Kev3188
Veteran
What part(s) of my previous posts are you struggling to comprehend?
AMR Faces Union Stalemate in Bid for $800 Million Labor Savings
- Thread starter FWAAA
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Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
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yea..I'm surpirsed Delta even has a forum here because being non union there should be no dissent at all among the employees at DL! Since everything is peaches and cream at Delta, there should be no reason to discuss and debate anything.
Not sure if your post contained a wee bit of sarcasm but I've solicited Delta mechanics several times to air complaints or comments about being non-union. Few express any complaints about the working conditions, pay, or benefits, unlike AA who is in constant turmoil as we are certainly a disgruntled lot.
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
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Yes sarcasm indeed. But remember this, for decades, Delta was a better place to work because they made it that way in order to keep unions out!
Also remember how many people were let go when they downsized Atlanta and closed what is now AA's DWH hangar.
They had no union there and they still decimated Atlanta. Could they just not have unilaterally forced new workrules and payrates on the mechanics?
Kev3188
Veteran
Calm down, E.
I know which forum I'm on, but if someone brings something Widget related up, I'm going to respond.
There is much more dissent (across most workgroups) here than the DL cheerleaders would have you believe.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #112
And the statistics of reduction in the number of employees in the decade leading up to the DL-NW merger.
AA and CO, both around 25% (due to lack of filing for BK - CO grew into its reduced workforce, AA still has too many people for an airline of its size
DL- 37%
NW 40% - and those cuts disproportionately fell on the mechanic ranks
UA and US -both around 50%.
All of the airlines except for AA ended the decade with similar levels of productivity - amount of work performed per employee - at a system level.
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Those numbers are highly signfiicant.... CO managed to grow into its reduced workforce - didn't use BK - although it was still receiving benefits from its earlier BKs in terms of lower benefit costs.
DL cut the lowest percentage of employees and those cuts were spread across the company; around 10K DL employees left under voluntarily programs in the 2000s
NW entered the decade as the most productive airline - but the primary way they reduced costs was to pick a costly fight w/ one workgroup who bore the brunt of the costs
UA and US both spent 3 or more years in BK and both airlines now have employees paid below the industry average.
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CO was a very well run airline but they were also fiercely independent and as much of a niche airline as any int'l network carrier could be.... thus they did not have the depth to survive as global megacarriers began to form. Being good - but too small - won't succeed.
The key to adapting to new realities is to restructure QUICKLY, spread the pain when it has to happen, and then spread the gain when it returns.
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DL made the most dramatic transformation in its business model in the fastest amount of time to become what it needs to be in today's world - an airline with domestic depth and a global network, an employee group who understood the transition that had to take place and made the changes and then returned to running what historically has been a very well run airline, and a management team that has tried to rebuild the relationship that DL employees and mgmt once had - which as much like WN is about building a win-win environment for all involved, employee, mgmt, and stockholders.
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As the UA-CO and WN-FL mergers continue to progress, the multi-billion dollar question will be whether they can create what DL has created; 3 years after the merger, DL is running a stable company, at or near the top of the industry in most metrics (noting the significant improve in operational statistics that have occurred in just the past 3-4 months compared to a year ago), and DL appears well positioned to be able to adapt to whatever realities the industry or economy throws its way.
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Of course, Kev, not everyone is happy at DL... getting 80K people together is not going to be "fair" for everyone so the question becomes maximizing the best for the most... and w/ the representation issues unresolved, DL is as committed to guarding its culture which has helped to create its success as much as WN is of theirs
DL's strategy has clearly been that PMNW will not benefit from the "gain" as long as they hold onto representation and that gain has come from higher profit sharing, pay raises, and increased operational bonuses for frontline employees. But PMNW employees have experience no more 'pain' than any other DL employees. In fact, as far as the operation is concerned, ie the DTW-Asia growth, PMNW employees have benefitted from that - at PMNW contracted rates.
The "gain" part of the equation - just like at WN - is rooted in DL's ability to be flexible and adapt to the realities of the marketplace.
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It doesn't really whether you call it Delta or Air Americas or Global Aviation or whatever...
the point is that AA people SHOULD be looking at whatever works in the industry and figuring out how to find success picking whatever ingredients they can from what works with AA, any other airline, and any other aspects of business
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Given the highly competitive nature of the airline industry, you cannot ever talk about a company in isolation, and even less so now as AA is stuck in a perpetual cycle of inability to adapt and succeed.
Whatever life rafts, bits of knowledge, or examples of success should be thrown AA's way, even if it means some will have to swallow their pride and admit that someone else actually is doing a better job.
once again, it is no secret that the DL, B6, UA and WN forums here are fairly quiet compared with the AA and US forums... the health of those companies relative to AA and US just might be part of the reason.
southwind
Veteran
- Jan 22, 2008
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Only dissent at DL right now comes from former NW employees who are still represented by the AFA and IAM.
Had the rules changed, in their favor I might add, by the NMB and lost. Yet, here we are .................waiting on another NO-union vote !
Kev3188
Veteran
How is it exactly that you can claim to speak for every single PMDL employee?
BTW, you do know that campaigns for for ACS and Inflight were going on at DL before the merger, right?
BTW, you do know that campaigns for for ACS and Inflight were going on at DL before the merger, right?
southwind
Veteran
- Jan 22, 2008
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So, what population of DL employees do you think provide the majority of dissent ? I'll put my money on current AFA/IAM members !
Kev3188
Veteran
Again, how is it you can legitmately claim to speak for all PMDL employees?
JFK Fleet Service
Veteran
I know quite a few people in ACS that were hired in '97-'98 at JFK and they aren't the happiest of campers these days...
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #118
I can't tell what years you are comparing (the past decade or the 10 years ended with the year of the DL-NW merger?), but AA has reduced its workforce substantially in the past decade (2001-1010).
The average number of mainline fte employees in 2001 was 105,800 and the average number of mainline fte employees in 2010 was 65,500, for a reduction of 38%. The average number of AA mainline fte employees in 2011 won't vary substantially from 2010 at the current pace. The AA numbers can be found in the year-end earnings releases from January 16, 2002 and January 19, 2011.
Of course AA still has too many employees for its revenue and its network, but it's not accurate to claim that AA hasn't downsized its employee numbers by similar percentages to the other network competitors.
Frank Szabo
Veteran
At the behest of AMR's defacto wholly owned subsidiary, the Totally Worthless Union, employment numbers are being kept high to provide the dues income necessary to pay for the perks of the International kiddies, jeopardizing the jobs of thousands.
If American's management would grow a set and require everyone do at least 4 hours of work a day, my guess is 40% of the hourly/union payroll could be cut. If the same were to apply to "management", 80% of those fools could hit the street with no corporate damage resulting, that is, except for some egos and empires.
Eolesen is right - the company is so inbred in its thinking it couldn't make a profit if it were given to them.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
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FWAAA, I suspect using 2002 data is a bit skewed... That figure no doubt includes the TWA employees still on payroll, including MCIE and the STL hub, plus the ORF and STL call centers.
Since the network and fleet are more or less back where they were prior to TW, using data from Y2000 would probably give a more accurate view of things, but even that includes the last remaining vestiges of Reno and Business Express and the not-yet-neutered SJU hub.
AMR didnt' publish employee counts in the late 90's annual reports from what I recall (I don't see it in the Y2000 SEC filings), bur I'd estimate the airline is only down in size somewhere between 20 and 25% if you take the TWA bubble out of the picture.
I know, someone is going to come along and claim unions took all those cuts, but that's not entirely accurate.
Agents alone probably represent at least 2500-3000 of the cuts, half of that coming from the closing down of call centers at CVG, BDL, HNL, SJU and RNO. There were more than a half dozen Admirals Clubs closed (e.g. DTW, PHX, HOU, CLE, SJC, LGW, FRA and I suspect a few others internationally where oneworld partners had lounges) probably representing another 150-200.
AA also closed down city ticket offices after 9/11, which represented around 500-600 jobs across the country, and along with those, domestic agency & corporate sales offices were gone save for a few centralized locations in MIA, LAX, NYC, CHI, and DFW.
Since the network and fleet are more or less back where they were prior to TW, using data from Y2000 would probably give a more accurate view of things, but even that includes the last remaining vestiges of Reno and Business Express and the not-yet-neutered SJU hub.
AMR didnt' publish employee counts in the late 90's annual reports from what I recall (I don't see it in the Y2000 SEC filings), bur I'd estimate the airline is only down in size somewhere between 20 and 25% if you take the TWA bubble out of the picture.
I know, someone is going to come along and claim unions took all those cuts, but that's not entirely accurate.
Agents alone probably represent at least 2500-3000 of the cuts, half of that coming from the closing down of call centers at CVG, BDL, HNL, SJU and RNO. There were more than a half dozen Admirals Clubs closed (e.g. DTW, PHX, HOU, CLE, SJC, LGW, FRA and I suspect a few others internationally where oneworld partners had lounges) probably representing another 150-200.
AA also closed down city ticket offices after 9/11, which represented around 500-600 jobs across the country, and along with those, domestic agency & corporate sales offices were gone save for a few centralized locations in MIA, LAX, NYC, CHI, and DFW.
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