How is Song treating you? Have you tried out for the tightrope act yet onboard the circus airline?

[post="167409"][/post]​

The fact that you do not respond to my question suggests that you are drinking your own flavor of Kool-Aid to avoid thinking for yourself.

Again, how did your membership in APFA keep you from taking pay and benefit cuts?

 

[Vikedog64]

Why waste my time talking union with all of you brainwashed, I will do anything management says, Kool-Aid drinking, non-union Delta employees. No matter what anyone says about unions, you guys just say is "we're better off non-union." CS, you should know better. How is Song treating you? Have you tried out for the tightrope act yet onboard the circus airline?

[post="167409"][/post]​

Honestly, who are you? Your comments are the stuff made for comic relief!! Deltas only hope of avoiding BK is for everyone to contribute.. employees, management, vendors, etc. This isn't about union vs. non union. This is about totally changing DAL as we know it. No major in my opinion will survive if they continue the status quo. Be assured Mr. Hotel, if DAL has any success in our overhaul your company and others will try to follow suit. Anyone think I am wrong???k :down:

 

[scorpion]

Typical response from a Kool-Aid drinker from Delta. A union can negotiate for you and offer less then what the company wants. Please tell us how as a non-union employee you plan to negotiate paycuts without a union?

Do you eat, sleep and dream kissing Delta's a$$?

[post="167352"][/post]​

Apparently you have no experience with the Transport Workers Union. AA said this is what we want from you guys, how you split it up is your buisness PERIOD. The twu didn't even try and negotiate with the company. All I can say to the mechanics at Delta is to stay away from this so called bargaining agent.(TWU).


AA mechanic

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

The fact that you do not respond to my question suggests that you are drinking your own flavor of Kool-Aid to avoid thinking for yourself.

Again, how did your membership in APFA keep you from taking pay and benefit cuts?

[post="167418"][/post]​

aislehopper;

I know you remember that APFA(AA) had a "Benedict Arnold"(John Ward) as it's president, who was DEEPLY "under the covers" with AA mngt.

Bottom line is, "Hotels" premise has a certain amount of validity !!

Regards,
NH/BB's

 

[luvn737s]

You keep suggesting other options that DL looks at (other than cutting pilot salaries) to save money.

What would those be, exactly? Please show me some MEANINGFUL cuts that can be made and will put a significant dent into DL's operating costs.

I'm sure your first reaction is to cut management's pay. Fine - except they probably already have, and even so, I'd doubt you could come up with more than perhaps $10-20M in yearly savings if you hacked away at both pay levels AND cutting jobs from the management ranks.

To be fair, I've ALWAYS been a big supporter of pilots in general, and believe they should keep whatever their union can negotiate for them.

HOWEVER - in today's marketplace, DL pilots' payscales are grossly inflated compared to those at their competitors, and that's a fact.
FACT - The industry average at other carriers for topped-out 777 captains in the U.S. is $200/block hour

FACT - at DL that same topped-out 777 captain makes $320/block hour
FACT - The industry average at other carriers for topped-out 737-800 captains in the U.S. is $171/block hour

FACT - at DL that same topped-out 737-800 captain makes $257/block hour
These disproportionate wages are keeping DL firmly in the red and will prevent the company from returning to profitability.
Source = http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/

[post="167405"][/post]​

Without a viable business plan (DL hasn't proven that they can come up with one, no matter how many CEO's come and go) the best thing long term is for the airline to fold. If they can't make money in the airline business, take that capital and invest in something profitable like coffee shops, quick print places and dry cleaners. To drag this out with a "hotter-colder" game in pursuit of profit doesn't serve anyone. Start a new airline and when it matures and it's costs rise, shut it down and so on, seems to be wave of the future. American's fine for predatory pricing proves that there is little that can be done to defend your hub.

If you think you can milk a little more out of it before it's inevitable demise, go right ahead, but these are the highest wages the industry will ever see. No airline has ever used concession from it's employees to fight back from the brink and survive long-term. They squander the short-term cost advantage only to return later hat-in-hand looking for another employee-sponsored bail-out, promising to try harder next time. If you wouldn't lone your down-and-out brother -in-law money while he refuses to look for a job, then consider carefully agreeing to concessions.

Remember if there is no money to pay employees, there is no money for anyone else, investor, vendor or management.

 

[DLFlyer31]

No airline has ever used concession from it's employees to fight back from the brink and survive long-term.

[post="167461"][/post]​

I guess CAL and HP aren't airlines then.

Obviously, in the case of those two airlines, they did more than just get concessions from employees. But concessions will be one part (note I said PART) of DL's survival plan.

 

[luv2fly]

I guess CAL and HP aren't airlines then.

Obviously, in the case of those two airlines, they did more than just get concessions from employees. But concessions will be one part (note I said PART) of DL's survival plan.

[post="167504"][/post]​

Care to offer any insight on what PART II might be, because not much has been done to date.

 

[FA Mikey]

The fact that you do not respond to my question suggests that you are drinking your own flavor of Kool-Aid to avoid thinking for yourself.

Again, how did your membership in APFA keep you from taking pay and benefit cuts?

[post="167418"][/post]​

It didn't, not anymore than it would have been with you. Although it buys you time and offers alternatives. It a negotiated deal. Not a unilateral company ultimatum. The idea about having a union in that you have a singe voice in theory. That things like pensions and retiree health care can be protected to a greater extent. APFA is far from perfect, but as much can be said about any company, group or even religious organizations. Its just the idea of work group standing together to make a difference in the job, company and their quality of life.

 

[luvn737s]

I guess CAL and HP aren't airlines then.

Obviously, in the case of those two airlines, they did more than just get concessions from employees. But concessions will be one part (note I said PART) of DL's survival plan.

[post="167504"][/post]​

CAL didn't get turned around on concessions. From Worst to First chronicles how Bethune came in and spent MORE than Lorenzo was willing to in order to build a winning airline.

HP never recieved any concessions from it's employees because there was nothing to concede as Doug Parker acknowledged. There was a temporary freeeze on wages during bankruptcy, but as we can see they never capitalized on their low costs to become a bigger or better airline.

More good concessionary money after bad? Look at TWA. Eastern got it's wages down in bankruptcy, but it didn't survive. Did low wages help National survive? Peoples Express? How about Air South, Legend, Tower Air? Nope, Nope, Nope Nope and Nope.

You would think Delta could at least print something on the Song boarding pass to acknowledge the sacrifices of it's employees. For instance, "This $69.00 fare is brought to you courtesy of the pilots pension fund."

 

[aislehopper]

Why waste my time talking union with all of you brainwashed, I will do anything management says, Kool-Aid drinking, non-union Delta employees. No matter what anyone says about unions, you guys just say is "we're better off non-union." CS, you should know better. How is Song treating you? Have you tried out for the tightrope act yet onboard the circus airline?

[post="167409"][/post]​

The fact that you do not respond to my question suggests that you are drinking your own flavor of Kool-Aid to avoid thinking for yourself.

Again, how did your membership in APFA keep you from taking pay and benefit cuts?

[post="167418"][/post]​

Bears and Mikey:

Both of you are rational and understand that there is middle ground in the union/non union debate. Both sides have merit. In our shared past of debating the opposite sides of this issue with each other, we maintained a respect for each other and could agree to disagree. It is nothing personal. (I believe that we have been debating this issue off and on since PlaneBusiness.)

Hotel, on the other hand, posts dogma and then launches into personal attacks - generally using some cliched, hackneyed term like "Kool-Aid" drinker.

I am interested to see if he is capable of comparing and contrasting the facts of the APFA situation with the Delta situation to form a cogent argument that the his APFA position is so superior to my Delta situation that he can justifiably call us stupid.

You two have given him an excellent head start, let's see if he can do it on his own from here.

Best Regards,
ah

 

[luv2fly]

You keep suggesting other options that DL looks at (other than cutting pilot salaries) to save money.

What would those be, exactly? Please show me some MEANINGFUL cuts that can be made and will put a significant dent into DL's operating costs.

I'm sure your first reaction is to cut management's pay. Fine - except they probably already have, and even so, I'd doubt you could come up with more than perhaps $10-20M in yearly savings if you hacked away at both pay levels AND cutting jobs from the management ranks.

To be fair, I've ALWAYS been a big supporter of pilots in general, and believe they should keep whatever their union can negotiate for them.

HOWEVER - in today's marketplace, DL pilots' payscales are grossly inflated compared to those at their competitors, and that's a fact.
FACT - The industry average at other carriers for topped-out 777 captains in the U.S. is $200/block hour

FACT - at DL that same topped-out 777 captain makes $320/block hour
FACT - The industry average at other carriers for topped-out 737-800 captains in the U.S. is $171/block hour

FACT - at DL that same topped-out 737-800 captain makes $257/block hour
These disproportionate wages are keeping DL firmly in the red and will prevent the company from returning to profitability.
Source = http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/

[post="167405"][/post]​

Just curious. Do you work for ASA?