American Responds

[WeAAsles]

You seem to think that people will continue to fly at all costs. Flying isn't like buying a gallon of milk or putting gas in the car. Prices go up, and a proportionate number of people stop flying (business & leisure alike). Others, like me, stop paying for the higher flexi fares and start buying non-refundables in coach.

Hmmm.... You're overworked, underpaid, and on the verge of food stamps.

Yet, you want to fly off to Mexico... Figure out how you're going to pay for the hotel & meals yet?? They don´t accept food stamps...

And please, we all know you roll the dice every time you put your name on a standby list. You might want to save that $20 for when you get stuck overnight in CUN or a connecting hub because the flight went out full with paying customers.

And F for $20?? Reality is the FF's like me with free automatic upgrades will be sitting in the seat before you will....

Ah I'm sorry I must have really touched a nerve, poor baby. P.S. Mr ( I need to show I'm important) Advantage member. Some of us really know how to budget quite well and have other financial interests aside from the aviation industry. But then again from your quite numerous amount of posts I don't think that you may?

But in politeness which from your post you don't quite understand, have a very nice day.

 

[FWAAA]

Maybe one of the financial gurus or at least someone that knows airline fuzzy math accounting can help out and shed some light for us.

Is the pay/cost/benefits and bonus awards of the Supervisor, Administrtive Supervisor, Manager, Managing Director, Vice-President, Staff Assistant, Planner, Analyst, Web Desinger, EAP Personel, Medical Staff, Purchaser, Engineer, Marketing, Yield Management, Legal Counsel, Consulting Firms...ect, included in Labor Cost per ASM?

I'm pretty sure that each of those categories is included in wage/labor cost per ASM except for Outside legal counsel (not full-time employees) and Consulting Firms (would be in other expense). Lawyers who are employees of AMR or AA are included in the wage/labor cost computation.

The benefits and bonus programs of all employees would also be included.

If AA wanted to provide some useful transparency, it would break out management wages separately.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

They are the same. If wages are the highest, then labor costs are the highest. It's simple math....

Not necessarily.

Store A has ten retail clerks paid $8 per hour.

Store B has 6 retail clerks paid $10 per hour.

Both stores make the same in gross weekly sales, but Store A has higher labor costs while Store B has higher wages.

And then, we can go into executive compensation, and the creative (and sub rosa) accounting which accompanies it, which can also be part of labor costs. 🙂

 

[TWU informer]

I'm pretty sure that each of those categories is included in wage/labor cost per ASM except for Outside legal counsel (not full-time employees) and Consulting Firms (would be in other expense). Lawyers who are employees of AMR or AA are included in the wage/labor cost computation.

The benefits and bonus programs of all employees would also be included.

If AA wanted to provide some useful transparency, it would break out management wages separately.

Before I buy the Labor Cost per ASM arguement advanced by management, I would like to see the labor cost per ASM break down per:

TWU - Broke down by Labor Group

APFA

APA

Management - Borke down by Levels

Let's compare that to other carriers. My unresearched opinion is that this airline is so top heavy with over paid management that an accurate break down will show a much different story than we are currently led to believe.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

I'm pretty sure that each of those categories is included in wage/labor cost per ASM.

Of course, lets not forget that the cost per ASM goes up every time they park a plane in the kitty litter and take away capacity. The more planes they park, the higher the ASM will go. Understanding that some of that is offset with retirements, layoffs and such, but rarely do the two even out.

Pretty soon you won't have to do much sniffing to smell the rats.

 

[eolesen]

Before I buy the Labor Cost per ASM arguement advanced by management, I would like to see the labor cost per ASM break down per:

TWU - Broke down by Labor Group

APFA

APA

Management - Borke down by Levels

Let's compare that to other carriers. My unresearched opinion is that this airline is so top heavy with over paid management that an accurate break down will show a much different story than we are currently led to believe.

I'm sure someome has that breakdown, Dave, but you're never going to be able to accurately compare it to other carriers because they won't necessarily release anything to compare it with.

The required disclosures for Form 41 & SEC are total ASM's and the categories you see broken down on a quarterly earnings report. That's why labor cost per ASM is the benchmark used.

That said, even if it were provided, you'd be a little disappointed where M&E is concerned, because it is likely to prove the point that AMR's cost per ASM is higher. Those who outsource won't have comparable numbers because the expense is per piece as opposed to per employee.


And for Mr. Weasle... I lived thru the same paycuts (plus the loss of my wife's income when her job at AA was eliminated) and didn't lose either one on a salary equal to what a ramp CC with similar years of service brought home. Those I know who lost their houses were either living above their means or didn't manage their finances very well before the concessions. AMR's employees had over 18 months notice that there were going to be pay cuts. We knew in late 2000 that the tech bubble was over. Even with all the hoopla over TW-AA, it was obvious in March 2001 that things were about to get rocky. If you didn't see the writing on the wall after 9/11, you must be blind or otherwise impaired.

Politeness? Those who actually participate in a respectful discussion here earn my courtesy and my respect.

Those who simply rant and blame management for all the problems in their life rarely listen to reason, let alone return the favor of being polite, so why should I bother?

 

[TWU informer]

"E",

I cannot accept your assumptions as fact. I do understand that other carriers dropped their defined pensions in BK, and they outsource much overhaul. I tire of the use of economic statements and claims that cannot be verified. When it comes to negotiations we should have facts and figures that can be confirmed and verified instead of standard company propaganda.

Why should we accept a change in our pay system that would be tied to performance when even you admit we could never accurately compare to other carriers by comparing apples and oranges? Doesnt that leave us at a terrible disadvantage and basically at the whim of a fuzzy math bean counter?

I still say this carrier is severely over managed and a huge amount of labor cost per ASM savings could be made by addressing this issue. Of course we cannot compare size of management force either now can we?

AA paid millions in consulting firms to implement worker based programs that were to bring the decision making to the lower levels of the work force. Pffftt, today the top down management control is as broad based as ever in my 25 years of service.

We have had zero information to review during these negotiations. The Ultra Secret Negotiations are doing nothing more than raising the lack of trust in the process.

If we are over paid due to keeping our defined pension then show us the facts. And I mean facts that accurately compare our compensation package to the competition. Every time AA puts out some chart or graph it is quickly proven to be false and full of inaccurate data.

I can see that a return of all concessions may be difficult if not impossible to obtain, but the recent proposals are not making any gains in one area without AA asking for greater concessions in another area. In other words it appears to me that every AA proposal to date is a concession when comparing the total of all gains to the total of all losses. Surely AA doesn't expect any work group to go further backwards while management has been given bonus awards and many have been retuned to pre-concession pay levels.

I honestly think the secret negotiations are designed to leave those that question management figures and assertions out of the process. And leave the discussions to those they are courting and manipulating with lies and propaganda.

I am working diligently on my plan to leave this airline and this industry. Until then I expect verifiable facts, and discussions that not the same manipulative nature of the past. Otherwise, I will be fan of scorched earth policies to take this management team and the carrier to the end game.

 

[Skymess]

I can see that a return of all concessions may be difficult if not impossible to obtain, but the recent proposals are not making any gains in one area without AA asking for greater concessions in another area. In other words it appears to me that every AA proposal to date is a concession when comparing the total of all gains to the total of all losses. Surely AA doesn't expect any work group to go further backwards while management has been given bonus awards and many have been retuned to pre-concession pay levels.

I honestly think the secret negotiations are designed to leave those that question management figures and assertions out of the process. And leave the discussions to those they are courting and manipulating with lies and propaganda.

I completely agree with you here.

The company seems bent on negotiating more concessions and the only union that seems to be fighting this concept is the APA. All of the stuff I keep getting from APFA and TWU seems to be touting company propaganda which is starting to really anger me.

We gave and now we get back. No more concessions.

All the signs are there that my union is getting ready to sell us out again. They are going to get us a bad contract, we're going to vote it down, and we're going to be stuck with this concession RPA for a total of 7 years (or more) while we elect new people and start all over again. I can already see it. :rant:

 

[eolesen]

You don't need to accept my assumptions as fact, but I think you do need to question what good it will really do for you to have verifiable figures.

My honest opinion is that continuing to allow your union to be negotiating with lay people is why you keep getting screwed.

Take some of the money funding nifty t-shirts and lap dances for convention delegates and international officials, and get some professional negotiators who not only know how to get the type of data points you desire, but also know how to extract some added value into your contract.

The paltry number of stock options you got in 2003 vs. what you should have recouped is just one example of the TWU being outclassed at the negotiation table. Overlooking the true value of what management's variable comp plans held is another.

You and others often claim management got everything back, but only begrudgingly recognize that a good portion of that came via variable comp. If the unions weren't so incredibly wary of having variable compensation, perhaps you would have shared in the riches a little more.

Getting a good team of negotiators who know how to hedge this for you is the only way the TWU or any other union is ever going to have a truly fair and equitable contract.

Heck, you could even take it a step further... If the UAW is able to negotiate a contract for three manufacturers, why can't the three unions on property consolidate their resources, and negotiate as a unified front? Some here try to argue that AMR uses divide and conquer, so why not unite, and minimize that? Just a thought....

 

[Little Jimmy]

We'll get em' next time , brother.
If we don't get a contract soon, Ill pay for another full page newspaper add (on your dime of course). The mighty strike snake is poised and ready to strike!
HISSSSSS....HISSSSSSS...HISSSSS
BTW your not the highest paid. I'M THE HIGHEST PAID! 200K plus baby!

 

[JAFA]

When it comes to negotiations we should have facts and figures that can be confirmed and verified instead of standard company propaganda.

OK, you win. Here come the facts. To keep with the KISS principle we'll compare FSC starting pay and CC pay so we have the 2 extremes of the contract.

NW - 9.17 / 19.31 [post="0"]http://www.iam143.org/PDF%20Files/nwESSC2008.pdf[/post]
AS - 9.76 / 22.89 [post="0"]http://www.iam143.org/PDF%20Files/2006%20RSSA%20CBA%2010132006.pdf[/post]
UA - 9.93 / 21.38 [post="0"]http://www.iam141.org/PDF/United/Schedule%20A%20Ramp.pdf[/post]
US - 9.29 / 19.00 (a little harder this is FSC top out, CC is not available) [post="0"]http://www.iam141.org/USA%20Tentative%208.11.08.htm[/post]

AA - 8.64 / 23.25 sorry no public link but this is straight from the contract.

So what do our "facts" show? OK at starting pay AA is lowest, but since no one at starting pay took the pay cuts in 2003 let's look at crew chief. Oh look, AA has the highest pay of the 4 largest unionized (CO and DL are non union and therefore have no contract info published for public consumption) airlines. Sounds like the company is telling the straight story here, at least as far as fleet service is concerned.

Just a little something to chew on.

 

[Bob Owens]

First of all, you have this idea that SWA wages are great, but totally ignore the differences in their benefits / retirement packages.
If you want SWA wages, then take their workrules and benefits. That's where your "it's management's job" argument stops, because wages and benefits are entirely within the realm of the contract.

Well you have cited SWA "workrules and benifits" time and time again and everytime I ask you to cite one workrule that the TWU represnted mechanics have that puts AA at a disadvantage, you have yet to come up with one valid point. As far as benifits it has been shown that AA underfunded pension costs AA less than SWA DC pension per person.

I suspect if SWA tried to adopt AA's workrules and benefits with SWA wages, they'd be in worse economic shape than AA is.

Once again, what are these "workrules and benifits"?

 

[WeAAsles]

What's the difference if we are the top paid in the industry anyway. Remember it was a race to the bottom just a few years ago. Should we wait for other airline workers to be better paid than us before we ask for something back? It was all concessionary, and someone has to get the ball rolling to restoration. Alot of anaylists are saying the airline industry stands to make RECORD profits in 09. I think the real people who have made that possible are owed something in return for that result? At the end of the day I'm a contract worker and all contracts are renegotiated after a period of time.

 

[FWAAA]

What's the difference if we are the top paid in the industry anyway. Remember it was a race to the bottom just a few years ago. Should we wait for other airline workers to be better paid than us before we ask for something back? It was all concessionary, and someone has to get the ball rolling to restoration. A lot of anaylists are saying the airline industry stands to make RECORD profits in 09. I think the real people who have made that possible are owed something in return for that result? At the end of the day I'm a contract worker and all contracts are renegotiated after a period of time.

Let's not count those profits too soon, Ray Neidl; oil for October delivery just jumped $25/bbl today up to $130/bbl before settling on the day up $16/bbl to $121/bbl:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080922/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices

Good thing that contract expired today. Oil for November was up about $6/bbl.

 

[Bob Owens]

Let's not count those profits too soon, Ray Neidl; oil for October delivery just jumped $25/bbl today up to $130/bbl before settling on the day up $16/bbl to $121/bbl:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080922/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices

Good thing that contract expired today. Oil for November was up about $6/bbl.

The spike was supposedly triggered by a selloff on Wall Street today with the money going towards oil.