Boston mechanic Gets CDD for ground damage

[AANOTOK]

Unfortunately it is a good habit that while it does you credit, the company shamelessly exploits.

I would agree with that Zom 100%

 

[xUT]

It's this simple -- the chances of getting fired or even written up for refusing to operate a piece of equipment that you're not qualified to operate are slim to none.

If local management doesn't accommodate the training that's required by corporate policy, then it's on local management when airplanes don't move.

It's the same thing with operating a piece of equipment that's missing seat belts, a parking brake, etc... If it's unsafe, refuse it. Step aside and let the supervisor drive it if he thinks he's qualified without having ever been trained...

I have been there a few times at UA.
Supervisor tries to intimidate someone to clear an item that does not meet company and FAA requirements for return to service.
All supervisors have their own 'airman's certificate'.
When challenged that 'you sign it off', it becomes moot.
Stand your ground guys N'Gals.
Make sure it's not your butt swinging in the wind.
Been there, done that, no t-shirt...
B) xUT

 

[eolesen]

I have no problems with above and beyond, but even for the over-achievers, there are some lines you can't cross and some rules you can't break.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 
Isn't that really management's responsibility to prevent that person from getting that position or to remove them if they are incompetent? Seniority only makes somone next in line to put in for a position. It doesn't guarantee it. The union provides for due process. It doesn't make these people invincible.
 
Isn't that due to lazy management? If someone is a danger, management should be on them whether they have 6 months or 30 years.
 
And where is management when this is going on? I have seen several crew chiefs get their "wings clipped" and be demoted. Some while on probation and some who weren't. One was a CC for several years and had high seniority. That didn't stop them from demoting him.
 
The company does have a mechanism. Write them up for their incompetence and demote them. Of course the union will defend them, but if the company presents a valid case, they can and will demote them. 
 
Either somone is qualified for their job or they aren't. Seniority has nothing to do with that.
 
Seniority isn't perfect, but then again no system is. It is certainly preferable to favoritism.

Management did not give a damn. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

When in fact all that is required is to punch in on time, then do as little as humanly possible in the space between, punch out, get your paycheck and head to the house.

What happened to the American (I don't mean the airline) way of working hard and going above and beyond - the attitude of there is always someone who tries hard is disappointing

Some of us were just brought up that way and it's one hell of a habit to break!  B)

Unfortunately it is a good habit that while it does you credit, the company shamelessly exploits.

I would agree with that Zom 100%

This is a by product of working in a UNION shop. Ambition, skill level, efficiency, all these mean nothing in a shop that only recognizes a seniority date. Working hard under these conditions can only backfire because hard work sure as hell is not going to be rewarded.
 
There is no reward for effort.... there is only "putting in the time".
 
The only reward I have ever seen for working hard and efficiently in a UNION shop is........ surprise surprise..... more work. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Now you are getting it. Today's UNIONS love inefficiency. The more people it takes to do a job the more dues they can stick in their pocket. 
 
In a UNION like TWU you are punished for being a good worker. That is by design. 
 
Sounds like you are getting smarter.

Its not the Union issuing the punishment, its the company.

I see this as the continuation of the war this management team has started against Mechanics since they were at NWA. However even with their West Point training they may have missed the fact that although we are extremely demoralized and not quite unified the conditions in the market for mechanics, their resource to wage war, is very much different than it was in 2005. At NWA mechanics fell into their trap by walking, we will stay and do everything they tell us they want done, they way they write down to do it, not the way their management team tells us to do it. Right now their actions are taking out those who bend the rules to get things done for them, they are doing more to unify the workforce than the Union could ever hope to accomplish. In the end it will mean more mechanics per airplane on the line, like US has and that demand will be in places where AA's wage structure is uncompetitive.

 

[skydrol]

Here is the bottom line, the rules used to be you had to have qualifications on towing and it really was vague about the push tractors. A while ago there was a read and sign that stated you had to have not only the towing qualification but the tractor you use must also be in your record. These are the same ancient tractors that have been around since the 80's . A person who has been using this equipment for the last 25 years or so now is not "qualified". So gentlemen take the time to go to your training record and make sure the make and model of whatever you are going to operate is there or else you are exposing yourself to undue risk. Sounds stupid since you have been using the equipment for years but if it is not in you record you are not qualified. The beatings will continue till moral improves.

 

[OgieJFK]

So you are telling me that the person driving the bus and servicing lavs had lower seniority than the ones throwing bags?
 
Granted I worked at a maintenance base and not the line but I have always been told those are "higher level" positions on the line. I know where I came from bus drivers had high seniority.
 
My conclusion may have been incorrect but it was made from both personal experience and word of mouth from long time employees.

Yes that is what I am telling you. Both jobs, expect morning shift, were junior jobs at JFK. The only thing that held one back from driving the bus was that you needed a Class B drivers license. The only other job at JFK that a FSC needed a Class B was the freight transfer truck which was also a junior job. Class B drivers license were needed for these jobs cause they drove on city roads and not the airport field. Its cool dude....I know each station is run vastly different from the next.

 

[OgieJFK]

We have had bus drivers at TULE that were not qualified to drive the bus (due to incompetence). They were too busy talking on their cell phone and not paying attention that they damn near hit several people. 
 
I would also ask you how many idiots out there call themselves crew chiefs simply because of their seniority date. 
 
I may have missed the mark by assuming (though an educated assumption) that the FSC had high seniority but I still stand by what I said. Putting people in technical and leadership positions they are not qualified for is wrong.
 
I would like to correct you on something. I am not anti-UNION. I am anti-TWU. I have actually signed an AMP card and I support AMFA. Now we have both made incorrect assumptions.
 
Have a nice day OgieJFK. 🙂

Incompetent workers has nothing really to do with seniority. That is mostly a lazy management issue. I've run across my fair share of CCs that were idiots. It didn't matter if they were senior or junior..the only thing they had in common were they were idiots and AA management passed them on the CC test.

"Putting people in technical and leadership positions they are not qualified for is wrong"...Once again that isn't a seniority issue it is a management issue. Being senior will get them first shot at the spot but they still have to pass the CC test. That test is given by AA management and not the TWU.

There is no need to correct me on anything and I assumed nothing. You can sit there all day and tell me how union you are but the some of the stuff you've typed on this web forum is anti-union. I'm glad you're anti-TWU as you should be since being laid off by AA with the TWU's help. I forgot but was it AA or the TWU that you tried to get retraining from but was denied since the program only applied to AMTs?  As for the AMP....I've never heard of them. If it was setup exactly like AMFA is then signing a card means crap cause you were a FSC.

As for supporting AMFA on this forum it might get you a couple of thumbs up but you support them in name only. You've stated repeatably on these forums you don't believe in seniority and better benefits (PENSIONS) are a dirty word. One of the big things that AMFA (really any good union) tries to get for their membership and you seem to be against it by most of you're recent post. Going by your post i'm not assuming anything about you. You've wrote it, you live with it.

Truthfully, I'm glad not to be in a union with guys like you anymore with the anti-labor/union thoughts. You'd fit in real well with  most of the people at JFK cargo. Instead of knocking what other union people are getting and bringing them down to the AA TWU pay and benefits grow a pair and start fighting to rise up to what they are getting.

 

[OgieJFK]

We seemed to have worked at two vastly different company's. In my experiences it had always came down to if management liked you.  The local TWU had some input too...but lets not BS here they were and are paper tigers. I'll give you three real life examples and you tell me which should have been a CDD...

A) A guy thats been thru the program twice gets himself and another employee injured cause he decided to use an out of service tug and was "racing" another employee back to the break room. He decided to drive behind an aircraft that was taxing in. The jet wash lifted the hood and hit both employees. The driver got a concussion and the passenger was paralyzed from the neck down. What saved the driver was the steering wheel.

B ) A FSC that drove the employee bus ran over and killed a person in the hanger parking lot. This person had numerous accidents with AA owned vehicles. Off the top of my head he ran over the aircrafts fuelers line and caused a big fuel spill and drove away with the crap trucks hose still connected to the plane.

C) A FSC with no accidents, IODs, great attendance... this FSC leaves his freight on the gate and puts the tow bar into the locked position. Unbeknown to the FSC was that tho the tow bar went into the brake position the brakes were worn and never engaged. Another employee bumped into the string and it hit the plane.

Out of these three incidents whom do you think was up for a CDD?

Since it was sidestepped....

A) Never was piss tested or written up. He returned to work in a couple of days. This guy had maybe 4-5 years on the job at the time. Management liked him.

B ) Never was piss tested or written up. He was taken out of service for the rest of the day when he killed the guy. This guy had like 6 years when he killed the guy. Management loved him.

C) Was piss tested and put on a CDD. The incident was used as a poster child for a safety memo. This employee had almost 20 years on the job. Management disliked the guy.

 

[Bob Owens]

Since it was sidestepped....
A) Never was piss tested or written up. He returned to work in a couple of days. This guy had maybe 4-5 years on the job at the time. Management liked him.
B ) Never was piss tested or written up. He was taken out of service for the rest of the day when he killed the guy. This guy had like 6 years when he killed the guy. Management loved him.
C) Was piss tested and put on a CDD. The incident was used as a poster child for a safety memo. This employee had almost 20 years on the job. Management disliked the guy.

Or in the first two people were maimed and killed, but they are cheap to replace but in the last there was aircraft damage.

 

[Topcat187]

Its not the Union issuing the punishment, its the company.

I see this as the continuation of the war this management team has started against Mechanics since they were at NWA. However even with their West Point training they may have missed the fact that although we are extremely demoralized and not quite unified the conditions in the market for mechanics, their resource to wage war, is very much different than it was in 2005. At NWA mechanics fell into their trap by walking, we will stay and do everything they tell us they want done, they way they write down to do it, not the way their management team tells us to do it. Right now their actions are taking out those who bend the rules to get things done for them, they are doing more to unify the workforce than the Union could ever hope to accomplish. In the end it will mean more mechanics per airplane on the line, like US has and that demand will be in places where AA's wage structure is uncompetitive.

 
 
Yes, they are a bright group of managers, that's why Delta didn't keep them around when NWA and DL merged.

 

[Zom JFK]

Management did not give a damn. 

 
And that is where the problem lies. Not with seniority.
 

This is a by product of working in a UNION shop. Ambition, skill level, efficiency, all these mean nothing in a shop that only recognizes a seniority date. Working hard under these conditions can only backfire because hard work sure as hell is not going to be rewarded.
 
There is no reward for effort.... there is only "putting in the time".
 
The only reward I have ever seen for working hard and efficiently in a UNION shop is........ surprise surprise..... more work. 

 
And what is the reward in a non union shop? The agents I knew that got let go would do anything for that company. Their reward was to be let go.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

"Putting people in technical and leadership positions they are not qualified for is wrong"...Once again that isn't a seniority issue it is a management issue. Being senior will get them first shot at the spot but they still have to pass the CC test. That test is given by AA management and not the TWU.

I have never seen the crew chief test but I have seen some awfully stupid ass people put into crew chief positions. If that test has such a low standard that it allows the company to put unqualified people in positions of authority then the UNION should damn well get involved. Yet, they never did, at least not where I worked.
 

You can sit there all day and tell me how union you are but the some of the stuff you've typed on this web forum is anti-union. I'm glad you're anti-TWU as you should be since being laid off by AA with the TWU's help. I forgot but was it AA or the TWU that you tried to get retraining from but was denied since the program only applied to AMTs?  As for the AMP....I've never heard of them. If it was setup exactly like AMFA is then signing a card means crap cause you were a FSC.

Everybody on here has their own idea of what UNION really is. In my opinion UNIONS have lost their way. They have become more about pushing a political agenda than representing their members. You should not fault me because my definition of UNION is not the same as yours. The truth is if UNIONS are going to survive in the private sector they need to reinvent themselves.
 
I am not upset I got laid off. It was hardly unexpected. I made plans long before I got laid off to leave AA anyway. I will not go into detail why I am upset with the TWU on open forums. If you are curious send me a PM and I will explain to you why I feel the way I do.
 
You are incorrect about the retraining. The retraining was a government program designed for workers who's jobs were impacted by offshoring of jobs. I actually worked hands on many of the aircraft American outsourced. The fact is they did not JUST offer it to the AMT's. They offered it to alot of workers, including people from Temp Services. I know this for a fact because they made training available for employees of Accounting Principles which ironically is how I got my start at American Airlines. So American Airlines saw fit to retrain paper pushers that worked for a temp service but saw no need to retrain it's own employees that actually had hands on aircraft.  The TWU did not do a damn thing because they don't care. They were happy to be rid of Fleet. After all why would a mechanics local care about 108 FSC's? 
 
AMP was a grass roots effort to start a UNION of ONLY American Airlines employees. I honestly think having a UNION of ONLY American Airlines employees is a better way to go than AMFA, but AMFA is what is gaining steam.
 

As for supporting AMFA on this forum it might get you a couple of thumbs up but you support them in name only. You've stated repeatably on these forums you don't believe in seniority and better benefits (PENSIONS) are a dirty word. One of the big things that AMFA (really any good union) tries to get for their membership and you seem to be against it by most of you're recent post. Going by your post i'm not assuming anything about you. You've wrote it, you live with it.

I can only support them in name that is true. But that is better than say 700UW, who comes on here and criticizes them. I think everybody on here pretty much knows I say whatever I think regardless of if it is popular or not. If I say I support AMFA you should believe me and not criticize my support. 
 
I think seniority acts as a form of entrapment. The reason AA mechanics do not go to work somewhere else is because of the "GOLDEN HANDCUFFS" of seniority. Seniority would be much better if it was portable to other carriers. I am hoping eventually AMFA will make that possible. Then if airlines want GOOD mechanics they will have to compete for them instead of just cutting pay and benefits because they know most likely their experienced mechanics are seniority locked and are not going anywhere.  I also do not like seeing obviously unqualified people getting positions or jobs because of seniority. What can I say? I have had bad experiences because of it. 
 
I do not believe in public sector UNIONS in any form. A group of employees withholding vital tax funded services from a community until there demands are met in my eyes is wrong. Nothing anybody can say on here will convince me otherwise. Public UNIONs only exist to fund the Democratic Party. 
 
I would not say I am against pensions in the private sector, I would say I do not support them in the public sector when the government shows no ability to control costs. Forcing a taxpayer to pay for someone else's retirement that is superior to their own (in a declining economy mind you) in my eyes is wrong. 401k is the new standard and is in a lot of ways superior to a pension. The government needs to adopt it as well.  I am not saying to take pensions away or freeze them for people already on them, I am saying that new government employees should be migrated to 401k. I feel I have a right to criticize public pensions when I am involuntarily funding them for an irresponsible government.
 
You should also consider that for a long time the only reason people stayed at American Airlines was for the Pension, would it not have been better if their retirement was portable?
 
 

Truthfully, I'm glad not to be in a union with guys like you anymore with the anti-labor/union thoughts. You'd fit in real well with  most of the people at JFK cargo. Instead of knocking what other union people are getting and bringing them down to the AA TWU pay and benefits grow a pair and start fighting to rise up to what they are getting.

I am sorry you feel that way. I do not feel I am anti-labor/UNION. It is a UNIONs function to collectively bargain and enforce contracts, it is not their function to support laziness, stupidity, and political agendas.
 
I apologize if I have said anything to offend you. That was not my intent. I honestly think you have me all wrong though. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Did you have anything further to say OgieJFK?