Biden's Five

[EastUS]

The logic is actually quite clear. You and so many other right wingers believe it's intellectually honest to hold Obama responsible for words uttered from the pulpit of his church - demanding that he denounce and disown - even if he wasn't there when those words were said. Meanwhile, Jews for Jesus spews their vile nonsense about Israel while Palin sits there in the pews and her pastor says he sees nothing wrong with it. Following right wing logic...we must conclude that Palin shares these exact same views. Further, continuing with right wing logic, since you see no reason to attack her over the episode at her church, we can also assume that you agree. It's classic guilt by association...and by your posts you seem to be quite comfortable with it.

I assume that any who embrace any given church over the course of many years are qualifiably likely to share elements of the core values therein...on EITHER side. It amuses me that you, as is so generally the easy case with the "lefties", find such a reasonable observation to be evidence of my being "right wing" = ANYONE who dares question the Holy Scriptures of the Left in any way... I think that whack-cases exist on both sides here...but the clear "Winner" has to go to the full-blown, nut job, loudly shouting that God should "Damn America". Realize that we're discussing America here..You know? = The very country obama wants to "lead"? Against that..you're fretting over iisues with Israel. We're not voting for the leadership of Israel here..........

 

[Flying Titan]

I assume that any who embrace any given church over the course of many years are qualifiably likely to share elements of the core values therein...on EITHER side. It amuses me that you, as is so generally the easy case with the "lefties", find such a reasonable observation to be evidence of my being "right wing" = ANYONE who dares question the Holy Scriptures of the Left in any way... I think that whack-cases exist on both sides here...but the clear "Winner" has to go to the full-blown, nut job, loudly shouting that God should "Damn America". Realize that we're discussing America here..You know? = The very country obama wants to "lead"? Against that..you're fretting over iisues with Israel. We're not voting for the leadership of Israel here..........

Again, you're trying to make Obama responsible for comments that never came out of his mouth. He wasn't even there when those words were said. He has denounced/disowned the pastor and that church - and still you act as though these were his words (right wing reasoning - guilt by association). Meanwhile you don't use the same line of reasoning in Palin's case or make any attempt to hold her to the same standard - even though she was sitting right there for the whole thing and her church hasn't denounced any of it. She certainly hasn't denounced her church or pastor for hosting this trash.

Further, I find it interesting that you want to make a relative comparison between the two statements and have decided that saying that thousands of people DESERVE to have been killed by terrorists is somehow less repugnant.

 

[EastUS]

Again, you're trying to make Obama responsible for comments that never came out of his mouth. He wasn't even there when those words were said.

Makes sense..after all..he was only a member of that "parrish" for 20 years..and I'm certain that he missed every single time that "pastor" mouthed off in such an anti-American fashion and was utterly oblivious to that person's take on anything that's now politically inconvenient. Without exception; everytime obama was inside that "church"..with it's clearly expressed cabals regarding love of Country....it was pure milk and honey all around. Sure thing..Whatever you say

"Further, I find it interesting that you want to make a relative comparison between the two statements and have decided that saying that thousands of people DESERVE to have been killed by terrorists is somehow less repugnant" I make no such relative observation. I merely pointed out that we're concerned here with the government of America, not Israel...but..Now that you mention it..how's about a quarter of million+ Americans that "Should be damned"?

 

[Flying Titan]

Makes sense..after all..he was only a member of that "parrish" for 20 years..and I'm certain that he missed every single time that "pastor" mouthed off in such an anti-American fashion and was utterly oblivious to that person's take on anything that's now politically inconvenient. Without exception; everytime obama was inside that "church"..with it's clearly expressed cabals regarding love of Country....it was pure milk and honey all around. Sure thing..Whatever you say

"Further, I find it interesting that you want to make a relative comparison between the two statements and have decided that saying that thousands of people DESERVE to have been killed by terrorists is somehow less repugnant" I make no such relative observation. I merely pointed out that we're concerned here with the government of America, not Israel...but..Now that you mention it..how's about a quarter of million+ Americans that "Should be damned"?

Taking the second point first... you can 'damn' me all you want - I'll still be alive and kicking tomorrow. Can't say the same for the thousands upon thousands killed in Israel. And yes, you did make a relative comparison calling one the clear "winner" among the two statements as being more of a "full blown, nut job."

On your first point - you make assumptions that you can't back up. It has been proven that Obama wasn't even in the state of Illinois when that infamous sermon was delivered. Still, you claim somehow that he should assume responsibility for it and that he viewed other similar sermons (which I haven't seen, nor heard) over and over. Still he denounced the pastor and left that church. Meanwhile, we know for a fact that Sarah Palin sat in the pews, watched the 'Israelis deserve to be blown up' sermon, has a pastor who says he saw nothing wrong with it - and she hasn't denounced her pastor or her church. All the while, you want to rip Obama and give the golden girl a pass. Smells like pure hypocrisy.

 

[EastUS]

All the while, you want to rip Obama and give the golden girl a pass. Smells like pure hypocrisy.

Show me anywhere that I'm even implying that she should be given any pass for that?....Meanwhile..shove your "hypocrisy" back into it's rightful and self-righteous orifice, and stop projecting such BS onto others.

My thoughts are that I want people on high who truly care about THIS country. If one's to prioritize between America and Israel = Screw Israel, if it came to that choice....period. If you're trying to waste everyone's time putting up some absurdly insane BS Spin that obama magically didn't know how his "Holy"..umm.."pastor" felt...for over twenty freaking years..well..all I can say is: Give us all a freaking break here!!

 

[Flying Titan]

Show me anywhere that I'm even implying that she should be given any pass for that?

Actually, there have been numerous posts in this thread where you have done exactly that...repeatedly giving the golden girl a pass while ripping Obama. Beginning with post # 13. You've tried to take my point about Palin and her actual attendance at an extreme sermon without denouncing it or her pastor for hosting and then defending the sermon and responded by attacking Obama - never once actually addressing any similar responsibility or culpability on the part of Palin. Obama did denounce and leave that church. Clearly, after so many posts where you've had the opportunity to say she should do the same thing, you've chosen not to do that. You - and so many other conservatives - clearly hold her to a much lower standard of personal responsibility.

 

[delldude]

He wasn't even there when those words were said.

In fact, Obama was present in the South Side Chicago church on July 22 last year when Jim Davis, a freelance correspondent for Newsmax, attended services along with Obama. [See: â€Obama’s Church: Cauldron of Division.â€]

In his sermon that day, Wright tore into America, referring to the “United States of White America†and lacing his sermon with expletives as Obama listened. Hearing Wright’s attacks on his own country, Obama had the opportunity to walk out, but Davis said the senator sat in his pew and nodded in agreement.

Addressing the Iraq war, Wright thundered, “Young African-American men†were “dying for nothing.†The “illegal war,†he shouted, was “based on Bush’s lies†and is being “fought for oil money.â€

You are correct......

You and your hero are liar's...........

 

[UAL_TECH]

You are correct......

You and your hero are liar's...........

Doh!!!

 

[EastUS]

Clearly, after so many posts where you've had the opportunity to say she should do the same thing, you've chosen not to do that. You - and so many other conservatives - clearly hold her to a much lower standard of personal responsibility.

It isn't any BS about selective notions of "personal responsibility" herein..It's an issue of being either Pro or Anti-American. If anyone's disposed towards perversely believing that Israel's woes are divinely induced...I'm not favorably impressed with the "thinking" therein, to say the very least, BUT: I DO find VERY reasonable concern with some whack-cases that believe that "God should Damn America", or have ANY even remotely similar sentiments, EVER being elected to the Presidency. Are we finally clear here? All are entitled to attend the church of their choosing. What's within the belief structure of any such church is fair game for concern...on both sides.

Given any choice at all here? = I'll completely pass on the "God should Damn America" utter jackazzes..EVERY time, thank you very much.

 

[Flying Titan]

You are correct......

You and your hero are liar's...........

Gee...I guess it's a good thing he left that church...and denounced the pastor. Palin hasn't taken that or any other step to denounce what happened at her church. Yet, still not one word of criticism from you for Palin. Guess she doesn't have to do anything like Obama did. Why are you unwilling or unable to say that Palin should be held to EXACTLY THE SAME STANDARD as Obama?

 

[Flying Titan]

It isn't any BS about selective notions of "personal responsibility" herein..

Funny, all my life I've believed that personal responsibility is incredibly important....and I'm always amazed that conservatives who believe they hold some monopoly on a narrow set of "family values" are so quick to abandon the notion of personal responsibility whenever it suits them. You just confirmed that again.

I DO find VERY reasonable concern with some whack-cases that believe that "God should Damn America", or have ANY even remotely similar sentiments, EVER being elected to the Presidency. Are we finally clear here? Given any choice at all here? = I'll completely pass on the "God should Damn America" utter jackazzes..EVERY time, thank you very much.

Yes, it's VERY CLEAR that you are trying to say Obama said these words. He did not. That makes you a LIAR. You want to hang one "jackazze's" words on Obama....but you believe Palin should bear ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSIBILITY for the other "jackazze's" words. That makes you a HYPOCRITE. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Until you are willing to hold the golden girl to the same standard you will remain nothing more than a hypocrite.

 

[Tug McGroin]

Gee...I guess it's a good thing he left that church...and denounced the pastor. Palin hasn't taken that or any other step to denounce what happened at her church. Yet, still not one word of criticism from you for Palin. Guess she doesn't have to do anything like Obama did. Why are you unwilling or unable to say that Palin should be held to EXACTLY THE SAME STANDARD as Obama?

Speaking of standards, how long did it take the media, or for that matter, Obama supporters to investigate the political radicalism at Trinity United Church of Christ and Jeremiah Wright? 15 months. How long did it take for them to start with Palin and her religious beliefs? Less than a week. The reason for this may very well be that they simple didn’t care what his beliefs were. Now, in a strange reversal, they care.

Maybe Palin should do the same thing Obama did and repudiate her Pastor and leave her church. While she’s at it she should remove her Pastor from the position of “Campaign Spiritual Adviserâ€￾ . . . no wait, he isn’t.

You praise Obama for doing the right thing by repudiating his Pastor and leaving his church, but you have never explained his reasons for doing so. Was it a sudden realization, an epiphany Obama experienced on or about the same day that the public became aware of Jeremiah Wright’s vitriol, anti-Semitic, anti-American and racist sermons that drove his decision, or had Obama’s association with Jeremiah Wright and Trinity United Church of Christ become a political liability worthy of relocation under his bus? You decide.

Furthermore, Jeremiah Wright’s sermons were based on a foundation established by Rev. James Cone, the founder of Black Liberation Theology (BLT). You may have a case by stating Obama wasn’t “presentâ€￾ (a term frequently used by Obama in the Illinois Senate) during Wright’s ultra venomous and publicized sermons, but it is void of reason to expect that Obama didn’t accept, believe and practice BLT. If you think Palin’s religious beliefs are extreme, study the “Black Value Systemâ€￾ of BLT!

It may be prudent to note what Obama actually repudiated. Here’s his statement, (March 14, 2008) posted appropriately enough at HuffPo. A three-pronged defense: A: he didn’t know, B: he condemns what Wright said without reservation, and C: the guy’s retiring anyway.

“Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue…

Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he’s been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.â€￾

That’s a nice, lawyerly dodge. Is he suggesting that in 20 years’ time he never heard Wright say anything along these lines? Or is he merely suggesting that he was never personally in attendance when Wright said it, as if that would matter remotely to his decision to stay with the church once he heard about it secondhand? Is he saying that he would have quit the church over this rhetoric if not for the fact that Wright was retiring?

Here’s another quote taken from the March 14, 2008 HuffPo article:

“In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he’s been my pastor.â€￾

14 months earlier in an article from the Chicago Tribune, Obama is quoted as saying

“Obama says that rather than advising him on strategy, Wright helps keep his priorities straight and his moral compass calibrated. …

Though Wright and Obama do not often talk one-on-one often, the senator does check with his pastor before making any bold political moves.

Last fall, Obama approached Wright to broach the possibility of running for president. Wright cautioned Obama not to let politics change him, but he also encouraged Obama, win or lose.â€￾

Before you dish out the “hypocriteâ€￾ declarations make sure you know what you’re talking about.

 

[Flying Titan]

Tug,
Barack Obama's religious beliefs have been more investigated and reported-on than any presidential candidate since JFK. Yet, here we are two months before the election and you - and so many other conservatives - still want to play the victim and whine that it's not enough.

Meanwhile...the closest that you can come to holding the golden girl to the same standard is, "maybe Palin should do the same thing." At least that's further than East US has been willing to go. Why is it so difficult to say simply that Palin must denounce the vile words that came from the pulpit of her church as she sat there and listened, and denounce her pastor for saying there was nothing wrong with it?

Because you - and so many other conservatives - are so unwilling to hold her to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS, it's very easy to call you hypocrites. There's really no better word for it.

 

[Tug McGroin]

Tug,
Barack Obama's religious beliefs have been more investigated and reported-on than any presidential candidate since JFK. Yet, here we are two months before the election and you - and so many other conservatives - still want to play the victim and whine that it's not enough.

Meanwhile...the closest that you can come to holding the golden girl to the same standard is, "maybe Palin should do the same thing." At least that's further than East US has been willing to go. Why is it so difficult to say simply that Palin must denounce the vile words that came from the pulpit of her church as she sat there and listened, and denounce her pastor for saying there was nothing wrong with it?

Because you - and so many other conservatives - are so unwilling to hold her to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS, it's very easy to call you hypocrites. There's really no better word for it.

Flying Titan Sep 5 2008, 08:17 PM
Meanwhile, we know for a fact that Sarah Palin sat in the pews, watched the 'Israelis deserve to be blown up' sermon, has a pastor who says he saw nothing wrong with it - and she hasn't denounced her pastor or her church.

Flying Titan Sep 5 2008 10:06 PM
You've tried to take my point about Palin and her actual attendance at an extreme sermon without denouncing it or her pastor for hosting and then defending the sermon.

It wasn’t Palin’s Pastor who delivered the sermon. The sermon was delivered by a quest speaker by the name of David Brickner, Executive Director of Jews for Jesus. The name of the sermon wasn't “Israelis deserve to be blown upâ€, it was “The Jerusalem Dilemmaâ€.

http://wasillabible.org/

http://wasillabible.org/sermons.htm (download sermon "The Jerusalem Dilemma" on 17 August 2008.

On 3 September 2008, Palin denounced “Jews for Jesus†Executive Director David Brick in an article posted in The Jewish Journal, “Vice presidential pick Sarah Palin says she doesn’t share the views of a Jews for Jesus leader who in a speech at her church suggested that violence against Israelis resulted from God’s judgment against Jews who have failed to embrace Jesus."

Palin’s Pastor, Larry Kroon, acknowledged that Palin was in attendance when the sermon was presented. This is a fact that you have stated on more than one occasion and is the very basis of your argument that Palin must have been in agreement with the beliefs of Jews for Jesus (the left-wing tactic of "guilt by association"). However, you failed to acknowledge that Palin and her family had no idea that David Brickner was going to be the quest speaker that day.

Church pastor Larry Kroon confirmed that Palin, the governor of Alaska who was chosen last week by U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to join his GOP presidential ticket, would have had no way of knowing that Brickner was slated to speak.

“Governor Palin does not share the views he expressed, and she and her family would not have been sitting in the pews of this church for the last seven years if his remarks were even remotely typicalâ€

Palin Rejects Views Of Jews for Jesus Speaker

You’re not trying to say that Palin is “guilty by association†are you? Palin doesn't need to denounce her Pastor or her church!

Flying Titan Sep 5 2008 06:24 PM
Again, you're trying to make Obama responsible for comments that never came out of his mouth. He wasn't even there when those words were said. He has denounced/disowned the pastor and that church - and still you act as though these were his words (right wing reasoning - guilt by association). . . . Further, I find it interesting that you want to make a relative comparison between the two statements and have decided that saying that thousands of people DESERVE to have been killed by terrorists is somehow less repugnant.

Since you’re all about maintaining standards, you are the one making Palin responsible for comments that never came out of her mouth. Even if she did and were to comply with your accepted standards, she would have 14 more months to do so.

I’m not about to defend the statements or beliefs of David Brickner or Jews for Jesus. It’s obvious you have exaggerated the words of Brickner when you state he said “thousands of people DESERVE to have been killed by terroristsâ€. Brickner is quoted as saying;

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment - you can't miss it."

You might be interested in what Abraham Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League had to say about Palin;

The ADL’s national director, Abraham Foxman, told JTA that Protestant evangelizing to Jews was entirely different from Catholics praying for Jewish conversion, which the ADL has sharply criticized.

“They did not have the Inquisition. They did not go on a Crusade. They did not kill Jews for 2,000 years,†Foxman said. “They have a belief; they’re entitled to their belief.â€

Besides, he said, there is no evidence that Palin shares Brickner’s views.

 

[Flying Titan]

Tug -

In the context of this election, the 'guilt by association' thing clearly began with the right wing - which is still trying to blame Obama for words he never said. You have even done so in postings in this thread. I am only indicating 'guilt by association' to the EXACT SAME DEGREE that you have done with Obama - no more, no less.

I never claimed that Palin's pastor delivered that sermon (please re-read the posts that you quoted above if you have any doubt). I have claimed that the pastor invited this group into the church and that, afterwards, the pastor said he saw nothing wrong with the sermon that Jews for Jesus delivered that day.

I am pleased to see that Palin has denounced these remarks. It was the right thing to do, though I still don't see where she has said a word about her pastor's decision to invite this group to the church in the first place - or his comments afterwards. In any case, you still haven't indicated yet that this was the necessary course of action that she had to take - hence the sad double standard that you hold when it comes to your golden girl.