American Airlines is set to resume contract negotiations with pilots

[737823]

Don't count on it.

Besides the immediate loss of staffing, one 777 or 767 captain retirement triggers dozens of training cycles. It will take MONTHS to recover. Furloughee recalls have been halted, as there is no possible way to train them now with all of the other training cycles scheduled.

This IS a big deal. AA is asking for "relief" from APA in more than one way (increased MMAX, deferred vacations, allowing "retired" pilots to fly, extra pay etc..). They are in big trouble staffing wise, and this could be the leverage that the pilot group needs to close out section 6 with a very good contract.

Give us a fantastic TA to vote on, and the company can get whatever relief it needs. No contract = NO RELIEF.

Management will prevail. AA's current contract and cost structure is already crippling the company so any gains you may make will only be intermediate. New payrates, scope, and other work rules will be IMPOSED by the courts

Josh

 

[eolesen]

Nobody prevails. Both sides lose.

 

[Hopeful]

You and E. should run AA because you guys have all the answers. You guys just can't admit that management is scrambling and the pilots have leverage because of the staffing issues.....because if management had leverage, they wouldn't be begging the pilots for relief. Kudos to the pilots union for instructing their members to get out while they can to preserve $$$$M in lump sum pensions. I love it!!!

I have to disagree with you, Strikeforce....Any pilot who is eligible to bail is bailing because of the uncertainty which will have an adverse impact on their pensions. But make no mistake about it...In bankruptcy, the pilots will be affected beyond reason. SCOPE will be eliminated with the stroke of a pen...Salaries? Well, pilots are near or at the top of the hourly scale in their equipment types.
Scheduling and flying hour rules will be written at AA's bequest!
All along, we have been hearing that AA's cost advantage is because we do our own OH.....I got news for you.....SCOPE is an even bigger disadvantage to the company than OH.

basically...The Party's Over for pilots....

 

[Super FLUF]

I have to disagree with you, Strikeforce....Any pilot who is eligible to bail is bailing because of the uncertainty which will have an adverse impact on their pensions. But make no mistake about it...In bankruptcy, the pilots will be affected beyond reason. SCOPE will be eliminated with the stroke of a pen...Salaries? Well, pilots are near or at the top of the hourly scale in their equipment types.
Scheduling and flying hour rules will be written at AA's bequest!
All along, we have been hearing that AA's cost advantage is because we do our own OH.....I got news for you.....SCOPE is an even bigger disadvantage to the company than OH.

basically...The Party's Over for pilots....

I love how our fellow union "brothers" are salivating for our demise even more than management.

I've got news for ya pal. If the "party's over" for us, it will be for everyone else as well.

 

[wrencher]

I love how our fellow union "brothers" are salivating for our demise even more than management.

I've got news for ya pal. If the "party's over" for us, it will be for everyone else as well.

I have to agree with you Super Fluf after the AA/TWA merger I have to admit I've never seen or heard so much bickering and cutthroat tactics among all the work groups than whats been going on for the past 10 years with AA. The way the contract reads is so one sided for the company that it's easy for the TWU to represent us because they just blame a mediator or the company when things go south. Don't worry all you non-card signers the TWU will represent you and collect your dues all the way down to minimum wage.

 

[Mr Red]

I have to disagree with you, Strikeforce....Any pilot who is eligible to bail is bailing because of the uncertainty which will have an adverse impact on their pensions. But make no mistake about it...In bankruptcy, the pilots will be affected beyond reason. SCOPE will be eliminated with the stroke of a pen...Salaries? Well, pilots are near or at the top of the hourly scale in their equipment types.
Scheduling and flying hour rules will be written at AA's bequest!
All along, we have been hearing that AA's cost advantage is because we do our own OH.....I got news for you.....SCOPE is an even bigger disadvantage to the company than OH.

basically...The Party's Over for pilots....

All wages can be found on the internet. I've got news for u ,AA workers are not at the top of anything !

 

[Hopeful]

All wages can be found on the internet. I've got news for u ,AA workers are not at the top of anything !

I said NEAR OR AT TOP.....And was only referring to pilots!

 

[Super FLUF]

I said NEAR OR AT TOP.....And was only referring to pilots!

And you would not even be in the ballpark.

"Low cost" Southwest captains make $210/hr. for flying a smaller version of the 737. AA captains make $166/hr. FO's make a commensurate % of both wages.

How about the guys flying around boxes? (Huge responsibility there - flying priceless boxes is far more challenging than flying around worthless human lives.) Fed Ex narrowbody captains pull down $216/hr. UPS captains, no matter what equipment, pull down $252/hr.

To make your statement true, it would have to be worded as follows:

"AA pilots pay, when compared to bankrupt airlines or small airlines like Spirit, are at or near the top".

Woo-hoo!!

Lucky us!

 

[Hopeful]

And you would not even be in the ballpark.

"Low cost" Southwest captains make $210/hr. for flying a smaller version of the 737. AA captains make $166/hr. FO's make a commensurate % of both wages.

How about the guys flying around boxes? (Huge responsibility there - flying priceless boxes is far more challenging than flying around worthless human lives.) Fed Ex narrowbody captains pull down $216/hr. UPS captains, no matter what equipment, pull down $252/hr.

To make your statement true, it would have to be worded as follows:

"AA pilots pay, when compared to bankrupt airlines or small airlines like Spirit, are at or near the top".

Woo-hoo!!

Lucky us!

Southwest has one aircraft type......One size fits all..

Now let's talk about SCOPE and minimum flight hours!

 

[Mach85ER]

I said NEAR OR AT TOP.....And was only referring to pilots!

Incorrect. AA pilots are in the middle of the pack at best. Most members of other airline pilot groups are also at the same 12 year pay scale as the AA pilots.

A few comparisons for 737/A320 Captain hourly rates:

Alaska: $177
Continental: $150 (set to go up)
Delta: $174
Airtran: $163
JetBlue: $159
Spirit: $164 (A319/Less seats)
Southwest: $210
AA: $165

Additional info can be compared at Airline financials

There are some productivity issues that can be solved due to the future retirements, and also work for the pilots and the company. I am also pretty sure that unlike 2003, if it came to CHP11, we will see a real backlash if there is an attempt to cut pilot pay by a larger percentage just because there is a feeling that they make more money. Same goes for any "me too" clauses. More and more guys are fed up with protecting the retirment for a few. most of the FO's realize they stand a equal chance of making close to what they are now in a few years even with a CHP7 at AA.

Unlike the past, there isn't an infinite well of qualified pilots on the market. There are also many viable options worldwide for jobs that in many cases pay equal or more than AA. In the past, these jobs were paid less and with worse working conditions. That is changing rapidly and given the aircraft order numbers worldwide, I think you could see AA and other US carriers paying through the nose from widebody and A320/737 Captains collecting a type rating and leaving for better pastures if a 113C low ball payrate is enforced.

 

[jimntx]

Unlike the past, there isn't an infinite well of qualified pilots on the market. There are also many viable options worldwide for jobs that in many cases pay equal or more than AA. In the past, these jobs were paid less and with worse working conditions. That is changing rapidly and given the aircraft order numbers worldwide, I think you could see AA and other US carriers paying through the nose from widebody and A320/737 Captains collecting a type rating and leaving for better pastures if a 113C low ball payrate is enforced.

Amen. The airlines also used to be able to count on military retirees who were in their late 30's and early 40's for an endless supply of trained, highly qualified pilots. My nephew is a colonel in the Air Force. He told me that he and several friends were talking about "life after the Air Force." (He graduated from the Academy in 1994; so, his 20 years is going to be up in just a couple of years.) None of them expressed any interest in working for any U.S. commercial airline other than Southwest. The bickering among the pilot corps in some airlines, the animosity between pilots and management in others, the pay rates, the uncertain futures in most airlines just doesn't interest any of them. In fact, my nephew is even thinking of re-upping even though he used to say he was leaving the Air Force at 20 years and 1 day.

 

[Hopeful]

Incorrect. AA pilots are in the middle of the pack at best. Most members of other airline pilot groups are also at the same 12 year pay scale as the AA pilots.

A few comparisons for 737/A320 Captain hourly rates:

Alaska: $177
Continental: $150 (set to go up)
Delta: $174
Airtran: $163
JetBlue: $159
Spirit: $164 (A319/Less seats)
Southwest: $210
AA: $165

Additional info can be compared at Airline financials

There are some productivity issues that can be solved due to the future retirements, and also work for the pilots and the company. I am also pretty sure that unlike 2003, if it came to CHP11, we will see a real backlash if there is an attempt to cut pilot pay by a larger percentage just because there is a feeling that they make more money. Same goes for any "me too" clauses. More and more guys are fed up with protecting the retirment for a few. most of the FO's realize they stand a equal chance of making close to what they are now in a few years even with a CHP7 at AA.

Unlike the past, there isn't an infinite well of qualified pilots on the market. There are also many viable options worldwide for jobs that in many cases pay equal or more than AA. In the past, these jobs were paid less and with worse working conditions. That is changing rapidly and given the aircraft order numbers worldwide, I think you could see AA and other US carriers paying through the nose from widebody and A320/737 Captains collecting a type rating and leaving for better pastures if a 113C low ball payrate is enforced.

Ok, I stand corrected...the reason I am mentioning SCOPE is because this forum has become a "AA IS AT A LABOR COST DISADVANTAGE BECAUSE OF IN HOUSE OVERHAUL" blame game.
I happen to believe that SCOPE and scheduling and hours also give AA labor cost disadvantage as well. Not the SOLE reason, but a contributing factor.

I am all for agreeing to changes that make AA more competitive in exchange for protecting all those currently on payroll. this is not about "I GOT MINE," but more about I have 20, 30, 40years invested and have to worry about surviving in retirement because 20, 30, and 40 years ago I was PROMISED a pension in exchange for many dedicated years of workling.

New hires will have their own choices to make about hiring on with AA based on whatever conditions AA is offering.

But is seems, that for the MOST part, AA wants to further impact current experienced employees and stilll expect loyalty and dedication.

 

[jimntx]

But is seems, that for the MOST part, AA wants to further impact current experienced employees and stilll expect loyalty and dedication.

Well, smart boy. Do you have any other ideas on how to pay for the next round of executive bonusses? Thoses pensions are standing in the way of a major executive windfall.

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA has no choice but to extend cuts into the ranks of existing employees as options run out.
Yes, I do believe that the vast majority of AA employees would have accepted a "protect me and my career even if it means changing expectations for new hires" but much of AA's labor unions have not operated under that philosophy and now the company will likely erode pay and scope in order to keep the company afloat.
It's hard to know where UA/CO will come out in terms of scope for pilots; CO pilots were very protective of scope but had a very small domestic operation so it was less of an issue. UA can't operate under the same type of scope restrictions CO pilots had.
DL pilots gave up a lot of scope but have been rewarded w/ pay in return for more valuable int'l flying.
You can pick where you think AA should go but it is not realistic to think that AA pilots will keep their current level of scope without taking cuts in pay - because it is the scope relaxation that has allowed DL and UA to maintain their domestic market size and to use two class RJs to expand into new markets.


Jim,
AA would have to pay retirement benefits one way or the other - at least based on what every other peer does in the industry. Dumping the DB plans for defined contribution plans may not reduce AA's costs at all - or not that much.
Of course the longer the stock market stays in the toilet, the more costly DB plans become.

 

[Super FLUF]

OK, so someone please lay out the specifics on how outsourcing more flying (loosening scope) will be a huge win for the employees and company.