catholic church

[Leto2]

I'm curious, what is God's true church? I mean, there are interpretations all the time - if God says your body is his temple, some folks mitgh interpret that to mean that you don't foul his temple with alcohol, drugs or tobacco. If someone is concerned about sins of the flesh, they might interpret that to mean that dancing is out because it tempts "vile" thoughts. If everybody quit any church because they didn't agree with some of their rules, there'd be an awful lot of empty churches in this country.

Using your logic, the Catholic church says it's a sin to use birth control, but I do - do I quit the church because I disagree with their stanc or ought I stop doing so?

Using my logic:
* If you think that the Catholic church is wrong in say that, then you ought to find a church that doesn't teach wrong things. Yes, you ought to quit the church.
* If you think that the Catholic leaders are really sent from God, then you ought to stop using birth control.

You know, I don't know your religion...would you care to let me in on that? I've told you that I am Catholic. So what are you? Does your church teach "the full truth"? But I'd have to ask - what church (in your opinion) was the first to recognize Jesus Christ? I mean the protestant churches really didn't come into being until many of the founders of those religions broke from the Catholic church? You seem to be hung up on the "God's church" part of things....how about if we call it St Peter's church? Or do you not believe in saints?

I'm afraid that if I tell you what church I belong to, this will just turn into me trying to defend everything I believe in and you trying to defend everything you believe in, etc. etc. That will get us nowhere.

My intent is only to say that logically there can only be one true church, and that we should pray and use God's guidance to find it.
If you would like to know what church I belong to and discuss particular doctrine further (including what you said about Peter above), go to AircraftGuru.com and click on "contact us". That will send me an email and then we can further discuss by email. (I'd put my email here but I don't want any more spam than I already get.) I'd be happy to discuss stuff with you, I just don't think this forum is the proper environment. Make sense? I also don't want people on this forum associating my political views with my church. My church tends to stay out of politics except for rare occasions (although they encourage us to vote for good leaders who we believe are good people, etc.).

 

[KCFlyer]

I'm afraid that if I tell you what church I belong to, this will just turn into me trying to defend everything I believe in and you trying to defend everything you believe in, etc. etc. That will get us nowhere.

So...it's better that YOU get the Catholics to defend their faith instead of opening a dialogue. You don't agree with the Catholic church - that's great - here's some news for you. When my dad passed away, the priest at my church didn't say he was sorry he was going to hell because he wasn't part of "God's church". We pretty much try to recognize that those CORE BELIEFS are the same

You've already shown that you have a great disdain for the Catholic church, because in almost every post, you have cited 'God's Church'. Why should that even matter to you? I mean, I know of few in my congregation who would cite themselves as belonging to "God's Church"...they just call themselves Catholics. In fact, the days where that was an issue - and it WAS an issue when mom and dad got marrie back in the 50's are long gone. Today, it's not at all uncommon to have Priests speak at a Protestant church and Protestant ministers speak at a Catholic church.

 

[Garfield1966]

KC,

Let me start out by saying I am sorry if I insulted your personal faith. That was not my intent and if I did I am sorry. Now having said that let me try and explain my thoughts on this.

If everybody quit any church because they didn't agree with some of their rules, there'd be an awful lot of empty churches in this country.

I am not so sure that this would be a bad thing. I do not so much have a problem with people believing in what every they choose, as I do with the organizations them selves. The Catholic church is an organization with quite a colorful past. Their silence during WWII and the assistance they gave the Nazi criminals after the war, and their inaction with the pedophilia are just two instances that I find revolting.

Faith, or lack there of should be a personal thing in my opinion. Should I choose to pray, why do I need an church or anyone/anything to help me. I just find a quite place and I pray. Religion in this country has become a business just like AA or Wal-mart it seems. Yes there are exceptions but for the most part, it seems to be about control and proving who is right. I like the idea the Amish have. No church, just go to a house and there you go. Very simple and it seems, much more sincere.

Personally I do not care what the Vatican’s view on gays is. I am neither gay nor catholic so it does not affect me. What I question, is why would a gay want to be a catholic? It’s alike a jew wanting to join the neo-nazis or a black wanting join the KKK. A gays life style is not accepted by the Vatican so why join? I don’t understand the Log Cabin republicans for the same reason but that is a different thread.

I am with Leto on this I think. Religion in my view is an all or nothing deal. You either accept all the beliefs of a religion or you don’t. We are not buying a car where you can delete certain options and add others. Being a catholic and using birth control. Ummmm … Nope, that does not work.

If everyone would stop worrying about what to call them selves and just believe what they want to believe, live their life to the best of their ability the wold would be a much better place. I do not believe anyone has the ‘true answer’. People have their interpretation. That’s as good as it gets. Everyone might have a small piece of a very big puzzle or we might all be wrong. Why worry about if you are catholic, babtist, lutheran, jewish, musslem, hindu, amish, buddist or what ever.

Not sure if any of this makes sense. It is a bit of stream of thought so it may not be very clear.

 

[Leto2]

Leto...let me ask you this, because I watched a "religious kids show" on TV in Dallas several years ago. They had a character named "Gospel Bill", and it was a production of a fundamentalist religion. In that show, they had a little bible quiz for the kids, and on that episode they were quizzing them on the 10 commandments. They asked a question, and the goal was to get the answer of the 5th commandment. A sweet little girl smiled and said "Honor your mother and father". The host loudly proclaimed WRONG, then asked a boy (with a rather puzzled look on his face) what HIS answer was. The boy, after a moments pause, and still possessing that quizical look on his face said "Honor your father and mother", at which point the host said "Correct...remember in the bible the MAN IS FIRST". Now, I disagree mightily with that stance, and I guess that's why I don't belong that that particular religion. Was the host right or wrong?

I disagree with what the host said. (He's wrong.)

Here's the basics of what I as a Catholic believe:
.....

And basically, THAT's what I heard in the Methodist church, but feel free to point out differences that you feel are major. In that, there isn't anything about birth control or priests marrying. And I believe what those words describe. So, should I quit the church or not?

Hmm, so does that Catholic church think that birth control is ok or does it not? That was the issue. Whether your quote includes that or not doesn't seem relevant. The Catholic church believes and teaches a lot more than what's in your quote. The quote states their belief about God, but the church teaches much more than that.

 

[Leto2]

Faith, or lack there of should be a personal thing in my opinion. Should I choose to pray, why do I need an church or anyone/anything to help me. I just find a quite place and I pray. Religion in this country has become a business just like AA or Wal-mart it seems. Yes there are exceptions but for the most part, it seems to be about control and proving who is right. I like the idea the Amish have. No church, just go to a house and there you go. Very simple and it seems, much more sincere.

Personally I do not care what the Vatican’s view on gays is. I am neither gay nor catholic so it does not affect me. What I question, is why would a gay want to be a catholic? It’s alike a jew wanting to join the neo-nazis or a black wanting join the KKK. A gays life style is not accepted by the Vatican so why join? I don’t understand the Log Cabin republicans for the same reason but that is a different thread.

(What's a Log Cabin republican?)

I am with Leto on this I think. Religion in my view is an all or nothing deal. You either accept all the beliefs of a religion or you don’t. We are not buying a car where you can delete certain options and add others. Being a catholic and using birth control. Ummmm … Nope, that does not work.

If everyone would stop worrying about what to call them selves and just believe what they want to believe, live their life to the best of their ability the wold would be a much better place. I do not believe anyone has the ‘true answer’. People have their interpretation. That’s as good as it gets. Everyone might have a small piece of a very big puzzle or we might all be wrong. Why worry about if you are catholic, babtist, lutheran, jewish, musslem, hindu, amish, buddist or what ever.

Not sure if any of this makes sense. It is a bit of stream of thought so it may not be very clear.

It makes sense. But I'd like to tell you why I think it's important to belong to the true church.

1. True church will help you live all of God's commandments and thereby help you make more personal progression during this life (God's commandments help us get closer to perfect like Him, which is progression).

2. True church has authority to act in God's name. This means that the true church can provide any ordinance (like baptism) that may be required to return to him.

3. The true church has leaders that will deliver God's word that He wants us to hear today. Moses, Isaiah, Peter, etc.--the true church will have someone similar. If we know what God wants us to do, then we can go in the right direction and live better lives (better than what you can do on your own).

I'm sure there are other reasons too.

How do you find the true church? Well you can eliminate churches that are obviously corrupt, like what you mentioned in your post. You can pray to God for guidance. You can research, read, talk to people, etc. You can search the New Testament and find the characteristics of the church that Christ formed. The most important thing you can do is pray and search with true intent and an open heart.

I agree that all churches have a piece of the puzzle. I believe that there's one church that has it all. Whether you believe that or not, that's your decision, but I encourage you to try to find out by doing what I mentioned above.

 

[KCFlyer]

I disagree with what the host said. (He's wrong.)
Hmm, so does that Catholic church think that birth control is ok or does it not? That was the issue. Whether your quote includes that or not doesn't seem relevant. The Catholic church believes and teaches a lot more than what's in your quote. The quote states their belief about God, but the church teaches much more than that.

The core beliefs are there. But what church should I belong to?

Methodists don't believe in drinking - they're out
Baptists don't believe in Dancing - can't belong to that one
Fundamantalists of any religion - I don't take the bible literally because I don't believe that everything that is written in the bible was meant to be followed literally - I mean, if you really want to follow it to the letter, don't ever get your hair cut.

If I must believe EVERYTHING in order to belong to a religion, then I guess I'd better quit going to any church. Is it okay to sill believe in God then? I guess I can, because the fourth commandment just says not to work on the Sabbath, but nothing about going to church.

What I actually believe isn't taught in any church - they are my interpretations, just as what Catholics teach is the interpretation of the pope, just as whay Lutherns, Episcopalians or Presbyterians are interpreted from they synods, just as the Baptists are from what's interpreted from their convention.

But I belong to the Catholic Church because I believe in their core teachings. As another poster said, much of why we believe what we believe is "faith". It doesn't mean you have to go along with every stance in the church. There are bishops and cardinals that can debate the churches stance - should they quit the church too? So let's just chalk it up to faith and the beauty and symbolism of the mass, okay?

 

[Gilding the Lily]

(What's a Log Cabin republican?)
It makes sense. But I'd like to tell you why I think it's important to belong to the true church.

1. True church will help you live all of God's commandments and thereby help you make more personal progression during this life (God's commandments help us get closer to perfect like Him, which is progression).

2. True church has authority to act in God's name. This means that the true church can provide any ordinance (like baptism) that may be required to return to him.

3. The true church has leaders that will deliver God's word that He wants us to hear today. Moses, Isaiah, Peter, etc.--the true church will have someone similar. If we know what God wants us to do, then we can go in the right direction and live better lives (better than what you can do on your own).

I'm sure there are other reasons too.

How do you find the true church? Well you can eliminate churches that are obviously corrupt, like what you mentioned in your post. You can pray to God for guidance. You can research, read, talk to people, etc. You can search the New Testament and find the characteristics of the church that Christ formed. The most important thing you can do is pray and search with true intent and an open heart.

I agree that all churches have a piece of the puzzle. I believe that there's one church that has it all. Whether you believe that or not, that's your decision, but I encourage you to try to find out by doing what I mentioned above.

I think you are all hopeless. Regarding religion, not one person on this board will change their stance. Whether we acknowledge it or not, we are all stubborn on this board. Sure, go ahead and fling your religious posts about the 'true church' or contraceptives; but the issue is more or less moot because not one person on this board will reconsider their position.

With that said, I might as well tell you my opinion, even though it is moot. This is your cue to tell me I am a hypocrite now.

I belong to a non-affiliated, non-denominational church. It is comprised of only 1 church; it is not a collection of churches. We have a limited set of core-beliefs that most individuals adhere to. For example, we all believe in the savior (Christ), the resurrection, the trinity. Basically, we believe in the gospel story. If the Bible does not take a direct stance against an activity (as it does for murder, stealing, or lying) then my church does not make that decision for the church-goers. That is a decision between you and God and the church does not need to act as an intermediary between you and God; you can access Him by yourself. This goes for things like contraceptive, alcohol consumption, and political parties.

Of course, the leaders of the church would give you guidance and tell you their opinion; but it is still a decision that is to be made between you and God. He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit for a reason; that reason was to allow a direct connection with God.

Lastly, we believe that the "true church" is the collection of believers that are saved by God's grace. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Amish, or anything else. As long as you truly believe and have faith in the death, resurrection, and atonement for our sins.

I am NOT suggesting that ALL Catholics, Baptist, etc. are part of the so-called 'true church' and will spend eternity in Heaven, as I am fully aware that many people in all those churches are not truly believers. Your salvation is dependent on a decision YOU made, not a decision the church or your parents made for you.

Ok, before I begin to sound like 700 (club), I am going to quit.

 

[local 12 proud]

Europe doesn't present much of a challenge for Jihadis. Both the secularists and the Catholic church appear fully committed to implosion.

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read...le.asp?ID=25409

 

[KCFlyer]

Europe doesn't present much of a challenge for Jihadis. Both the secularists and the Catholic church appear fully committed to implosion.

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read...le.asp?ID=25409

I forgot...should I shoot my Muslim neighbors? Get over it local12. If you'd like, I slap myself for being a member of a religion that is tolerant of others. YOur link is, shall I say, a bit right leaning...it's stuff like that which gives many the impression that the right wing is the wing of hate.

 

[Leto2]

The core beliefs are there. But what church should I belong to?

Methodists don't believe in drinking - they're out
Baptists don't believe in Dancing - can't belong to that one
Fundamantalists of any religion - I don't take the bible literally because I don't believe that everything that is written in the bible was meant to be followed literally - I mean, if you really want to follow it to the letter, don't ever get your hair cut.

If I must believe EVERYTHING in order to belong to a religion, then I guess I'd better quit going to any church. Is it okay to sill believe in God then? I guess I can, because the fourth commandment just says not to work on the Sabbath, but nothing about going to church.

What I actually believe isn't taught in any church - they are my interpretations, just as what Catholics teach is the interpretation of the pope, just as whay Lutherns, Episcopalians or Presbyterians are interpreted from they synods, just as the Baptists are from what's interpreted from their convention.

But I belong to the Catholic Church because I believe in their core teachings. As another poster said, much of why we believe what we believe is "faith". It doesn't mean you have to go along with every stance in the church. There are bishops and cardinals that can debate the churches stance - should they quit the church too? So let's just chalk it up to faith and the beauty and symbolism of the mass, okay?

Maybe you're going about this the wrong way. Maybe first you need to find the true church through prayer and scripture study. Then once you know that it is true (since God can tell you through the Holy Ghost), you will have the desire to follow that church's teachings (because you'll then know they are God's teachings) and you will change or not change your views regarding drinking, dancing, birth control, etc.

Or, you quit the church. I think that professing to belong to a church with which you don't agree is just wrong and illogical.

Bishops and Cardinals shouldn't be able to debate the church's stance. In my church, there is a leader that is inspired of God. What he says goes. We believe that since this is the way it is, God wouldn't allow him to lead us astray. Now, you may say, "if he tells you to jump off a cliff or drink poison cool-aid would you?" That won't ever happen. "But what if it did?" It won't. And we are encouraged not to just believe what he says because he says it, but also to pray to God for confirmation of what he says.
If a person in our church begins to teach "false doctrine", doctrine that isn't aligned with the church's teachings, they are corrected. If they continue, they are excommunicated. They are then free to start their own church if they want, or they can return to us later on. This way everyone's on the same page. This isn't a church of opinions about the laws of God, it's a church of order.
(I'm simplifying this, it looks extreme but it really isn't. It's not like there are excommunications everytime someone sins or something. I don't personally know anyone that's been excommunicated.)

I think you are all hopeless. Regarding religion, not one person on this board will change their stance. Whether we acknowledge it or not, we are all stubborn on this board. Sure, go ahead and fling your religious posts about the 'true church' or contraceptives; but the issue is more or less moot because not one person on this board will reconsider their position.

You're probably correct. But you never know.

I belong to a non-affiliated, non-denominational church. It is comprised of only 1 church; it is not a collection of churches. We have a limited set of core-beliefs that most individuals adhere to. For example, we all believe in the savior (Christ), the resurrection, the trinity. Basically, we believe in the gospel story. If the Bible does not take a direct stance against an activity (as it does for murder, stealing, or lying) then my church does not make that decision for the church-goers. That is a decision between you and God and the church does not need to act as an intermediary between you and God; you can access Him by yourself. This goes for things like contraceptive, alcohol consumption, and political parties.

Of course, the leaders of the church would give you guidance and tell you their opinion; but it is still a decision that is to be made between you and God. He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit for a reason; that reason was to allow a direct connection with God.

Lastly, we believe that the "true church" is the collection of believers that are saved by God's grace. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Amish, or anything else. As long as you truly believe and have faith in the death, resurrection, and atonement for our sins.

I am NOT suggesting that ALL Catholics, Baptist, etc. are part of the so-called 'true church' and will spend eternity in Heaven, as I am fully aware that many people in all those churches are not truly believers. Your salvation is dependent on a decision YOU made, not a decision the church or your parents made for you.

This again defies logic in my opinion. I agree that even in what I call "true church" not everyone will be saved. But to say that all these people with conflicting beliefs will receive the same reward is just illogical to me--given that God cannot lie. However, I think that this opinion "sounds good" and that's why so many people choose your road these days (and because searching for the truth is hard). I don't mean to offend or say that your belief is dumb, this is just my opinion, respectfully.

 

[local 12 proud]

I forgot...should I shoot my Muslim neighbors?

Absolutely not KC, You should appease them like a good liberal smoking, drinking, hedonistic catholic choir boy.

Get over it local12. If you'd like, I slap myself for being a member of a religion that is tolerant of others.

Jesus never taught passivity nor an alternate path, you better re-read your Holy bible.

YOur link is, shall I say, a bit right leaning...it's stuff like that which gives many the impression that the right wing is the wing of hate.

The Truth is never popular, Jesus said we would be hated and despised for his names sake.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

This again defies logic in my opinion. I agree that even in what I call "true church" not everyone will be saved. But to say that all these people with conflicting beliefs will receive the same reward is just illogical to me--given that God cannot lie. However, I think that this opinion "sounds good" and that's why so many people choose your road these days (and because searching for the truth is hard). I don't mean to offend or say that your belief is dumb, this is just my opinion, respectfully.

I am not offended easily. I have often pondered your opinion. But I believe that is why it is called grace... it is extended to us whether our non-core beliefs are slightly jaded. No one is perfect except God; thus, I believe even the Church has faults, as the church is made up of men. Thus, there is not one Church that has everything right.

When you say 'conflicting beliefs', I am not entirely sure what you mean. If you have conflicting beliefs as to the road to salvation, then I think that only one of those beliefs will receive the 'reward'. But if the conflicting beliefs is regarding whether you drink a beer, sit in a pew rather than a chair, or use a hymnal, then I don't think it really matters... as long as your core beliefs and faith regarding salvation through the cross are correct.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

I am not offended easily. I have often pondered your opinion. But I believe that is why it is called grace... it is extended to us whether our non-core beliefs are slightly jaded. No one is perfect except God; thus, I believe even the Church has faults, as the church is made up of men. Thus, there is not one Church that has everything right.

When you say 'conflicting beliefs', I am not entirely sure what you mean. If you have conflicting beliefs as to the road to salvation, then I think that only one will recieve the 'reward'. But if the conflicting beliefs is regarding whether you drink a beer, sit in a pew rather than a chair, or use a hymnal, then I don't think it really matters... as long as your core beliefs and faith regarding salvation through the cross are correct.

Oh... I think there are 'correct' beliefs regarding non-core beliefs. And yes, they matter; I just don't think those non-core beliefs are determinative of your salvation.

 

[KCFlyer]

In my church, there is a leader that is inspired of God. What he says goes. We believe that since this is the way it is, God wouldn't allow him to lead us astray.

Oddly enough, we have a guy like that in my church. We call him the Pope.

Now, you may say, "if he tells you to jump off a cliff or drink poison cool-aid would you?" That won't ever happen. "But what if it did?" It won't. And we are encouraged not to just believe what he says because he says it, but also to pray to God for confirmation of what he says.

Again, it sounds like the Pope.

If a person in our church begins to teach "false doctrine", doctrine that isn't aligned with the church's teachings, they are corrected. If they continue, they are excommunicated. They are then free to start their own church if they want, or they can return to us later on.

That is pretty much how the Lutheran and Episcopalian churches got started.

I actually question the existance of Hell. I think our life here on earth is hell, and that if one follows the ten commandments, tries to live a good life, and can take time in a bit of reflection to acknowledge that they have sinned and ask forgiveness, then God will forgive. It's not taught in many churches, but in too many cases, we condemn people to hell because a body of men we call a church has interpreted the writings of other men (God might have "written" the bible, but it's been reinterpreted over the centuries) and deemed them unworthy to see God.

 

[Leto2]

Oddly enough, we have a guy like that in my church. We call him the Pope. Again, it sounds like the Pope.

Yes, but when your leaders get together and vote on how to interpret the bible (like the Nicene Creed) and it is not unanimous, then it seems to me like there are a lot of different beliefs in your church. From talking to many Catholics, it seems like many of them believe different things.

I actually question the existance of Hell. I think our life here on earth is hell, and that if one follows the ten commandments, tries to live a good life, and can take time in a bit of reflection to acknowledge that they have sinned and ask forgiveness, then God will forgive. It's not taught in many churches, but in too many cases, we condemn people to hell because a body of men we call a church has interpreted the writings of other men (God might have "written" the bible, but it's been reinterpreted over the centuries) and deemed them unworthy to see God.

That's a VERY dangerous belief--questioning the existence of Hell. Don't you think that's exactly what satan would want you to do? If there is no hell, then it's really not too important to be righteous. If we'll all be saved anyways, then why not live however we want? (Of course, people that live however they want aren't truly happy, but still, no Hell means no consequences.)

God is a God of mercy, but He's also a God of Justice. Just because some churches interpret the bible wrong doesn't mean that all do.