Change your strategy, Davey

[diogenes]

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On 8/2/2003 7:30:04 AM Furloughedagain wrote:

I dont buy it ITrade. I know you're not going to agree but so-called "regional jets" have been around for literally decades.

The Bac-111, DC9-10, BAe146, Fokker 28... they were all "regional jets". When the next generation of RJs came on to the market US Airways had the ability to get as many as they wanted.

They could have darkened the skies with regional jets -- with one caveat. They had to be operated by US Airways employees. I have no doubt in my mind that a fair and reasonable pay/benefit structure could have been developed to allow US Airways employees to fly these airplanes.

Instead of working with your employees though Dave chose to OUTSOURCE the work to the lowest bidder.

Now, when you climb aboard the shiny-new Embraer 145 you may be riding with a first officer who clears only pennies more than $16,000 a year.

$16,000 a year to be an international jet airline pilot. I don't buy it Itrade. The market did not determine that this person should make poverty wages for his highly skilled job. The market didn't determine that the mechanic who worked on that jet should make half what his "mainline" counterpart makes. The skills required are no different. These are highly skilled, highly educated individuals who don't make enough money to support their families.

That is what our jobs have been outsourced to. When you ride in the back of that EMB145, do you ever wonder if the copilot is thinking about how to pay his mortgage this month? How to feed his baby?

Dave did not have to outsource the work. The industry created the so-called "RJ" to allow themselves the flexibility to outsource work to lower paid work groups. US Airways never had a legitimate restriction on the number of RJs that could be flown. All they had to do was sit down with the employees and figure out a pay/benefit scale that would have made it a competitive product.

I'm never going to believe that outsourcing 400 jets worth of flying will make US Airways the kind of "powerhouse" that will require them to buy more Long-haul airplanes and recall the 15,000 furloughed employees.

Maybe Dave will prove me wrong. In the meantime I don't see anyone who benefits from the change. Not the poor regional pilots who fly for poverty wages. Not the poor furloughed employees whose jobs were outsourced to the lowest bidder. Not the US Airways customer who deals with a substandard product/service.

I'm afraid I just cant agree with you right now.

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U inherited F28 payscales that ALPA had negotiated with PI. I'm sure U had negotiated similiar rates for the BAC 111 and the BAE 146's. Those payscales were on the books when MANAGEMENT decided to dump the BAC's, BAE's (good idea) and the F28's (bad idea).

Shortly thereafter, W&G started hollering RJ's, and I know ALPA said, we'll fly all you buy. The ensuing debacle revealed the true plan. As Dave himself said, RJ's are "scopebusters."

 

[RowUnderDCA]

PB and PB-

As I inferred in another thread, I think you may be right, regarding U's motives. (Mind you I have no idea as to whether U is responding to a legitimate problem in the workforce. And I'm not making a comment on that.)

Note that U did not terminate its non-pilot pensions. Considering the age-60 rule, the pilot demographics and the way they are paid, there really isn't any benefit to encourage early pilot retirement.

Also, I suspect that there are some real generational differences in career/salary expectations. I can't imagine that jetBlue's youngish employees really expect to be able to send two kids to college on one jetBlue salary as a FA or agent. I'm not judging, just observing.

Well, here's one judgment call. Changing this has to happen in our political economy as a whole. Working on U isn't going to do it. Consider recent tax cuts on wealth holders, but few tax cuts on wage earners. Consider computer programers having to compete with labor in India and Ireland. So, even the folks that program the kiosks are under threat. What odds do you give the folks that compete with the Kiosks in our society?

All this stuff is happening now, AND there's a good chance that come 2004 the US will be MORE republican. And you continue to think the problem is only at CCY?

Sincere good luck to everyone. I hope things get better.... but I suspect that things are going to have to change, eventually.

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

Any thoughts on the theory? You just hit a "bullseye"!

This mangement has set up an environment that is so harsh to work in, that the employee will fail. The "box" just became tinsy winsy, and everyone is busting out at the seams.

So, folks on here don't believe f/as are coming to work sick??? You've got to get for real.

These f/as are scared out of their minds and have no choice but to either come to work ill (as their sick call is under huge scrutiny, with much harrassment and possible termination) or lose their jobs OR take a huge pay cuts for the sick call. This is employee wide, by the way. This is not getting "rid" of dead wood, but instead mangement's targeting anyone they consider a liability, and that is anyone who calls in sick that may cost them on any level.

As I have stated before, this company has a "nut" for a finance guy, and since this mangement's "handicap" is they can't operate an airline, THE ONLY THING THIS MANGEMENT CAN DO IS REDUCE COSTS UNTIL THEY SHOW A PROFIT.

That's it in a nutshell.

In the meantime, Labor is going crazy, and WE WILL TAKE THIS TO THE STREETS UNTIL IT STOPS.

I told you Bob, I AM ON THE WAR PATH! AFA Labor leaders will kick mangement ### all over the streets until they STOP harrassing and brutalizing our people out the door.

Management has forgotten that the employees MADE this company, SAVED this company, AND ARE the company. WE are a customer service, driven industry.

PEOPLE BUSINESS!

 

[passed_over]

Sales Guy,

The dash may be a little noisier, but it is reliable and operated by reliable operators. We will go down in flames due to them. Regular passengers in cities served by MESA and a WO book there flights around the MESA MESS.

 

[PITbull]

OH, one more thing...

REMEBER, when Siegel was in the hanger last summer and their was a complaint from the floor about mangagers who were heavy handed and treat their employees like "Sh - -!

He said that if there are mangager who behave in this manner, will be removed.

HOW COME THEY ARE STILL HERE?

and ROW,

You are so correct...it has to come from "THE HILL".

 

[ITRADE]

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On 8/2/2003 7:30:04 AM Furloughedagain wrote:

I dont buy it ITrade. I know you're not going to agree but so-called "regional jets" have been around for literally decades.

The Bac-111, DC9-10, BAe146, Fokker 28... they were all "regional jets". When the next generation of RJs came on to the market US Airways had the ability to get as many as they wanted.

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They've been around for a while, but do you think that any reasonable airline would continue to use them today (with the slight exception of the 146)? All three types are/were extremely expensive to operate, were highly inefficient, and would have required Stage III noise upgrades. In fact, if you want a reality check, look around and you'll find that NO U.S. carrier flies them anymore. Horizon and Air Canada could not wait to get rid of them in favor of CRJs or ERJs.

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On 8/2/2003 7:30:04 AM Furloughedagain wrote:

They could have darkened the skies with regional jets -- with one caveat. They had to be operated by US Airways employees. I have no doubt in my mind that a fair and reasonable pay/benefit structure could have been developed to allow US Airways employees to fly these airplanes.

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This the typical US Airways mentality that got it in trouble in the first place. So, you're saying that while American, Delta, United, Contintental, and Northwest were placing RJs with Express, ComAir, Skywest, ExpressJet, and Mesaba, US should have continued to stumble along and fly those aircraft and service those aircraft at mainline rates? Please, get real. US had a cost disadvantage. Doing what you proposed would have made that cost disadvantage twice as extreme.

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On 8/2/2003 7:30:04 AM Furloughedagain wrote:

Instead of working with your employees though Dave chose to OUTSOURCE the work to the lowest bidder.

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Oh, both Dave and Rakesh attempted to work with the employee groups. For example, the pilots signed on to Metrojet. But did the FAs? No. Did the mechanics? No. Did the rampers? No. And this was when US was more healthy. So, don't tel me that you were ready to pony up for the good of the airline because YOUR actions spoke quite clearly of your desires.

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On 8/2/2003 7:30:04 AM Furloughedagain wrote:

Now, when you climb aboard the shiny-new Embraer 145 you may be riding with a first officer who clears only pennies more than $16,000 a year.

$16,000 a year to be an international jet airline pilot. I don't buy it Itrade. The market did not determine that this person should make poverty wages for his highly skilled job. The market didn't determine that the mechanic who worked on that jet should make half what his "mainline" counterpart makes. The skills required are no different. These are highly skilled, highly educated individuals who don't make enough money to support their families.

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Your numbers are bull$hit, pure and simple. RJ right seaters make a lot more than $16k. A trainee on a B-1900 maybe. And I love your little allusion to "an international jet airline pilot." If you want to equate flying PIT-YYZ as international to international being NRT-LAX, feel free to do so.

And, actually, the market did just that. Otherwise, you wouldn't have people accepting those jobs, would they?

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On 8/2/2003 7:30:04 AM Furloughedagain wrote:

That is what our jobs have been outsourced to. When you ride in the back of that EMB145, do you ever wonder if the copilot is thinking about how to pay his mortgage this month? How to feed his baby?

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Yup. And I'm certain that 737 pilots think the same thing from time to time as well.

The fact of the matter is that US was trying desperately to introduce RJs at a time when every other major carrier was doing so with abandon. You argue that US management could have set up scale with the work groups to fly those aircraft. True. However, you've made it quite clear, as have some others, that the rules that would have been imposed would have eliminated every cost advantage that the RJs offer. Every well-known airline analyst knows and agrees that simply having mainline flying the aircraft at mainline line rates, with mainline crews and overhead is absured and eliminates the cost advantage of the RJ.

While AA had 100+ RJs at Eagle and DL had 150+ RJs at ComAir and ASA, US was wallowing about with 35 RJs. Perhaps DL and AA work groups had the foresight to realize that the competition is moving forward; that remaining in the 19th century is counterproductive; and that the days of loading up costs to keep the "old guard" gainfully employed, fat, and happy are over.

 

[ITRADE]

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On 8/2/2003 9:46:48 AM Old PSA wrote:

PHL,

I believe you hit the nail on the head. The airlines that are profitable today, in a down market, are the point to point carriers. The hub carriers are all losing money. Hopefully, someone in corporate will notice this. Hubs cost lots and lots of money to run (and even more money to run well). US needs to re-think its overall basic business strategy. Dump PIT, turn PHL into a non-banked hub, similar to the WN model in PHX or BWI. As to CLT, I don't know, hey, maybe more study. Basically, fly where the money is. If a city doesn't make or contribute enough revenue, drop it. US doesn't have to serve every little city.

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Do you really want to go down that road? If so, take out your atlas index, US route map, and eliminate service to every city with less than 500,000 in population. Looking at WN's map, that's basically what they've done (with the exception of some of the old original Texas cities).

 

[ITRADE]

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On 8/2/2003 645 PM Old PSA wrote:

The world has changed and US must change with it.

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That advice could easily have pertained to RJs - 7 years ago. Clearly some people ignored that advice.

 

[Old PSA]

ITRADE

If it works, yea. What US is doing now sure isn't. No matter how much Dave cuts employees, the cost of doing business the old way is still too much. The public has made their decision, price is most important. People will now drive a hundred miles to save a few dollars on a flight. They will connect 3 or 4 times if it will save a buck. While there still remains a small cadre of business travelers who will pay higher prices for convenience. The problem is it is such a small number and is being chased by too many competitors, no one is carrying enough to make money.

I don't like it and I can only imagine the impact it would have on employees. But what we are doing now and in the foreseeable future (RJs) isn't going to change the dynamics of the marketplace. The world has changed and US must change with it.

 

[skyflyr69]

16,000 a year! thats pretty good if you ask me to start out. Paying passengers could care less what you make.The FAA demands that ALL airlines meet the same minimum standards so there is not much of a difference. The flying public wants cheap fares and if you have to take a cut well tough,welcome to the real world of the market place.
Airlines is a commodity business and you better get use to it. the days of $25.00/hr. cleaners, overpaid mechanics and flight attendants is over. its time the major airlines get labor/headcount costs down to the lowfare carriers like jetblue , SWA, Airtran , Frontier.
when that happens you may have a chance.

 

[skyflyr69]

PHL, excellent post. hopefully airline workers will read it and smell the coffee. the marketplace rules!

 

[ITRADE]

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On 8/2/2003 908 PM skyflyr69 wrote:

16,000 a year! thats pretty good if you ask me to start out. Paying passengers could care less what you make.The FAA demands that ALL airlines meet the same minimum standards so there is not much of a difference. The flying public wants cheap fares and if you have to take a cut well tough,welcome to the real world of the market place.
Airlines is a commodity business and you better get use to it. the days of $25.00/hr. cleaners, overpaid mechanics and flight attendants is over. its time the major airlines get labor/headcount costs down to the lowfare carriers like jetblue , SWA, Airtran , Frontier.
when that happens you may have a chance.

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Good point. Jobs that are in high demand face the reality of supply/demand economics. There is lots of demand for airline pilot seats, hence airlines can pay theoretically pay less and people will still take the jobs.

Another example of this is the resident status that all young doctors have to go through. They're paid very low for medical professionals. They're paid low because there is a plethora of doctors who want to go through their residency and move on to bigger and better things.

 

[wings396]

As far as the Metrojet pay scales, the rampers or MTC were never asked to sign on for a different rate. I can't say weather or not the F/A's were. We need to focus on some more point to point flying as the LCC's do. Prior to the
"Self Destruct" days, both PI and US did plenty of this and even made a profit. There is nothing wrong with the Hubs, but in some cases they can be bypassed. Even after the merger we flew to several non hub cities out of EWR...I will try to list what I can remember. Of course there were the Hubs of PIT, CLT, DAY, BWI and SYR. The others that come to mind are....BOS, BDL, BUF, ROC, IND, CLE, CMH, ORF, RIC, GSO, RDU, CAE, JAX, and CHS. I am sure that I forgot a few, but these were all mainline flights that carried near 140K passengers a month...now there is PIT and CLT taking maybe 25-30K a month..were did they all go?

 

[LavMan]

skyflyr, no cleaners ever made more then $19 an hour, $25 is absurd, considering a mechanic at US made $28 base pay for keeping $100 million airplanes safe and flying before concessions.

Also, Southwest is the highest unionized airline and their employees make more then the rest of the industry, a topped out mechanic makes $42 an hour. Try go get some real facts before you post. Also they do not employ ANY part-time ramp employees and they are paid over $20 an hour.

 

[PITbull]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

PITBULL, I DELETED YOUR COMMENT FOR A REASON.

DO NOT REPOST IT.

DON'T MAKE ME MAKE YOU GO AWAY.