Approved Electronic Devices - GPS?

[N965VJ]

I’ve got a GPS unit that plugs into my PalmPilot, but it always goes out around above a certain speed. I think that’s because it is designed for use in a car, not a jet aircraft.

 

[ClueByFour]

According to our F.O.M. (Flight Operations Manual) GPS is under the list as not approved.

Better have your fellow aviators read the revised version.

I make it a point to ask the CA and/or FO if it's okay or if they mind before I even think about using the GPS. I've never (on US, anyway) been denied.

I don't mind--if the FOM says what it says than so be it. But I would imagine the cockpit crew would respond as such when queried.

 

[PHX-F/A]

Gentlemen, here is your final answer(straight from the F/A Energency Manaual). "Prohibited from use:Satellite receivers:including global positioning systems(GPS), XM Radio,Sirius Radio, etc." That comes from Rev. 42(which is the latest revision) of the F/A Emerg. Manual. That should clear it up for you guys.

It's also in the America West Magazine. I'm not sure how they've worded it, but it's on a list of banned electronic devices. I had to get it out as proof to a passenger that the rules had changed.

 

[ClueByFour]

Just a thought: while they may be banned, it's a completely stupid idea to do so.

 

[smmech]

Just a thought: while they may be banned, it's a completely stupid idea to do so.

Your pilot or F/O is not an engineer. You are not an engineer or not one responsible for the saftey of flight.. Please leave these matters to the people unlucky enought to be responsible if they made the wrong call. I have had several hundred hours of Nav/Com training and would not even remotely feel confident in allowing you to use your GPS device onboard my A/C..

 

[ClueByFour]

Your pilot or F/O is not an engineer. You are not an engineer or not one responsible for the saftey of flight.. Please leave these matters to the people unlucky enought to be responsible if they made the wrong call. I have had several hundred hours of Nav/Com training and would not even remotely feel confident in allowing you to use your GPS device onboard my A/C..

Outside of a nice sound bite, do you have any legitimate reasons, or simply that you are "not an engineer?"

See, I'm a pilot (albeit SEL with an instrument ticket) and, amazingly enough, an engineer. I have no qualms at all about taking a mulitpurpose (including aviation) GPS onto an airplane, although I respect and abide by the airline's irrational decision to play chicken little on the subject.

Consider this (which I'm sure you already knew with your extensive Nav/Comms training): the total power consumption of a GPS unit is typically around one watt. It's internal oscillators and computer or logic boards are significantly smaller than those found in a simple laptop computer (which consumes at least 10 watts). Put a scanner up next to your laptop and then reapeat the process with a handheld GPSr and tell me which one has larger spurs. Finally, every GPS is certified to pass FCC Part 15 Class B EMI tests, which are more stringent than anything but FAA certification tests (and in reality, probably even more stringent than those as well).

In short, I stand by my original statement: not permitting GPSr use is stupid.

 

[Prince of PAWOBs]

Clue By Four,

You obviously know what you are talking about technically, and I take no issue with you on that point. But what would be the benefit of actually using a GPSr in flight as a passenger? The entertainment value might be what I would gravitate toward as the flight crew makes their turns at VOR's or as the local flight center gives them instructions, but if I was an F/A, I might be a bit concerned if a passenger was using one in flight, given the paranoia over terrorism.

 

[Dea Certe]

How can a GPS be used for terrorism? I'm not very mechanically minded.

It seems to me the people who use them just like to know where they are. It's of much interest to many people. We are frequently asked inflight about our location.

Remember those clever moving maps one used to see on international flights? People loved those!

Dea

 

[jimntx]

I make it a point to ask the CA and/or FO if it's okay or if they mind before I even think about using the GPS. I've never (on US, anyway) been denied.

I don't mind--if the FOM says what it says than so be it. But I would imagine the cockpit crew would respond as such when queried.

Clue, you would be surprised at how many cockpit occupants don't have one--clue, that is. When I report missing equipment--such as, seatbelt extensions, etc--I am constantly asked by cockpit guys, "Is that on the minimum equipment list?" They are the ones who have that list. My procedures are just to report the missing equipment.

Outside of a nice sound bite, do you have any legitimate reasons, or simply that you are "not an engineer?"...
In short, I stand by my original statement: not permitting GPSr use is stupid.

Try, because the FAA and the FCC (I think) said so. You may have a Maserati and think it is stupid that the speed limit is only 65 mph, but that's the way it is. If it bothers you that much, I would suggest taking up the matter with the Federal agencies that make the rules.

 

[Prince of PAWOBs]

How can a GPS be used for terrorism? I'm not very mechanically minded.

It seems to me the people who use them just like to know where they are. It's of much interest to many people. We are frequently asked inflight about our location.

Remember those clever moving maps one used to see on international flights? People loved those!

Dea

That's a good question! There are a lot of possibilities, one of which could be figuring out where to do something heinous to the plane or flight crew at night in a sparsely populated area (i.e. mountain range or over an ocean), or worse yet, near a nuclear power facility or other sensitive area where damage could end up being widespread.

I still stand by my statement that a GPSr should be left off and put away during a flight. It would be great to use one to see where you are, and I bet kids would love to look at one while flying on a long flight to pass the time. In my opinion, it's just not a good time in our history to use them while flying commercially.

 

[oldbscaler]

My guess is the policy of no GPS's in the cabin is set by the legal boys. When you think of it, to have some guy in 24A telling everyone who can hear him that "we're lost" or "going the wrong way" because of a weather or ATC reroute, could be very upsetting for the other passengers. There is very little upside to this for the airline.
Dennis

 

[ClueByFour]

You obviously know what you are talking about technically, and I take no issue with you on that point. But what would be the benefit of actually using a GPSr in flight as a passenger? The entertainment value might be what I would gravitate toward as the flight crew makes their turns at VOR's or as the local flight center gives them instructions, but if I was an F/A, I might be a bit concerned if a passenger was using one in flight, given the paranoia over terrorism.

Me, I like to know where I am and what I'm looking at. The key word in your entire paragraph was paranoia. It's paranoia, nothing more, nothing less (especially when some airlines actually provide location information via their airshows).

Also, bear in mind that I can have a tiny GPSr hooked into my laptop that remarkably resembles a mouse--my point here is that one could very easily use a GPSr and the cabin crew would not know. The paranoia crap needs to end.

 

[jimntx]

Me, I like to know where I am and what I'm looking at. The key word in your entire paragraph was paranoia. It's paranoia, nothing more, nothing less (especially when some airlines actually provide location information via their airshows).

And, it is, in fact, all about you and what you want, isn't it? Statements such as this put you in the same category with those yahoos who travel once a year and then state that it's their "right" to carry whatever they want to onto the airplane. It's the new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution that states "Whatever I want to do is my bygod Constitutional right to do.

Also, bear in mind that I can have a tiny GPSr hooked into my laptop that remarkably resembles a mouse--my point here is that one could very easily use a GPSr and the cabin crew would not know.

Oh, gee. Do you get in the school bathroom with all the other 4th grade boys and brag about how you got away with giving the teacher the finger behind her back? Of course, the mark of real maturity is to break the rules as often as possible just to show that you can do it. Not.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The argument that a GPS used by a passenger might be a prelude to terrorism is disingenuous. On nice days (no cloud cover,) anyone with a reasonable map/atlas (and a fair comprehension of geography) can tell exactly where the airplane is by looking out the window. Should we ban windows? Ban books with maps? Why not just be completely safe and handcuff all passengers and place light-proof hoods over their heads?

Additionally, as airborne web access becomes more and more available, the information on the whereabouts of ANY flight over the United States is freely available from the FAA, including altitude, airspeed, direction, etc. So, if we ban GPS for paranoid terroristic thoughts, then we will have to ban/halt the soon-to-be widely available internet access, too. (BTW, that won't happen.)

Many common GPS units won't even work on a jet aircraft. They are programmed to stop functioning when a certain speed is reached. This is an intentional part of the programming by the manufacturer to preclude pilots from using a handheld GPS intended for ground/water use in their airplanes. It's intended to fend off lawsuits and liability. They figure that if the unit is moving at, say, over 150 mph, it's NOT in a car or boat and is not being used as intended.

That being said, I believe that the (rather expensive)units that are specifically designed for use in aircraft are all TSO'd (i.e. they meet the FAA's Technical Standards Orders.) This means that they have been tested to NOT interfere with aircraft systems and navigation, since they ARE an aircraft system in and of themselves.

Each airline does indeed have the right, unless prescribed by law, to dictate just what can and cannot be used on their aircraft. They can make this judgement as arbitrarily and whimsically as they care to. The banning of TSO'd GPS units in the cabin is just that. An arbitrary decision made because it's much easier to just say no than to think things through. (Few airline managers are able to think things through, BTW.) If there becomes a demand to use these "legal" GPS units, the airlines who allow their use will attract those customers, and the market will make the adjustments based on competition.

I travelled on Malaysia Ailines a few years back and found that portable CD players were banned! The F/A stopped me from using it and pointed it out in their in-flight magazine. Needless to say, I scratched that airline off my list. What utter nonsense! It makes every bit as much sense as banning the "legal" GPS units.

 

[ClueByFour]

And, it is, in fact, all about you and what you want, isn't it? Statements such as this put you in the same category with those yahoos who travel once a year and then state that it's their "right" to carry whatever they want to onto the airplane. It's the new interpretation of the U.S. Constitution that states "Whatever I want to do is my bygod Constitutional right to do.

Well, no.

My point (which your statement really does nothing to address) is that there is no security risk from a portable GPSr. None. Thus my original point stands: it's stupid to ban them.

Oh, gee. Do you get in the school bathroom with all the other 4th grade boys and brag about how you got away with giving the teacher the finger behind her back? Of course, the mark of real maturity is to break the rules as often as possible just to show that you can do it. Not.

Again: my point was to illustrate that banning portable GPSr units is not only stupid, but does nothing to improve security.

You seem to be very bitter about this, especially in light of the fact that I pointed out earlier in the thread that I always ask the Captain for permission before firing up my own GPSr.

Newsflash: attacking me is not going to change the fact that bans on things like this are stupid.

nycbusdriver's comments are right on the money. One of my two GPSrs probably had better data availble to it than much of the stuff in the front of the 733 and 734s (with the XM receiver running, you get NAV, NEXRAD, TAFs, METARs, etc) all in a fully legal TSO'd device. But hey, we don't want terrorists with Garmin T-shirs on....