Ass. And AA should bring proposal to employees

[title 2]

bring it up for a vote i vote NO NO NO.

 

[WeAAsles]

On economics. The Company has offered 3% in wages above the highest paid competitor in comparison to Delta or United Airlines. They have not guaranteed we will remain 3% above for the life of the agreements. So potentially we will fall behind over time.

They have not offered to secure Profit Sharing in Contract language and they have not offered to match the formulas that Delta and United have which is far more lucrative.

They want everyone in the current cost LAA Medical plans. They do not want to agree to any caps on rising costs being passed on to us. Potentially meaning they can charge us any cost that suites them for us to have that benefit.

Is this what some here want to vote on?

 

[MikeS]

You have the option to vote no. Right now we have no option. And I would vote yes on all of those items, I have no issue with the raise, profit sharing is just a bonus I don't count on it to pay my bills. I believe med ins is fairly cheap compared to others that I know.

 

[WeAAsles]

You have the option to vote no. Right now we have no option. And I would vote yes on all of those items, I have no issue with the raise, profit sharing is just a bonus I don't count on it to pay my bills. I believe med ins is fairly cheap compared to others that I know.

I respect the vote choice you would chose to make as long as you did all the research you could to make it the most informed vote.

If we had no language at all to restrict the Company from charging whatever they like for Medical do you believe what you pay for that benefit would continue to be fairly cheap over time?

So you are also saying though economically you’re ok if you wound up being the lowest compensated in the industry by comparison to DL, UAL and maybe SWA? If you’re a mechanic also maybe lower than UPS and FedEx?

 

[WeAAsles]

Take scope for example, I don't really care about scope. That's only a benefit for the union to collect dues.

The TWU organized the ground workers at AA in 1947. Now if people were making comments like the one you made here all the way back then, you and I might not have this decent paying job with an enforceable employment contract today?

Scope is the absolute foundation of our Contract. It’s what defines the work we do and the work we own. If we had no Scope language then nothing else you seem to covet would exist either because the Company would be able to outsource every single one of us.

I think I know what you meant by your comment though or at least I hope I know?

 

[B737 driver]

You have the option to vote no. Right now we have no option. And I would vote yes on all of those items, I have no issue with the raise, profit sharing is just a bonus I don't count on it to pay my bills. I believe med ins is fairly cheap compared to others that I know.

You guys are where we were at in 2016, us wanting to vote on something, our union AMFA saying no. We finally voted this year after the Union poisoned the well to make sure it wouldn't pass taking 6 months to go from an AIP to a T/A vote. If people are concerned about med caps, just put a letter of agreement for a me too clause on med caps.

 

[1AA]

Companies proposal which we only know about on jetnet. What it does not tell us is the destruction of our scope. Whatever scope there is is full of holes and gray areas that are left for interpretation. That's the kind of interpretation the company will win in arbitration cases.
I contacted union officials and asked these same questions that most of us want answers too. You won't get every answer you want. Let me just say unless your looking for an early out the companies proposal is a death coffin to our work rules and scope. Jobs will be lost or shifted to other stations. Stations will be reduced or replaced by third party contractors or the inhouse cancer called ENVOY. This management team only cares about making money on the cheap.
Farm out what you can seems to be a priority and second is too cut back on whatever you can that can't be farmed out. In Aircraft Maintenance the cross utilization was our biggest leverage and the association gave it up for a pay increase. Company won. Now we are in meditation with no leverage.

 

[WeAAsles]

If people are concerned about med caps, just put a letter of agreement for a me too clause on med caps.

If it were that easy to just “put a letter” on everything you wouldn’t be in Negotiations for 6 years and we wouldn’t be in Negotiations for 3 years.

In Aircraft Maintenance the cross utilization was our biggest leverage and the association gave it up for a pay increase. Company won. Now we are in meditation with no leverage.

Would you or the majority of the Membership have accepted being roughly 25% in wages behind your peers for what is now 2 years? Do you think the Association could have gotten the raises without the Cross utilization agreement being attached?

You also know that most groups that go into Section 6 Negotiations don’t have much leverage either thanks to incredibly weak Union members. (Apathy and laziness)

 

[Tim Nelson]

Does anybody else think that AA should offer a proposal to ass. and ass. should bring it to membership for a vote, just to see where the membership stands?

We would be able to see if AA is offering an industry leading contract, and if we vote it down, the ass negotiators would have the full backing of union membership.

Meeting at the end of October then not again until end of January seems like a good timeline to see how membership feels.

the problem is maintenance. The company is way out of line in its competition battle with the Delta's and United's. Thanks to strong TWU language for MX. I think the company has 5,000 more mx on payroll than Delta and United as a result and Parker says that is a monster cost disadvantage. I don't see this problem going away since Parker also already got his 'seamlessness' with cross utilization.

Therefore, Fleet is held hostage. The most logical thing to do is for fleet to remove itself from MX and get another union that pledges a vote on the last offer. Otherwise, we are losing $1,100 a month and will be far far away from any JCBA within the next 3 years.

 

[B737 driver]

If it were that easy to just “put a letter” on everything you wouldn’t be in Negotiations for 6 years and we wouldn’t be in Negotiations for 3 years.



Would you or the majority of the Membership have accepted being roughly 25% in wages behind your peers for what is now 2 years? Do you think the Association could have gotten the raises without the Cross utilization agreement being attached?

You also know that most groups that go into Section 6 Negotiations don’t have much leverage either thanks to incredibly weak Union members. (Apathy and laziness)

The me too clauses would probably be more achievable than Usair medical. If they don't ever give it to any other,group it is pretty much meaningless, other than a feel good clause.

 

[1AA]

the problem is maintenance. The company is way out of line in its competition battle with the Delta's and United's. Thanks to strong TWU language for MX. I think the company has 5,000 more mx on payroll than Delta and United as a result and Parker says that is a monster cost disadvantage. I don't see this problem going away since Parker also already got his 'seamlessness' with cross utilization.

Therefore, Fleet is held hostage. The most logical thing to do is for fleet to remove itself from MX and get another union that pledges a vote on the last offer. Otherwise, we are losing $1,100 a month and will be far far away from any JCBA within the next 3 years.

Or maintenance get away from fleet service. Problem is we have uninformed members and others who are afraid of going at it alone. Strength in numbers is good for the International treasury. The membership is being taken for a ride and not being fully informed on every aspect of the negotiations and how the associations structure is failing.

 

[B737 driver]

Or maintenance get away from fleet service. Problem is we have uninformed members and others who are afraid of going at it alone. Strength in numbers is good for the International treasury. The membership is being taken for a ride and not being fully informed on every aspect of the negotiations and how the associations structure is failing.

Let me ask you this question in a dose of reality. If our independent union craft union AMFA can not get a quick deal with SWA, who has been profitable for 40 years. UPS has the Teamsters went five and rejected, a very good deal, but now they will have it anyway, and that took 5 years. What makes you think AMP would be any faster or any quicker, than what Parker wants for a maintenance contract?

 

[1AA]

Let me ask you this question in a dose of reality. If our independent union craft union AMFA can not get a quick deal with SWA, who has been profitable for 40 years. UPS has the Teamsters went five and rejected, a very good deal, but now they will have it anyway, and that took 5 years. What makes you think AMP would be any faster or any quicker, than what Parker wants for a maintenance contract?

It's well known your hatred for the AMFA.
What gives you the impression the UPS contract was a good contract? The ones that cared voted No as a majority. The ones that did not vote didn't care. We at AA have the association and it's so dysfunctional and counter productive as a union that they made sure we had no vote in its certification even though they went out of their way telling us so. We have no transparency. Two dysfunctional unions trying to negotiate a single agreement with many different work groups says volumes. We are fighting with sticks. If we were on our own we know where we stand against the company. Will we do better? Depends who you ask. I'm sure you'll say no. If being independent and better organized is a problem then why are the AA pilots still independent as well as the flight attendants? They have a JCBA post BK. We do not. Why would anyone suggest that title 1 and 2 guys should not go on their own after the association has failed us so far? So the independent APA and APFA have gotten JCBA's and are moving forward to their next contracts.
Did that answer your curiosity?

 

[B737 driver]

It's well known your hatred for the AMFA.
What gives you the impression the UPS contract was a good contract? The ones that cared voted No as a majority. The ones that did not vote didn't care. We at AA have the association and it's so dysfunctional and counter productive as a union that they made sure we had no vote in its certification even though they went out of their way telling us so. We have no transparency. Two dysfunctional unions trying to negotiate a single agreement with many different work groups says volumes. We are fighting with sticks. If we were on our own we know where we stand against the company. Will we do better? Depends who you ask. I'm sure you'll say no. If being independent and better organized is a problem then why are the AA pilots still independent as well as the flight attendants? They have a JCBA post BK. We do not. Why would anyone suggest that title 1 and 2 guys should not go on their own after the association has failed us so far? So the independent APA and APFA have gotten JCBA's and are moving forward to their next contracts.
Did that answer your curiosity?

Transparency does not produce a contract. AMFA runs on transparency. Pilots and F/A have power maintenance doesn't have, because they are always taken care of. You might not like to hear that, but it's the truth.

 

[1AA]

Transparency does not produce a contract. AMFA runs on transparency. Pilots and F/A have power maintenance doesn't have, because they are always taken care of. You might not like to hear that, but it's the truth.

So why did you even bother to ask me?
I hear UPS and UAL are hiring.