AMR Fights To Quell Bankruptcy Fears

[Boomer]

Got to agree with you. Despite all the whining here about wages and benefits, the three above named airlines have been quite successful in avoiding major financial distress while maintaining descent wages and benefits for their employees. They should get gold stars for doing so.

It is probably a typo, but the quotation from your post above is eerily similar to the experience, "while maintaining descent wages and benefits for their employees."

It is entirely true that we have maintained our descent to lower altitudes and reduced expectations while fully maintaining a decent attitude with respect to safety.

 

[eolesen]

What great examples you give....How about in Europe where there is no Chapter 11...Your company fails, the doors close...No bankruptcy to give creditors cents on the dollar and no judge to give executives their greedy and inflated compensation....
How about a country like Japan, where an executive is looked at with scorn and shame if he or she does what is common practice in this country.

Say what you want about unionism, Eric...At least with unions there is no inequality with pay and compensation regarding sex, religion, race or sexual persuasion.

Not entirely true. There's been a lot of change in European business law in the past ten years, and the UK, France, and Germay now have the equivilent to Chapter 11. Prior to 2000, most companies who were declared insolvent were indeed liquidated, but the newer laws have basically taken away some rights of the creditors to liquidate and restored some control to the companies and/or an independent administrator whose first goal is to turn the company back into a going concern, as opposed to allowing creditors to seize assets.

You have sung this same song so many times the cob webs are old. You LOVE to ignore the CAPITALISM of Europe/Japan where they actually have a REAL middle class that doesn't live on credit (money they don't have). Or is it that you can't stand the fact that they wouldn't put up with the kind of unchecked piggish GREED that flows like the stench of an open sewer in corporate America.

Dispute the earnings ratio of European Labor to management vs. the VAST disparities in America. It is sickening when people only believe what they WANT to believe vs reality, then attempt to present the alternative is the Third world.

OK, let's look at Europe...

CEO pay... Average salary for European based CEO's was $12.5M in 2006 (and growing...), compared to $36.4M for the US. A sizeable gap, probably on the order of 10x the median household income for Europeans.

All this while union membership is dipping to its lowest levels in over 50 years. At the EU level, it's estimated only one out of every four workers are non-union, and that's expected to fall below 20% in the next three years.

The laws which have relaxed bankrupcy for corporations have also been relaxed for individuals. In some countries the rate of personal bankruptcies has tripled over a two to three year period. One report I've seen shows that as many as 6.5M people in the UK had to go into the equivelant of consumer credit counseling. Another shows UK consumers owe over £1.3 trillion on loans, credit cards and overdrafts.

Hardly what I'd consider the "REAL middle class that doesn't live on credit" you claimed. And why do I pick on the UK? They're the country with the highest ratio of unionized workers, at around 33% (although only 19% are in the private sector).


Europe becomes more and more like the US every year, which I'm sure many people there would be loathe to admit to.

 

[Hopeful]

Not entirely true. There's been a lot of change in European business law in the past ten years, and the UK, France, and Germay now have the equivilent to Chapter 11. Prior to 2000, most companies who were declared insolvent were indeed liquidated, but the newer laws have basically taken away some rights of the creditors to liquidate and restored some control to the companies and/or an independent administrator whose first goal is to turn the company back into a going concern, as opposed to allowing creditors to seize assets.

CEO pay? Average salary for European based CEO's was $12.5M in 2006 (and growing...), compared to $36.4M for the US. A sizeable gap, probably on the order of 10x the median household income for Europeans.

All this while union membership is dipping to its lowest levels in over 50 years. At the EU level, it's estimated only one out of every four workers are non-union, and that's expected to fall below 20% in the next three years.

You're the one actually more in line with Cuba and Venezuela with you anti union position.
You keep blaming unions for the woes of this industry, let alone the country. I can't believe you still defend any CEO making the money they make,,be it 12.5m or 36.4m...

Allow me to enlighten you on the reason for union membership decline...IT IS BECAUSE OF JOBS BEING SHIPPED OVERSEAS..... But according to you. all a union has to do is work for Chinese and Indian wages and we can keep the work here..

I am really done with you your pro "management can do no wrong" mentality...
It is quite sickening...

WOULD IT MAKE YOU HAPPY IF WE ALL AGREE TO WORK FOR MINIMUM WAGE UNLESS WE WEAR ARE EXECUTIVES? WOULD THAT BE ENOUGH FOR YOU?

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

eolesen,


And your REPLY to HOPEFUL is....?????????????????????????????

 

[Boomer]

Hopeful,

Don't forget to add in the bailout by the FED of Investment Banks and Brokerages for failed investments in equity instruments that will result in a loss of monetary worth closing on trillions.

The deleveraging currently ongoing will reduce total credit available despite the some $280 Billion Dollars injected by the Federal Reserve because thebanks can borrow without conditions.

You and I get 5.675 for FICOs' above 760 while the banks are borrowing the money for 2.575 when the historical spread between asked and proffered was around 1.5 in bad(recession) times and .5 in good times. We are financing the bailout of the markets.

We do not know the extent of the damage in the home equity lending markets; the delveraging there could bring another call from the capitalists for a bailout from the FED that you and I will pay for because we obeyed the d@mned rules.

 

[eolesen]

No, I don't keep blaming the unions for the woes of the country. I blame them for the woes of their members. What good have they really done in the past ten years? Seriously. How many jobs have been lost, and how much quality of life was preserved? Very little according to y'all.

Executives could work for zero salary, and unions would still wind up finding a way to price themselves out of jobs. That's more or less what the UAW has done. They've lost around 1M jobs in the past decade, and today have fewer than 500K members. That number will continue to shrink once the Big Three are done with their buyouts. And yes, even the UAW has signed off on the idea of B Scale workers and the manufacturing equal of OSM's & SRP's. They'll start out at about $30K per year. Not bad for an assembly line job...

And it's not just in unionized workforces. Programmers did it to themselves leading into the Dot Com bust. In 1999, I had entry level programmers demanding $80K starting salaries. Why? Some companies were actually paying that much.... It's no wonder companies moved IT jobs to places like Bangalore and Montevideo... Today, an entry level programmer is lucky to get $30K with a degree and maybe $50K with five to ten years experience. And wouldn't you know it, jobs are slowly moving back to the States as a result. Living on $50K a few years out of school isn't so bad. Maybe in NY or LA, but in the other 99.5% of the country, it's more than a fair wage.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

True to date, but the changes in the bankruptcy law passed in 2005 also changed the playing field as far as retention bonuses go. Some of the hurdles for a retention bonus include proof that there's a competing offer for the employee; otherwise, it has to conform to standards and limits that can't exceed 10 times the amount paid to other employees. In the cases where "KERP's" (Key Employee Retention Program) have been approved by the court, the standards and targets were such that simply showing up to work wouldn't trigger a payout. You actually had to do something. AA's current stock price scheme wouldn't pass muster from what I've seen.

The new law has already been tested and bonuses denied to a few non-airline bankruptcies.

While courts are limited in allowing KERPs because of the new law, they are not as restrained in allowing incentive based bonuses. In fact, incentive based bonuses have now become the norm in large reorganizations because they are not retentive based bonuses and, thus, do not fall under the new amendment to the bankruptcy law. Most courts will require the company to set benchmarks for the executives to reach before a payout is reached. So yes, the new law encourages Executives to actually do some "work," which is a good thing, but from what it appears those benchmarks are not always hard to reach (complete an asset sale, raise EBITDA to X, etc.). In fact, in many reorganizations, the judge will approve an incentive-based bonus because it was similar to ones used before bankruptcy.

So, if it were to file for bankruptcy, the executives *could* see payouts as high as they currently receive... and possibly more if the right circumstances presented themselves.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hopeful,

Don't forget to add in the bailout by the FED of Investment Banks and Brokerages for failed investments in equity instruments that will result in a loss of monetary worth closing on trillions.

The deleveraging currently ongoing will reduce total credit available despite the some $280 Billion Dollars injected by the Federal Reserve because thebanks can borrow without conditions.

You and I get 5.675 for FICOs' above 760 while the banks are borrowing the money for 2.575 when the historical spread between asked and proffered was around 1.5 in bad(recession) times and .5 in good times. We are financing the bailout of the markets.

We do not know the extent of the damage in the home equity lending markets; the delveraging there could bring another call from the capitalists for a bailout from the FED that you and I will pay for because we obeyed the d@mned rules.

I love how Eoleson and his ilk decry the evils of Socialism until they need Corporate Welfare to protect them from the downside of risk!

 

[North by Northwest]

Not entirely true. There's been a lot of change in European business law in the past ten years, and the UK, France, and Germay now have the equivilent to Chapter 11. Prior to 2000, most companies who were declared insolvent were indeed liquidated, but the newer laws have basically taken away some rights of the creditors to liquidate and restored some control to the companies and/or an independent administrator whose first goal is to turn the company back into a going concern, as opposed to allowing creditors to seize assets.



OK, let's look at Europe...

CEO pay... Average salary for European based CEO's was $12.5M in 2006 (and growing...), compared to $36.4M for the US. A sizeable gap, probably on the order of 10x the median household income for Europeans.

All this while union membership is dipping to its lowest levels in over 50 years. At the EU level, it's estimated only one out of every four workers are non-union, and that's expected to fall below 20% in the next three years.

The laws which have relaxed bankrupcy for corporations have also been relaxed for individuals. In some countries the rate of personal bankruptcies has tripled over a two to three year period. One report I've seen shows that as many as 6.5M people in the UK had to go into the equivelant of consumer credit counseling. Another shows UK consumers owe over £1.3 trillion on loans, credit cards and overdrafts.

Hardly what I'd consider the "REAL middle class that doesn't live on credit" you claimed. And why do I pick on the UK? They're the country with the highest ratio of unionized workers, at around 33% (although only 19% are in the private sector).


Europe becomes more and more like the US every year, which I'm sure many people there would be loathe to admit to.

Now, as you know, I like to deal in FACTS...not vague, assumptions based on "whatever I can pull over your eyes without a hyperlink".

Where did you get your numbers from? Whose Union membership are your referring, the U.S. or Europe, or Japan's? And of course you'd pick the UK vs. Germany. You state " one out of four is NON UNON as if that is a big number...lets look at it like this, 3/4ths of ALL EU workers belong to a Union. Now, that didn't hurt too bad, did it!

Moreover, the UK is NOT a part of the EU, and is practically a province of the U.S. as the Bank of England is so intertwined with the Fed (a NON governmental organization made up of private banks and it's major shareholders, one being the Bank of England) So, therefore, your comparison of the UK and the US is nil. This ponzi scheme was cooked up by the banks of the US and UK (that's why other European nations are not facing the same shock as the US and UK)

Your rationale for the VAST disparity in CEO / Labor in the U.S. compared to the other industrial power houses Germany, France, and Japan remains UNANSWERED. Why...because it is based on unadulterated, politically coordinated greed. Europeans still have the back bone to riot over filthy, greedy pigs stealing from their pockets.

Americans have been comatosed by credit cards, TV, and fast food (brainwashed into thinking they are "middle class" when in fact they are working slaves who have no money of their own (because they are all in debt, and told "debt is good BS") Middle Class people have more cold hard cash than they owe. They are generally cash and carry people. They are able to save because they do not live above their means, that is hard to swallow for a lot of Americans. But, remember, all this credit card scam only came about since the early 1980's. We now work MORE, and make LESS...while it is the opposite for thieves at the top.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economis..._all_the_p.html

http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2005/0...us-economy.html

 

[777 fixer]

Moreover, the UK is NOT a part of the EU, and is practically a province of the U.S. as the Bank of England is so intertwined with the Fed (a NON governmental organization made up of private banks and it's major shareholders, one being the Bank of England) So, therefore, your comparison of the UK and the US is nil. This ponzi scheme was cooked up by the banks of the US and UK (that's why other European nations are not facing the same shock as the US and UK)

Britain is a part of the EU, check your facts. What Britain does not use is the Euro, they still have the pound as the official currency.

And for your reading pleasure.

< http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g3FM_X8...cLBL0QD8VP28200 >

 

[North by Northwest]

Britain is a part of the EU, check your facts. What Britain does not use is the Euro, they still have the pound as the official currency.

And for your reading pleasure.

< http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g3FM_X8...cLBL0QD8VP28200 >

Britain is a part of the EU in name only. It does not follow the EUs monetary policy. It does not use the euro (as does every other EU member state) So, in my opinion it operates outside of the EU parameters. In fact, it joined with the understanding that it will operate independantly as much as possible. Just as it reluctantly agreed to follow the new EU open skies platform.

"Britain has clearly defined its position in favour of a Union of sovereign nations and against any moves towards a federal super-state.

And your reading pleasure: http://www.cer.org.uk/articles/barysch_keo...nomy_jun03.html

Then you can tell me how much the UK is a member of the EU ( as in name only) One UK bank alone: 100 Billion Pounds =roughly 225 Billion US

Furthermore, I hardly think an exposure of $4 billion (Germany) compares to $1.3 Trillion.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It does not use the euro (as does every other EU member state)

Only a little over half of the EU member countries use the Euro......

Jim

 

[brokenwrench]

You beat me by two minutes BB!

Anyway here is the link.

Currency of EU members

 

[eolesen]

Where did you get your numbers from? Whose Union membership are your referring, the U.S. or Europe, or Japan's? And of course you'd pick the UK vs. Germany. You state " one out of four is NON UNON as if that is a big number...lets look at it like this, 3/4ths of ALL EU workers belong to a Union. Now, that didn't hurt too bad, did it!

Thanks for finding a typo.

It's one out of four Europeans belong to a union. In other words, 3/4ths of all EU workers don't seem to need unions.

You want proof? Here y'go...

Moreover, the UK is NOT a part of the EU

Right. And Canada is part of the US.

Your rationale for the VAST disparity in CEO / Labor in the U.S. compared to the other industrial power houses Germany, France, and Japan remains UNANSWERED. Why...because it is based on unadulterated, politically coordinated greed. Europeans still have the back bone to riot over filthy, greedy pigs stealing from their pockets.

Uh, I never said there was a rationale for it, just as I don't see any rationale for paying entertainers or sports figures seven and eight figure salaries.

I'm just pointing out that the gap between CEO compensation and that of the so-called working man is growing in Europe as well. They also tend to offer lower base salaries and higher at-risk compensation in the forms of bonuses. It's not at all uncommon for bonuses to be 100% or more of base salary. I should know -- I work for a European company and my bonus target for this year is somewhere in the 25-40% range of base pay (and that's just at the MD level). That alone is more than some agents bring home in a year.... But the trade-off is if we don't make our margins (it only takes one or two customers canceling a contract or a bankruptcy to screw that up), there's no bonus and we live with just our base pay. If performance doesn't merit bonuses top to bottom, they don't get paid at all.

And that's OK. Should all companies follow that logic? Absolutely. I've said as much before when discussing the PUP and profit sharing for AMR.

 

[Bob Owens]

Only a little over half of the EU member countries use the Euro......

Jim

From the link:
"Cyprus and Malta joined the euro area in January 2008 and the nine other countries that have entered the EU since 2004 are committed to adopting the euro when they are ready."


How much of a paycut did AA employees in Europe take in 2003?

I believe that our Brittish counterparts earn the equivelent of over $90k with the weak dollar and all.