Boston mechanic Gets CDD for ground damage

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

None of these incidents had anything to do with the seniority system. The guy from B was the bottom guy as a bus driver and the crap truck and had little time when this happened.  I know you're on an anti-union tirade but where in the blue hell did I mention seniority ? How you can read my post and come away with a seniority rant is beyond me. The fact of the matter is the union really had nothing to do with ANY of these cases. Management loved the guy cause he was another anti-union worker that slaved at AA. By anti-union I mean he did whatever the boss told him to do. If it involved violating the contract, using unsafe equipment, working unsafe, ect they didn't discipline him cause he was a classic kiss ass. So why discipline a guy who is on managements good side.

So you are telling me that the person driving the bus and servicing lavs had lower seniority than the ones throwing bags?
 
Granted I worked at a maintenance base and not the line but I have always been told those are "higher level" positions on the line. I know where I came from bus drivers had high seniority.
 
My conclusion may have been incorrect but it was made from both personal experience and word of mouth from long time employees.
 
We have had bus drivers at TULE that were not qualified to drive the bus (due to incompetence). They were too busy talking on their cell phone and not paying attention that they damn near hit several people. 
 
I would also ask you how many idiots out there call themselves crew chiefs simply because of their seniority date. 
 
I may have missed the mark by assuming (though an educated assumption) that the FSC had high seniority but I still stand by what I said. Putting people in technical and leadership positions they are not qualified for is wrong.
 
I would like to correct you on something. I am not anti-UNION. I am anti-TWU. I have actually signed an AMP card and I support AMFA. Now we have both made incorrect assumptions.
 
Have a nice day OgieJFK.

 

[eolesen]

I do not want to go into too much detail on open forums but I will say you are so off the mark it is not even funny.

If you're unable to say why you disagree, don't bother responding.
  

We seemed to have worked at two vastly different company's. In my experiences it had always came down to if management liked you.  The local TWU had some input too...but lets not BS here they were and are paper tigers.

I'm well aware that PPC can be entirely subjective, and gets implemented differently in different stations. It's entirely dependent on the manager, the HR rep, and the shop stewards.
 

My question is, if the mechanic was not trained on the tractor, then what was he doing on it?

Yep. Nobody's answered that one yet. I'm curious to hear why anyone would want to put themselves in that position when it's one of the few ways to refuse to do something you're told to do by a supervisor. That's even in the original 32 rules of conduct from the CR Smith days.

If you're not checked out on a piece of powered equipment, you don't move it. Period.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

With comments like that, your credibility is slowly deteriorating.

As long as I communicate what I believe credibility is a secondary concern. I can't let worrying about what others think of me force self censorship.
 
Do you want me to say what is going through my mind and be truthful or do you want me to say what I think you want to hear so I can be "credible"?
 

 Now that you're out of the industry, you feel it's ok to take pot shots, , especially at something (seniority) which is one of the few things we have left and something that has worked fine way before you were here and will continue way after you have been gone.

I am sorry you feel that way. I had these opinions long before I left the industry, Putting an idiot into a position he is not qualified for (but refuses to give up) is not my definition of "working fine". When you put someone in a technical/leadership role they are not qualified for it hurts crew efficiency and possibly endangers safety. That is FAR from fine.
 

I know I know, you still draw money from the industry.

Yes but I am looking to change that very soon.
 

I'm sure if you were still here you would complain if a new hire sat in the air conditioned truck and watched you load and unload a 757 belly in Dallas on a 105 degree day.

You are absolutely 100 percent correct. I would complain. That is not what I am talking about though. I am talking about leaving an individual in a position where he has proven himself a danger time and time again simply because of his seniority date.
 
I have seen an incompetent crew chief run a shift into the damn ground because he was too stupid to do the job and too stubborn to give it up. He simply took the job because he was a lazy fat slob and that was a position he could abuse to do as little as possible every day. He did not give a crap about the shift, he only cared that he could come to work and do nothing.
 
Do you not think that the crew (or company) should have some mechanism to remove a crew chief that has a long history of poor decision making that negatively impacts the crew?
 
Or better yet how about a well meaning mechanic that does not really have the technical aptitude for the job, should you put him on a complex system he wants to work on (and has the seniority to do so) or would it be better to give him "low level" simpler jobs he can actually handle?
 
I hope I have explained my position better. You may not agree with it but I am sure you have seen the issues I have referenced over your career.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

If you're unable to say why you disagree, don't bother responding.

I am not telling you I disagree with you, In theory you are 100 percent right. I am telling you that the company picks and chooses when to follow certain rules and when to ignore them. Wing walkers, and a back up guide for the lav driver are good examples of protocols that are not followed. A company that does not staff properly to follow its own safety rules and a weak UNION say you are wrong.

 

[richardhead]

My question is, if the mechanic was not trained on the tractor, then what was he doing on it?

Just trying to help out like many of us do, or have done in the past.
 
Only reason it went as far is it did, is because the station manager became involved.  Supervisors and Managers are in fear of losing their jobs.  They are told to jump and they just ask how high.  Remember management is rarely pro-active, but always reactive to situations similar to this.
 
Many training requests go unanswered, or told no because we don't have the heads to cover.  Will the BOS management make sure their people get all the training that is needed, probably not.  The same goes with all the stations.

 

[DallasConehead]

We don't know the facts of this case. But for arguments sake lets say the guy has a squeaky clean record, he was doing his job trying to go over and above, operating equipment he is not trained to use. ( a fool hardy mistake ) . Anyway, lets just say the company is inappropriately using the PPC process. Some supervisor gone awry, making a name for himself, issuing a career day without first using the steps.
 
The guys should refuse the CDD, take the final, go to the COO hearing and try to get it reversed. IF not, go to the street and wait to be arbitrated where the union can surely prove the guy is a clean guy, the company overstepped with the CDD, misused the PPC policy, and get the guy his job back and all the back pay and lost OT.
 
But no, now we are going to do a system wide action where we all refuse or want a directive from management for any equipment not trained on. Muddy the waters, where is the line on equipment are we talking tugs, blow carts, or crimpers?
 
Stupid and weak, since none of us should be using #### we aint trained on anyway.

 

[eolesen]

It's this simple -- the chances of getting fired or even written up for refusing to operate a piece of equipment that you're not qualified to operate are slim to none.

If local management doesn't accommodate the training that's required by corporate policy, then it's on local management when airplanes don't move.

It's the same thing with operating a piece of equipment that's missing seat belts, a parking brake, etc... If it's unsafe, refuse it. Step aside and let the supervisor drive it if he thinks he's qualified without having ever been trained...

 

[DallasConehead]

It's this simple -- the chances of getting fired or even written up for refusing to operate a piece of equipment that you're not qualified to operate are slim to none.

If local management doesn't accommodate the training that's required by corporate policy, then it's on local management when airplanes don't move.

It's the same thing with operating a piece of equipment that's missing seat belts, a parking brake, etc... If it's unsafe, refuse it. Step aside and let the supervisor drive it if he thinks he's qualified without having ever been trained...

 
No doubt you are correct, unfortunately in this crowd of mechanics there are always those that think they have to go over and above to achieve hero status.
 
When in fact all that is required is to punch in on time, then do as little as humanly possible in the space between, punch out, get your paycheck and head to the house.

 

[Rogallo]

A Slug?

 

[jcw]

What happened to the American (I don't mean the airline) way of working hard and going above and beyond - the attitude of there is always someone who tries hard is disappointing

 

[Force Majeure]

What happened to the American (I don't mean the airline) way of working hard and going above and beyond - the attitude of there is always someone who tries hard is disappointing

I would bet that 80% of the workforce is willing to go above and beyond. The focus of the managers should be to develop and support them.

 

[DallasConehead]

A Slug?

No slug, just do whats required, have a good time with the boys and head to the house. Doing extra don't pay. No good deed goes unpunished.
 
Why should I care to do any more?  Managers and supervisors don't care. DP sure as hell don't care, nobody cares, caring will only land you in the emergency room clutching your chest.

 

[AANOTOK]

No slug, just do whats required, have a good time with the boys and head to the house. Doing extra don't pay. No good deed goes unpunished.
 
Why should I care to do any more?  Managers and supervisors don't care. DP sure as hell don't care, nobody cares, caring will only land you in the emergency room clutching your chest.

Some of us were just brought up that way and it's one hell of a habit to break!  B)

 

[Zom JFK]

I am sorry you feel that way. I had these opinions long before I left the industry, Putting an idiot into a position he is not qualified for (but refuses to give up) is not my definition of "working fine". When you put someone in a technical/leadership role they are not qualified for it hurts crew efficiency and possibly endangers safety. That is FAR from fine.
 
Isn't that really management's responsibility to prevent that person from getting that position or to remove them if they are incompetent? Seniority only makes somone next in line to put in for a position. It doesn't guarantee it. The union provides for due process. It doesn't make these people invincible.
 
You are absolutely 100 percent correct. I would complain. That is not what I am talking about though. I am talking about leaving an individual in a position where he has proven himself a danger time and time again simply because of his seniority date.
 
Isn't that due to lazy management? If someone is a danger, management should be on them whether they have 6 months or 30 years.
 
I have seen an incompetent crew chief run a shift into the damn ground because he was too stupid to do the job and too stubborn to give it up. He simply took the job because he was a lazy fat slob and that was a position he could abuse to do as little as possible every day. He did not give a crap about the shift, he only cared that he could come to work and do nothing.
 
And where is management when this is going on? I have seen several crew chiefs get their "wings clipped" and be demoted. Some while on probation and some who weren't. One was a CC for several years and had high seniority. That didn't stop them from demoting him.
 
Do you not think that the crew (or company) should have some mechanism to remove a crew chief that has a long history of poor decision making that negatively impacts the crew?
 
The company does have a mechanism. Write them up for their incompetence and demote them. Of course the union will defend them, but if the company presents a valid case, they can and will demote them. 
 
Or better yet how about a well meaning mechanic that does not really have the technical aptitude for the job, should you put him on a complex system he wants to work on (and has the seniority to do so) or would it be better to give him "low level" simpler jobs he can actually handle?
 
Either somone is qualified for their job or they aren't. Seniority has nothing to do with that.
 
I hope I have explained my position better. You may not agree with it but I am sure you have seen the issues I have referenced over your career.
 
Seniority isn't perfect, but then again no system is. It is certainly preferable to favoritism.

 

[Zom JFK]

Some of us were just brought up that way and it's one hell of a habit to break!  B)

Unfortunately it is a good habit that while it does you credit, the company shamelessly exploits.