donttouchthebeauty
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- Jan 11, 2006
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Well at least not yet anyway... We'll see what the pilots give up this time around.. It will be an interesting circus to watch no doubt..
American Eagle For Sale
- Thread starter MiAAmi
- Start date
Well at least not yet anyway... We'll see what the pilots give up this time around.. It will be an interesting circus to watch no doubt..
Not only that, but an independent Eagle couldn't even fly them for another airline even if it could get a contract for them - the APA has already grieved that issue and won (Chautauqua and their ERJ170s that had to be transferred to another Republic sub when the APA complained).
I assume that Hopeful already knows all the APA scope clause - and that he is assuming that the APA would roll over and give it up if Eagle were divested.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
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Picture this....
Eagle becomes a standalone entity with its own governance and potential stock.
Once that's done, Simmons and Executive certificates become separate subsidiaries of Emancipated Eagle.
Simmons is the unit who maintains the Eagle branded flying. Executive is free to move about the country, either as private label flying similar to what ExpressJet is doing, or as someone else's feed traffic.
Another thing to consider in the timing..... Mesa. They've got a $90M Sword of Damoclese right now, and I'd expect the award to be upheld on appeal. There's a similar exposure hanging when the Aloha lawsuit moves forward next spring. It's entirely possible that Mesa could be forced into bankruptcy due to liquidity.
The argument that it was all precipitated by FL Group is laughable. This has been considered and discussed openly for several years. Remember when Executive was supposed to be sold off to Caribbean investors, but later backed away from? AMR realised just how entangled Eagle was administratively when that was being proposed, and that's when the process of untangling Eagle really started.
Eagle becomes a standalone entity with its own governance and potential stock.
Once that's done, Simmons and Executive certificates become separate subsidiaries of Emancipated Eagle.
Simmons is the unit who maintains the Eagle branded flying. Executive is free to move about the country, either as private label flying similar to what ExpressJet is doing, or as someone else's feed traffic.
Another thing to consider in the timing..... Mesa. They've got a $90M Sword of Damoclese right now, and I'd expect the award to be upheld on appeal. There's a similar exposure hanging when the Aloha lawsuit moves forward next spring. It's entirely possible that Mesa could be forced into bankruptcy due to liquidity.
The argument that it was all precipitated by FL Group is laughable. This has been considered and discussed openly for several years. Remember when Executive was supposed to be sold off to Caribbean investors, but later backed away from? AMR realised just how entangled Eagle was administratively when that was being proposed, and that's when the process of untangling Eagle really started.
The 6% cap is on "commuter airlines" not specifically Eagle. Also the cap has been violated for years but the twu refuses to enforce it. According to Donny V., we've been stuck at 5.99% for the past 6 years, while Eagle has had double digit growth each year, and AA has shrunk.
Colby
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- Sep 30, 2003
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NewHampshire Black Bears
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Obviously, every carrier needs to "feed itself" !!
With that said, should AA Ideally, rid themselves of these "GD" mini/micro jets ??
Get the E-jets on the property asap ??
KEEP the E-jets in house(AA), (Bye Bye 6% cap), and negotiate pay rates for "under 100 seats" with APA/APFA ??
Seems to me, that AA was doing something similiar(to the above proposed), back when they we're flying the BAC-111.
With that said, should AA Ideally, rid themselves of these "GD" mini/micro jets ??
Get the E-jets on the property asap ??
KEEP the E-jets in house(AA), (Bye Bye 6% cap), and negotiate pay rates for "under 100 seats" with APA/APFA ??
Seems to me, that AA was doing something similiar(to the above proposed), back when they we're flying the BAC-111.
T
The Goose
Guest
That's how I was thinking also - AMR won't sell Eaglet outright, rather, spin it off to the shareholders. That would seem to be the way Arpey and his gang of thieves can reap the most in 'bonuses' and screw the employees at the same time.
av8trxx
Member
- Feb 20, 2003
- 23
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Maybe the sale was all part of a master plan hatched years ago.......
Reposted from the AE pilots board:
"Not long after the AA Flight Attendant Strike in November of 1993 then AMR CEO Bob Crandall made an informational presentation to investment bankers in New York updating them on where AMR was and where it was going. During that briefing he foresaw into the future, more then 10 years out, American Airlines being out of the domestic flying business with the exception of long haul transcons and inter-hub flying. He knew that since the MD-80 fleet was aquired over a relatively short period of time it would be retired over an equally short period of time . And when that time came he felt that would be the perfect time to build Eagle into AMR's domestic airline.
In 1994 during the Q&A of a speech given by Bob Crandall at the Wings Club in New York City he was asked about selling American Eagle. Crandall replied that anything and everything that AMR had was always for sale for the right price. At the end of the speech then United Airlines CEO Stephen Wolf went up to Crandall and said "How much for Eagle?" Crandall laughed and said "You can't affored it, Stephen!" thus indicating the value the AMR placed on American Eagle.
Fast forward to 2003... Peter B0wler was quoted in the Dallas Morning News as saying "I think our value is not fully recognized. We've been intentionally low key the last several years, but now we've got the foundation in place to be the kind of carrier we want to be." Is that carrier one that has always been intended to be spun off?
There is no question that the divide between AMR and APA makes the Grand Canyon look like a crack in the sidewalk. And I think AMR realizes that as noble as it was to stay out of bankruptcy post 9/11 it was a competitive mistake. I can see AMR spinning off Eagle in 2008 so as to have it out from a potential bankruptcy in the event that APA pilot negotiations turn sour in early 2009. I believe AMR will either force APA into further concessions or it will drive them to a strike.
An APA strike will give AMR the opportunity to, for all intents and purposes through bankruptcy, walk away from domestic flying and it's scope restrictions. AMR will then be able to bring American Airlines out of banckruptcy as what Robert Crandall envisioned in the early 1990's, a profitable Long Haul Transcon and International Airline. At the same time Eagle will be in need of replacing it's 50 seat and below aircraft. It's highly unlikely that Eagle will be replacing those aircraft with more 50 seat regional jets. Expect to see Eagle replace the the 50 seat RJs with 90-130 seat replacement aircraft and picking up the domestic flying that AA walked away from."
Reposted from the AE pilots board:
"Not long after the AA Flight Attendant Strike in November of 1993 then AMR CEO Bob Crandall made an informational presentation to investment bankers in New York updating them on where AMR was and where it was going. During that briefing he foresaw into the future, more then 10 years out, American Airlines being out of the domestic flying business with the exception of long haul transcons and inter-hub flying. He knew that since the MD-80 fleet was aquired over a relatively short period of time it would be retired over an equally short period of time . And when that time came he felt that would be the perfect time to build Eagle into AMR's domestic airline.
In 1994 during the Q&A of a speech given by Bob Crandall at the Wings Club in New York City he was asked about selling American Eagle. Crandall replied that anything and everything that AMR had was always for sale for the right price. At the end of the speech then United Airlines CEO Stephen Wolf went up to Crandall and said "How much for Eagle?" Crandall laughed and said "You can't affored it, Stephen!" thus indicating the value the AMR placed on American Eagle.
Fast forward to 2003... Peter B0wler was quoted in the Dallas Morning News as saying "I think our value is not fully recognized. We've been intentionally low key the last several years, but now we've got the foundation in place to be the kind of carrier we want to be." Is that carrier one that has always been intended to be spun off?
There is no question that the divide between AMR and APA makes the Grand Canyon look like a crack in the sidewalk. And I think AMR realizes that as noble as it was to stay out of bankruptcy post 9/11 it was a competitive mistake. I can see AMR spinning off Eagle in 2008 so as to have it out from a potential bankruptcy in the event that APA pilot negotiations turn sour in early 2009. I believe AMR will either force APA into further concessions or it will drive them to a strike.
An APA strike will give AMR the opportunity to, for all intents and purposes through bankruptcy, walk away from domestic flying and it's scope restrictions. AMR will then be able to bring American Airlines out of banckruptcy as what Robert Crandall envisioned in the early 1990's, a profitable Long Haul Transcon and International Airline. At the same time Eagle will be in need of replacing it's 50 seat and below aircraft. It's highly unlikely that Eagle will be replacing those aircraft with more 50 seat regional jets. Expect to see Eagle replace the the 50 seat RJs with 90-130 seat replacement aircraft and picking up the domestic flying that AA walked away from."
T
The Goose
Guest
Your post makes mores sense than anything I've read for a while and shows the chess game the execs might be willing to play.
North by Northwest
Veteran
America's airline management has taken an "out side of the box" approach to the current state of affairs. That is where Bankruptcy came in. This was their opportunity to up the stakes and get rich.
It is now time for US aviation employees to realize the stakes have changed. We MUST adapt and change as well. No longer can we think as individual carriers, that is what their new strategy is built upon. We must now think as they do, if they can use bankruptcy (with the government's backing) to strip employees of 65 years of labor gains, we must fight back in the same manner.
It is my belief that every airline Union in America must fight to remove the NO STRIKE (a by product of the mid 1980s, right about when the pay of airline CEO's begin to RISE) clause in their contracts. They must then use the "solidarity" threat to force a return to an equal footing for this industry. If the US gov. can support a status quo of 500% pay difference in management to labor, we must force change and prove to the country, from a united front that a return to pay ratios commensurate to the 1980s, and as they exist in Europe TODAY, is in the best interest of this "vital" industry of the US economy.
The ability to stage a sympathy strike across the nation will alter the unchecked financial rape that has occurred over the last 20 years.
It is now time for US aviation employees to realize the stakes have changed. We MUST adapt and change as well. No longer can we think as individual carriers, that is what their new strategy is built upon. We must now think as they do, if they can use bankruptcy (with the government's backing) to strip employees of 65 years of labor gains, we must fight back in the same manner.
It is my belief that every airline Union in America must fight to remove the NO STRIKE (a by product of the mid 1980s, right about when the pay of airline CEO's begin to RISE) clause in their contracts. They must then use the "solidarity" threat to force a return to an equal footing for this industry. If the US gov. can support a status quo of 500% pay difference in management to labor, we must force change and prove to the country, from a united front that a return to pay ratios commensurate to the 1980s, and as they exist in Europe TODAY, is in the best interest of this "vital" industry of the US economy.
The ability to stage a sympathy strike across the nation will alter the unchecked financial rape that has occurred over the last 20 years.
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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It's definitely not a new development by any means....
It's a good theory, but Pan Am and to a lesser degree TWA tried the same thing -- long haul carrier only. It didn't work then, and I don't think it would work today.
The true conspirist in me says AA is setting the stage for a pre-packaged bankruptcy. If they go thru the process of separating Eagle and AAdvantage now, it's also one or two less things for the banks to try and attach leins to later. It also makes it less attractive for someone else to buy up AMR.
Scope is one of the key issues that are handcuffing AMR from having the same level of recovery that some of the other carriers have enjoyed... Take that away either at the negotiating table or in court, and AMR's future looks a lot different. I don't give it any chance of being modified contractually, so that leaves bankruptcy.
PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH
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- Oct 9, 2003
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So, the TWU gave us all these concessions 
and now we'll still get a bankruptcy anyway .
All right! Way to go TWU! The TWU is NUMBER ONE!
and now we'll still get a bankruptcy anyway .All right!
Way to go TWU! The TWU is NUMBER ONE! 
Nor'Easta
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NewHampshire Black Bears
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- Aug 20, 2002
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OK.."E", I'm with you so far.
Think back to the days, when AA used the BAC-111 to fly the "dinky" routes.
Along those lines, If AA can dump AAdvantage, and Eagle as successfully as Sabre, then go for it.
I agree with you, AA still needs to "feed itself" IN-HOUSE, prompting the Need for E-jets, very soon(like YESTERDAY).
Go FORWARD, with the Intention of going into BK, ...............But.............if, while traveling along that road, AA is able to reach agreements with APA/APFA for things like payrates for E-jets, then so be it !
Your turn !
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