ITRADE
Veteran
Last time I flew to BOS, I remember seeing an entire side of the B concourse being used for Express. Colgan/CHQ/other airlines with their eclectic collection of aicraft.
BOS gates
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RowUnderDCA
Veteran
- Oct 6, 2002
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Massport could get crossways with the Feds if they turned a blind eye to ''gate hogging'' by an established carrier when a new-entrant wants in. I''d be very surprised if Massport would stiff-arm JetBlue. Maybe they wouldn''t role out the red carpet, but they''d eventually find some gates. I''d think they''d be able to negotiate something with UAL or USAirways to make gates available. I don''t know the terms of the leases, but just saying to JetBlue that there''s ''no room at the inn'' will cause problems.
The modified conditions as agreed to by DOT require the alliance carriers to give up two gates at Logan; the two gates currently are used by Northwest (I''d assume E1C and E1D -- "Northwest Airlines shall release to the airport sponsor upon its request two gates at BOS"). Massport actually wanted NWA to give up different gates which were widebody-capable, likely gates in the real Terminal E and not in Terminal D. DOT is allowing NWA to cede the gates it proposed; I imagine that AirTran will grab the one it partially uses, leaving one possibly available to jetBlue. Most of the other conditions on gates were extremely lenient -- at the hubs, the carriers are required to give up gates if they choose to colocate operations (so DL gives up gates in IAH''s Terminal A, CO/NW give up gates at CVG''s Terminals 1 & 2, CO gives up gates in DFW''s Terminal B, DL gives up gates in DTW''s old terminal).
The original conditions imposed by DOT required the carriers, "if requested by the airport operator, to surrender additional gates at their hubs and Boston Logan that were used less than six turns each day." Actually, DL/CO/NW are quite close to that usage requirement at present, if not above it (Delta''s schedule has just over 100 flights from its 13 gates, Continental has about 25 from its 5 gates). Delta will, of course, give up its gates in Terminals B and C once Terminal A opens, which is still slated for 2005 as far as I''m aware. Can''t be soon enough considering how bad Terminal C is right now.
I agree that US giving up gates to jetBlue (or AirTran) would probably be almost as bad for US as it would be for Delta. As far as I''m aware, Massport was very interested in getting some gates back from US if possible considering how underused their half of Terminal B is these days. US also is no longer #1 in Boston for passengers or daily flights, though they may be for non-stop destinations. I don''t know whether Massport can do much about signed leases, though -- that''s what allows US to sit on those gates if they so choose.
The original conditions imposed by DOT required the carriers, "if requested by the airport operator, to surrender additional gates at their hubs and Boston Logan that were used less than six turns each day." Actually, DL/CO/NW are quite close to that usage requirement at present, if not above it (Delta''s schedule has just over 100 flights from its 13 gates, Continental has about 25 from its 5 gates). Delta will, of course, give up its gates in Terminals B and C once Terminal A opens, which is still slated for 2005 as far as I''m aware. Can''t be soon enough considering how bad Terminal C is right now.
I agree that US giving up gates to jetBlue (or AirTran) would probably be almost as bad for US as it would be for Delta. As far as I''m aware, Massport was very interested in getting some gates back from US if possible considering how underused their half of Terminal B is these days. US also is no longer #1 in Boston for passengers or daily flights, though they may be for non-stop destinations. I don''t know whether Massport can do much about signed leases, though -- that''s what allows US to sit on those gates if they so choose.
Would the fact that there''s no Terminal A right now affect whether those gates are given up? I would assume that until the new one is complete someone must already be doing without their full quota of gates.
I fly BOS/FLL all the time, and can''t wait for jetblue, assuming that they''ll do nonstops on that route. The only thing better would be for US to bring ''em back.
I fly BOS/FLL all the time, and can''t wait for jetblue, assuming that they''ll do nonstops on that route. The only thing better would be for US to bring ''em back.
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On 4/10/2003 6:32:24 AM cat 111 wrote:
Makes to much sense to run nonstop flights from bos to fll.
bos-tpa
bos-pbi
bos-mia
If they only had a clue!!!!
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Amen...they are losing FL so bad! and the old argument about "low-yield" doesn't mean much..it's (almost) all low-yield these days..Maybe they'll introduce them for the summer season, given the astute marketing teams that must be deciding these things..On 4/10/2003 6:32:24 AM cat 111 wrote:
Makes to much sense to run nonstop flights from bos to fll.
bos-tpa
bos-pbi
bos-mia
If they only had a clue!!!!
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And throwing capacity on BOS-Florida makes sense in what way given the realities of the current market:
* Delta introducing "song" from BOS to PBI and TPA (with FLL, RSW, and MCO likely to follow)
* American operating BOS to FLL, PBI, MIA, and MCO
* The possibility of jetBlue entering the market
Not to mention that pulling Florida traffic away from BOS-CLT flights would weaken the CLT hub. The BOS-CLT market (roughly 175 passengers each way per day) doesn''t support 8 daily mainline non-stops each way without a lot of connecting traffic.
* Delta introducing "song" from BOS to PBI and TPA (with FLL, RSW, and MCO likely to follow)
* American operating BOS to FLL, PBI, MIA, and MCO
* The possibility of jetBlue entering the market
Not to mention that pulling Florida traffic away from BOS-CLT flights would weaken the CLT hub. The BOS-CLT market (roughly 175 passengers each way per day) doesn''t support 8 daily mainline non-stops each way without a lot of connecting traffic.
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On 4/10/2003 3
01 PM sfb wrote:
And throwing capacity on BOS-Florida makes sense in what way given the realities of the current market:
* Delta introducing "song" from BOS to PBI and TPA (with FLL, RSW, and MCO likely to follow)
* American operating BOS to FLL, PBI, MIA, and MCO
* The possibility of jetBlue entering the market
Not to mention that pulling Florida traffic away from BOS-CLT flights would weaken the CLT hub. The BOS-CLT market (roughly 175 passengers each way per day) doesn''t support 8 daily mainline non-stops each way without a lot of connecting traffic.
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I don''t think US needs to "throw capacity" (that implies excess to me) at BOS/Florida, but it''s important to compete effectively, and US is not. The BOS/Florida market is important to a lot of loyal customers, whether or not these are particularly important to US or not. Delta presently has (I think) five or six nonstops to FLL, and something like seven to Orlando, and many more to other airports, o it''s clear that there''s a lot of potential. Over the years, I have seen the same people on many of my flights on US. And I assume most are flying to other US destinations as well. But when you''re doing this commute during the winter, and there are plenty of other nonstop options to choose from, it''s hard to justify sticking with often troublesome connecting flights on US. The problems with delays aren''t worth it when you''re only away for a few days. I have wasted far too much time sitting in connecting airports waiting when I knew I could have already been there on another airline. You can''t force people to fill up those planes in Charlotte or PHL just by denying them any other choice on US. I just don''t see the wisdom in walking away from a large and loyal customer base, even if those routes aren''t the most profitable. If US continues to abandon any market that''s challenging there won''t be a lot left.On 4/10/2003 3
01 PM sfb wrote: And throwing capacity on BOS-Florida makes sense in what way given the realities of the current market:
* Delta introducing "song" from BOS to PBI and TPA (with FLL, RSW, and MCO likely to follow)
* American operating BOS to FLL, PBI, MIA, and MCO
* The possibility of jetBlue entering the market
Not to mention that pulling Florida traffic away from BOS-CLT flights would weaken the CLT hub. The BOS-CLT market (roughly 175 passengers each way per day) doesn''t support 8 daily mainline non-stops each way without a lot of connecting traffic.
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mbmbbost-
I agree with you that US Airways can''t continue to walk away from markets in the face of competition, but it''s also clear that the airline is stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I''ve said before, one of the biggest problems is that CLT is no match for ATL. While CLT is the second-best location for a Southeastern U.S. hub, it simply cannot hold a candle to ATL for O&D traffic generation. And even though Delta runs non-stops from BOS to FLL, PBI, MCO, TPA, and RSW (14 daily flights as of 5/1), they can still manage to fill 10 daily non-stops from BOS to ATL (6 of them on 767''s). If US were to add, say, 10 daily flights to Florida from BOS, there would be a corresponding erosion of traffic via CLT (as well as PHL, though O&D at PHL is much stronger), which would further weaken the CLT hub. If US Airways were to increase overflying of CLT (which is limited to a few flights from DCA at present), CLT would have to be further downsized and would likely look a lot like CVG (and the future PIT).
The historical problem for US Airways has been a cost structure considerably higher than its peers and far higher than the low-cost carriers. A strong presence in high-yield markets helped to temper that disadvantage in the past, but the increased presence of discounters in markets where US had formerly been dominant, combined with DL and CO stealing more of US'' high-yield passengers with RJ''s has left US with few places to retreat to. Hopefully, the airline''s new cost structure will be one which will allow it to compete more effectively. I just don''t know that competing with song, AirTran, American, and potentially jetBlue from BOS to Florida is a good fight to try and pick.
I agree with you that US Airways can''t continue to walk away from markets in the face of competition, but it''s also clear that the airline is stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I''ve said before, one of the biggest problems is that CLT is no match for ATL. While CLT is the second-best location for a Southeastern U.S. hub, it simply cannot hold a candle to ATL for O&D traffic generation. And even though Delta runs non-stops from BOS to FLL, PBI, MCO, TPA, and RSW (14 daily flights as of 5/1), they can still manage to fill 10 daily non-stops from BOS to ATL (6 of them on 767''s). If US were to add, say, 10 daily flights to Florida from BOS, there would be a corresponding erosion of traffic via CLT (as well as PHL, though O&D at PHL is much stronger), which would further weaken the CLT hub. If US Airways were to increase overflying of CLT (which is limited to a few flights from DCA at present), CLT would have to be further downsized and would likely look a lot like CVG (and the future PIT).
The historical problem for US Airways has been a cost structure considerably higher than its peers and far higher than the low-cost carriers. A strong presence in high-yield markets helped to temper that disadvantage in the past, but the increased presence of discounters in markets where US had formerly been dominant, combined with DL and CO stealing more of US'' high-yield passengers with RJ''s has left US with few places to retreat to. Hopefully, the airline''s new cost structure will be one which will allow it to compete more effectively. I just don''t know that competing with song, AirTran, American, and potentially jetBlue from BOS to Florida is a good fight to try and pick.
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On 4/10/2003 6:32:24 AM cat 111 wrote:
Makes to much sense to run nonstop flights from bos to fll.
bos-tpa
bos-pbi
bos-mia
If they only had a clue!!!!
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On 4/10/2003 6:32:24 AM cat 111 wrote:
Makes to much sense to run nonstop flights from bos to fll.
bos-tpa
bos-pbi
bos-mia
If they only had a clue!!!!
----------------
I predict these to eventually become MDA routes. It would make sense having a lower cost flight (RJ pay rates) on a low yield, high LF market. If they ran 2-3 of these nonstop a day, I''d bet they would be full. An EMB-170, with a slightly larger cabin, would hopefully be ''comfortable enough'' for the longer leg than a typical RJ flight.
Lots of good thoughts...perhaps there will be a solution that keeps us BOS/Florida customers happy, since a lot are the same ones that fly US to the other higher-yield markets as well. I just believe that good BOS/Florida (i.e. nonstop)flights should be a STAPLE item for an airline that wants a major presence on the east coast, regardless of competition. Even just one flight per day to each major city. There will always be enough seats sold to us loyal customers, if capacity is managed reasonably. And the others can still fly Song or Jetblue. Dave''s comment to the Boston Globe that the Boston market was important and would be "resurrected" this year makes me feel a little hopeful.
