American Airline Pilots' Slowdown Wins a Victory, Despite What You Read in the DMN

[1AA]

They are going to "piss" their selves and their and their union into an injunction. Is there a word to describe anger more then pissed? Wait till the suspensions begin.

So let me get this straight. Either the company suspends you for writing up a discrepancy or the FAA suspends your tickets for not writing up a discrepancy. Did I get this correct? Please explain this from you Non-Pilots and Non AA employees.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I need to learn how to do those in-lines quotes at some point, bear with me.... but to your questions:

So the question isnt whether or not she was willing to hurt the company, its whether or not it was legal to do so?​

Well... yeah. Her union called for a strike, and she went on strike. That was (is) part of the recognized process, when it gets to that point. In 1993 it apparently got to that point.

So she was willing to hurt the company as long as she was following the recognized process, now the process has been altered, not by legislators elected by the people, but by rulings by Judges to where the process that we have agreed to since 1926 has been altered through Judicial activism and we have been stripped of our rights, they have left us no legal recourse. The law has been altered to allow the company to excercise self help but the same option has been denied to unions. The RLA was based upon the concept of equal consideration of rights, the Unions could not use self help as long as the carriers didnt use it. Are you aware of the fact that ALL OTHER WORKERS (except airline workers)IN THIS COUNTRY CAN LEGALLY STRIKE IN BANKRUPTCY ONCE THE COMPANY ABROGATES THE LABOR AGREEMENTS? (Is your wife aware of that?) Are you aware that under the bankruptcy code sect 1167 that contracts under the RLA can not be abrogated in bankruptcy? Are you aware of the fact that some Judges ruled that "that" part of the RLA that drove Sect 1167 does not apply to airline workers (but it does to Rail workers) but the prohibition on striking does? (How could a just court declare that the same law applies differently?) Are you aware that a judge ruled that for Airline Workers, and airline workers alone contracts are not abrogated, they are annulled, as if they never existed? The basis for annulment of contracts is that the contracts were illegally enterred into, either the parties did not have the legal basis, there was fraud or coercion. The basis under C-11, for annullment of airline workers contracts is the company wants to earn $3 billion a year in profits and in order to do that they have to take it from the workers that help them generate those revenues. Our choices now are just accept it or fight back. Your wife apparently has chosen to accept it, the pilots have chosen to fight back. I support the pilots position.


The company could not get what they wanted through negotiations so with over $4 billion in the bank they filed for bankruptcy.

"Do I think that a good way to 'educate' the public is to purposely create situations that (for example) cause a customer to miss a life long friend's funeral, or a daughter's playoff soccer game, or a business conference that their company had paid thousands of dollars to exhibit at? Not so much..."

This is an economic contest, not a PR one. Labor doesnt get equal time in the corporate media, never did, nevr will. They will focus on the person who had to fly to a friends funeral, daughters soccer game or business meeting, comparatively minor one time inconviences, and not on the fact the workers are losing their pensions, their medical, their Homes and permanently seeing their standards of living decline, big changes that they have to live with every day. The fact is our labor provides these people the ability to afford such luxuries as travelling thousands of miles to attend funerals, soccer games and business meetings. They had options, the most likely reason they chose AA was price, its advisable to check the weather before you start any journey, book on an airline thats screwing its workers is inherantly risky.

Have you ever read the Railway Labor Act? Are you familiar with the history of it?

No and yes. I have not read the RLA, but I am aware as to why it was passed and why it was\is very much needed. I love history.

You obviously do not understand the History of the law enough to understand what is going on and why. Try reading "Understanding the Railway Labor Act by Frank N Wilner ISBN # 978-0911382-59-4 for a start.

As a History buff you are aware of how African Americans in the South went from having NO rights as slaves, to having full rights to the point that we had African American Senators, Congressmen and even Govornor, then with the introduction of new laws were stripped back to the point of being second class cistizens for the next 100 years. It took civil disobedience to get those opressive laws changed. Well labor has seen a similar process, no rights, the granting of rights and the slow step by step erosion of rights. When African American stopped riding the BUS is was an economic contest that eveolved into a PR contest, still the bottom line is economics was the primary reason for change.

Look, I feel like most employees are on the same page when it comes to their feelings towards management. The point of my initial post was that a very small number of employees are potentially jeopardizing the long term viability of the company through what, in my opinion, are senseless and selfish (and we will probably now see if illegal...) acts that *really* impact a *lot* of other people. And to what end? We have to destroy the village to save it?

Your opinion, and you dont work there. When your wife went on strike in 1993 she was doing a lot more damage than the pilots are accused of doing. oh yea its ok to burn down the village if you follow the process thats "legally recognized", and I guess you feel that working people still have as much control over the process as big corporations and the 1% do? Segregation was legally recognized as well, so was Aparthied, so was the extermination of Jews, so was Inquisition etc etc. History is full of morally corrpt legalities, every one of them had to be challenged, many through violence, thankfully, hopefully it will not get to that point as working people rediscover that they still have free will and can say "no: (as in No , I'm not going to sit on that defect until the aircraft terminates for the day), and vote.

You seem to forget that the company is making two accusations, one that pilots are calling in sick more than normal, but refuse to produce evidence backing up that claim, and two, that pilots are purposely reporting minor defects, thats part of their job. If a pilot notices a defect he reports it to Maintenance, maintenance evaluates the defect and determines if the aircraft can go or not, not the pilot. failure to do so is both a violation of Company rules and a violation of his duty as an FAA licensed Airline Pilot.Did you ever consider the possibility that Maintenance is no longer willing to take risks with their personal health and license to get an airplane out and the combination of both groups working exactly as the Company and the FAA demand has resulted in an operation that can not be sustained? Are you aware of all the steps that a mechanic must take before what appears to be a simple task as opening an engine cowl or changing a tire? My guess is no. Most of these steps involve things that keep the mechanic safe such as installing lock out devices that prevent things from being moved or powered up as the mechanic performs his primary task and often doing these things takes more time than the task itself. The proceedure for changing a tire on a live trip full of people is no different than it is for when an aircraft is in a hangar for major overhaul. Tire changes are routinely done on the line, mechanics who install the safety locks, and take all the other precautions outlined are considered to be troublemeakers, when they need a CS or a PV, to help out their dying parents or spouse management may deny it and tell them they have to be at work. We had one manager tell a mechanic whose brother was terminally ill that he had to write off his brother who was going to die anyway and focus on his job because after his brother was dead on gone he would need that job to support his family. That mechanic quit the company shortly afterwards. He was an above average mechanic but said that after being treated that way he could no longer work for AA.

This is the path that management has chosen, if the Village burns , no matter who strikes the match, they are the ones to blame. That goes with their job.

When corporations file for bankruptcy the court automatically makes the assumption that they would not do so unless liquidation was imminent andf this was the only option to prevent it. The assumption is is niave, and has already been dismissed as far as personal bankruptcies which now require that the debtor prove they need relief. Corporations still do not have to prove they need relief, workers have to prove they do not. Still the courts have shown that they believe in fairy tales, they accept such weak arguements siuch as "We need to make $3 billion a year in profits to attract further capital from the investment community".


To quote click on the quote box on the top pf the menu. When you drag the icon across the icons it tells you what they are.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Did you ever consider the possibility that Maintenance is no longer willing to take risks with their personal health and license to get an airplane out and the combination of both groups working exactly as the Company and the FAA demand has resulted in an operation that can not be sustained?

I have always respected your opinions on this board, but here I do not agree with your stance.

Bob, the above is the definition of an illegal job action. Your foray into the history of segregation, Aparthied and Jewish extermination aside; I do not understand why you, as a union leader, are on this public forum saying that:

1) Maintenance has been risking their personal health and license by getting an airplane out by not following the rules
2) That now, since the majority of your fellow workers have voted to accept concessions, you now feel that you have license to take punitive action against your employer?

As a former NWA Lead AMT, I completely understand your frustration. During the time that NWA was training the scabs who would eventually replace us, I (and my crews) was tempted to disrupt the operation. We (AMFA AMT's) collectively made a decision to act as the professionals we always claimed we were to show the company and the public that we were taking the high road. We struck the company legally and it did not work out for a number of reasons that I will not rehash here.

That was the right thing to do then, as it is for you to do now.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have always respected your opinions on this board, but here I do not agree with your stance.

Bob, the above is the definition of an illegal job action. Your foray into the history of segregation, Aparthied and Jewish extermination aside; I do not understand why you, as a union leader, are on this public forum saying that:

1) Maintenance has been risking their personal health and license by getting an airplane out by not following the rules
2) That now, since the majority of your fellow workers have voted to accept concessions, you now feel that you have license to take punitive action against your employer?

As a former NWA Lead AMT, I completely understand your frustration. During the time that NWA was training the scabs who would eventually replace us, I (and my crews) was tempted to disrupt the operation. We (AMFA AMT's) collectively made a decision to act as the professionals we always claimed we were to show the company and the public that we were taking the high road. We struck the company legally and it did not work out for a number of reasons that I will not rehash here.

That was the right thing to do then, as it is for you to do now.

Yes, but you were allowed to strike, you were provided equal accees to self help. Was NWA permitted to engage in self help while at the same time AMFA was denied the same option? NO. The pilots have seen their contract abrogated but have been denied the right to strike, a right that every other worker outside of Airline workers in the C-11 process enjoys. You say its an illegal act, well sure it is, because the legal avenues have been closed off to workers but left open to airlines. So I guess Rosa Parks should have just sat in the back of the bus as well?

 

[JAFA]

The pilots have seen their contract abrogated but have been denied the right to strike, a right that every other worker outside of Airline workers in the C-11 process enjoys.

Not entirely true Bob. You are corect that they cannot engage in self help as a reaction to the abrogation, that is what makes any job action illegal and wrong right now. The part you may have forgotten is that the prior situation of being, as you normally point out, several years past the amendable date means that they could return to the bargaining table and continue to pursue the proper release into a cooling off period. I think you'll agree with me that this wouldn't be forth coming until long after the chapter 11 proocess is complete, but it does not mean they do not have the right of self help. It only means they would have had to wait the legally (whether you agree with it or feel it fair or not) mandated process. As someone who was there with Glen in 2005 (hell maybe even worked with him for all I know) I have to agree with him. AMFA was also fighting on an uneven playing field nad facing compelte destruction, but chose to follow the rules and play fair. Maybe that is why despite what our unions were instructing us to do so many of us were side by side with them in 2005 yet today are not supporting the pilots or many of your "let the place collapse" mind sets.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

So I guess Rosa Parks should have just sat in the back of the bus as well?

No, I do not. I do not equate the AA bankruptcy and pilot dispute with the civil rights fight of Rosa Parks.

The fight to change the bankruptcy process and the RLA needs to be with the Legislative branch of the government. Beating on the customers and the bottom line of the corporation will not result in meaningful change.

Here I agree with Bob Crandall:

Acting in ways which will weaken American in today’s circumstances is harmful to everyone with an interest in the Company’s long term health, which certainly includes American’s pilots.

I liken this to situations like after the OJ verdict. People who felt they were wronged burned down their own neighborhoods. They showed them didn't they. Destroying American Airlines will not hurt the management you despise. It will harm the people who will have the hardest time finding other employment who have highly specialized skills that are not easily transferred to other industries (pilots). Granted, many pilot's may have advanced degrees and other transferrable skills. I highly doubt they will slide over into a job with equal pay and benefits. American Airlines knows this.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Glenn,
I agree w/ many of your points but one factor that you cannot overlook is that AA's "restructuring" has dragged on for 10 years and labor has been in the crosshairs of mgmt for half or more of their career. NW moved quickly to do what it had to do. You knew your options and were able fairly quickly to decide whether it was worth your while to stick around. You moved, obviously made good choices, rebuilt your life and are enjoying the fruits of your decisions. Many AA employees for years have said over the past 10 years, "it will get better in just a little longer" and have been met w/ one more round of cuts and difficulties w/ little to no hope things will change. From 2003 until the 6 year term when many of these contracts will be reopened is an incredibly long 15 years.

You simply cannot underestimate how demoralizing it is to work in a contentious labor environment year after year w/ no resolution in sight. Rationality says your point is valid - but labor at AA acted rationally for many years w/o any resolution or recovery.

And I can attest that all of this is wearing down AA employees physically and mentally. People do have limits and they will move to protect themselves in the absence of a resolution.

Just another perspective that needs to be considered in this whole issue.

 

[Super FLUF]

Granted, many pilot's may have advanced degrees and other transferrable skills. I highly doubt they will slide over into a job with equal pay and benefits. American Airlines knows this.

Your observation had more truth to it pre-LBFO/abrogation. That's the point. The company has turned this into a "nothing to lose" type of deal.

On top of that, we are already GROSSLY understaffed as it is. Why do you think there have already been this rash of pre-cancellations all the way through October? Maybe the company just has some fancy computer algorithm that figures out some sort of mayhem factor caused by those evil pilots and their (non-existent) "sick out".

Some of you are unbelievable. The company has been desperately short of pilots since last spring, and they steadfastly refuse to recall furloughed pilots. Reserves have been timing out we'll before the last week of the month, so they RUN OUT OF PILOTS.

What part of that don't you understand? Your hand wringing is aimed at the wrong target. Why don't you start directing some of your "their actions are harmful to the rest of us" rhetoric squarely where it belongs - the dolts at Centreport.

BTW, if you thought this month was fun, wait until the next month or two when the HUNDREDS of geezers that are locked in for retirement all pull the ejection handle at once.

"Got Pilots?"

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I agree with you WT. I do understand how demoralizing it is. That is why we replaced the IAMAW. They refused to force the company's hand.

I fault the unions (TWU) and ultimately the employees who have refused to replace them, with the current situation. There is one reason that the mechanics are in their current situation. Tulsa. Until AA mechanics come to understand that overhaul is no longer a certificated mechanic function, and will be outsourced, the sooner they can negotiate a living wage for the AMT's that cannot be outsourced.

Back on topic, I think the pilot's will eventually come around to an agreement. I think it will be sooner than later.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I agree w/ you but resolution of the pilot situation is no easier... both groups are looking at massive outsourcing and for the pilots the biggest concern is that AA really can't grow the mainline operation as much as they say they will, esp. after gaining access to hundreds of large RJs.

Thus, it is rational for the pilots to drag out resolution of a contract if it means they become some of the lowest paid in the US industry AND face the prospect of perhaps 1/4 to 1/3 of domestic pilots' jobs could be outsourced w/ not enough int'l growth to offset that domestic outsourcing.

Add those economic realities on to the toxic labor environment at AA and it is actually a surprise AA has operated as well as it has for as long as it has.

Doesn't make what is happening now any easier to watch from either side but AA labor's responses are alot more rational than many would like to believe.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I am optimistic that AA will come through this and find a suitable dance partner as the economy picks up. Sadly, labor rates will continue to lag airline growth (again). The pendulum never seems to swing back very far, instead the scale slides left (down) for wage vs inflation for all in the airline industry (outside of cargo).

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

And sadly a demoralised workforce will cause nothing but problems due to lack of ambition and lack of a decent contract after nine years of negotiating. Face it GQ the NWA situation doesnt even compare to this one. Lets see how jolly you become when forced to work under a contract that has been aborogated. You may have struck NWA but it didnt take 9 years to get your point across. Not to mention the line station members of the twu have been living under the tulsa contracts for over twenty years.

 

[AC Tynker]

Yes, but you were allowed to strike, you were provided equal accees to self help. Was NWA permitted to engage in self help while at the same time AMFA was denied the same option? NO. The pilots have seen their contract abrogated but have been denied the right to strike, a right that every other worker outside of Airline workers in the C-11 process enjoys. You say its an illegal act, well sure it is, because the legal avenues have been closed off to workers but left open to airlines. So I guess Rosa Parks should have just sat in the back of the bus as well?

Rosa Parks didn't have the attention of creditors and no one had the claim of losing $10 Billion over 10 years. The fact that some was self inflicted through bad business decisions seems to be immaterial. Rosa Parks, Jews ? Wow Bob, when you go to left field you hop the fence and cross the street.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

As I have read through this sites threads about what is going on with the Pilots it baffles me how many of US the AMT's have so much to say about what damage or influence the actions of the pilots is/isn't effecting AA. Do you all agree that we at AA the AMT's have our own problems. How we replace the TWU. What are we going to do over the next few yrs? What we have fought for in the past is going to be taken away, local agreements which made our daily operation run. How those letters effected what happened at the holidays, O/T and PV's. Less vaction for those with 25 yrs plus.

our Pension is frozen, soon we will be forced into a 401k with a match. What ever the company wants to do they are just going to do.

What are You going to do? Are you just going to let it happen? How much pride do you have in YOUR craft.

The Pilots may get taken to court by AA, they may get a better deal since they seem to have the power. But we all know that the FAA and the BK judge wil side with AA. Unless we the AMT's stick together do the job we are paid to do we will suffer the rath of AA.

Most of the AMT's of AA are company people. (just my belief) For all the yrs you have been here you have let the TWU and the company talk you into believing that we are a team, work together. "Well" were has that gotten YOU? I read all the bickering and back and forth bs here about which union we should have how the IBT has more money. How AMFA has little money to take on the company. The TWU and the AFL-CIO have let us all down. The RLA has needed changing for many yrs, Lets find a way to get that changed so that those who folow and remain in the airline industry will be able to fight the corporate greed.

Our contract is now going to be in the hands of the judge to approve what we signed.

Isn't it time for you to think about YOUR Class and Craft, Time for You to stand up for yourselves and show YOUR WORTH TO AA.

Do you get a thrill out of someone else fighting the battle for YOU?

Over the yrs here I have heard that the F/A have more fight than the TWU. Isn't that something you would like to say for once that you were an AA AMT who finally realized that AA and the TWU have taken and taken from us and enough is enough.

Lets get rid of the TWU, bring in another union. Change the culture here at AA that the AMT's are company people and show AA that we can be a UNION that we can stick together. Lets get rid of the I GOT MINE attitude.

Find some one at your station who has cards to bring an election to AA as which one you elect to sign that is your choice. Just remember that the IBT does not have the AMTs interest as a main priority. Its all about the dues. AMFA on the other hand will in my opinion move us in a better direction.

O/H bases at the airlines are some thing we all can see, is going away. All the carriers no matter which union is there have been forced to let the companies contract out work. Its going to happen here at AA as well. The TWU has devalued us so its time to shed them.

lets not look at the attitude of some of the organizers at your stations. Think about it all on your own.

Ask your self has the TWU and AA really given me what I feel my craft is worth over all the yrs I have been here? Have they made deals that have given certain stations advantages over others?

What happens though out this whole process and what happens by the end of the yr will effect you and all of your families. Some of us will not be here, we will be forced to move on again or even change careers.

Its time to fight for what YOU believe, Fight for your Class and craft.

 

[737823]

So she was willing to hurt the company as long as she was following the recognized process, now the process has been altered, not by legislators elected by the people, but by rulings by Judges to where the process that we have agreed to since 1926 has been altered through Judicial activism and we have been stripped of our rights, they have left us no legal recourse. The law has been altered to allow the company to excercise self help but the same option has been denied to unions. The RLA was based upon the concept of equal consideration of rights, the Unions could not use self help as long as the carriers didnt use it. Are you aware of the fact that ALL OTHER WORKERS (except airline workers)IN THIS COUNTRY CAN LEGALLY STRIKE IN BANKRUPTCY ONCE THE COMPANY ABROGATES THE LABOR AGREEMENTS?

Bob, the RLA does not exist to restrict workers' rights, it exists along with other checks and balances to ensure job action does not disproportionately harm the economy at large. Remember when you posted how despite union employment has fallen union members are in critical spots to in your words, "Shut the economy down cold"?.

Well stay tuned. Labor has failed many times in the past, Patco, the 2002-2005 Airline BK scam, the rape of the UAW, but now the very existance of collective bargaining is being threatened. Sure our leaders have let us down many times in the past but now they have something at stake as well, we may fight each other but we both will fight you because we know for sure where you stand. You may very well see this country's first ever "General Strike" in the not too distant future.

Sure you may say our numbers are low but look at where we are. The Seaports, Airports, Train Stations, Bus Depots, Subway Stations and truck stops. ALL UNIONIZED. Most require specialized skills that are not readily available. Even Deltas Pilots and Dispatchers are union. Despite our low numbers we can stop the economy cold.

In all these industries our rights have been compromised, whether its the RLA, the Taylor Law or any of the other laws we've seen over the years where our rights are restricted, in Wisconson we can see what the next step will be for the rest of us if we dont act.

Like it or not, your workgroup ratified the concessionary deal as did the flight attendants. You've been posting about a wildcat strike since November 29th, why would you guys want to strike now if you have a ratified agreement? All that will result from illegal job action is fines and a possible injunction. You are completely off base to compare restrictions on airline workers' right to strike to apartheid, racial segregation, and extermination of the Jews its outrageous. How successful were the strikes in countries more friendly (less hostile) towards organized labor? BA prevailed in getting concessions from their cabin crew (thanks to the help of BALPA), Lufthansa is seeking to cut FA costs and establish a new low cost subsidiary and has faced job action, and closer to home PM Stephen Harper forced Air Canada workers back when they faced a strike this past spring. I'm not sure why you think through illegal job action and the courts you will win the ability to strike upon abrogation.

How successful has recent job action in the United States? Sure some may credit the Chicago teacher strike as a victory but the fact is the city had the upper hand and got much of what they wanted in terms of extending the school day and assessing teacher performance. What about the extended strike at Caterpillar in Joliet, IL? The IAM bowed down to company demands. Caterpillar closed a plant in Ontario after job action and is relocating to right to work state Georgia. How successful was the IAM at Lockheed Martin? They were striking when the company wanted to eliminate pension for new hires and have the workers pay a greater share of health care costs, again the IAM eventually got down and gave the company what they wanted.

Josh