ALPA/USAPA Topic for week of 1/24 to 1/31

[luvn737s]

You and I have gone around on this before and it no longer matters because, in the end, I GET TO VOTE AND YOU DON'T!

If I am in the majority and the majority votes in USAPA then the next hurtle is an agreement with the company. If we negotiate a tentative agreement with the company and the tentative agreement goes out and the majority votes to ratify it then it becomes the new contract. AWA pilots will sue and we go to court.

Well see what the judge thinks. If the judge forces the Company and USAPA to negotiate a contract with the Nicolau award then guess what.....the judge is interfereing with labor peace. But no matter....AWA pilots will sue and we know that. SO? they we go "ununionized"

We vote and we find out. Something that you and your buddy 700UW will just have to EXPERIENCE! The word for your position is FAILURE.

LET'S VOTE! (and put these three out of their misery).

Why not determine these critical issues before voting in someone who may not legally be able to do what they promise. Why vote on pipe dreams. Is that so unreasonable?

Secondly, why are both sided allowed independent contract ratification now (under single carrier status) but not under USAPA? What magic does USAPA have that makes them so special as to strip the west of a right they previously had? USAPA is all about the vote, right? Or is that only when they hold enough power to negate the opposition.

 

[end_of_alpa]

USAPA, as the new prospective agent, is the side tasked with proving itself, and has been given every opportunity to do so. But it's supporters (and you would think that on a board with such widespread readership as this, there would be dramatically more) do not directly answer questions. They retreat into personal attacks, and comparisons to ALPA. They praise APA, but refer to TWA pilots gettign hosed (arguing that ALPA failed to protect them from whom?). They state that seniority is the holy grail, but can be negotiated away any time you want. They state that the TA has expired, but that it still protects the pilots from using the Nicolau list because there is no combined contract, but that they aren't bound by it, but any modifications to the decision are permanent and will be adopted into any further joint contract that USAPA crafts. The vote isn't on Nicolau, but without Nicolau there would be no USAPA.

The graveyard spiral of logic here is incredible.

Why not look at USAPA without any modification to Nicolau. Fully implementing Nicolau with a joint contract (because to avoid any DFR suits that's what USAPA will be forced to do) will you, the voting pilot, be satisfied with the compromises inherent with USAPA over ALPA? Will caving on Nicolau erode support for USAPA, or will the meager savings in dues (but what about assessments) and the bare-bones committee structure (wanna wait 3 weeks to talk to someone about repeated scheduling abuses?) and the chance to vote on so many issues, you might not be able to keep them all straight (something I'm sure a computer-based voting system could fix, but might cost money) be enough to satisfy you with your brand spankin' new union?

One question.

What do you...only you luvn737s....think would happen from the West side if the BRC go into the 10 day lockdown and come out with an agreement that is different than the Nicolau award? What if they decide to propose "reordering" the list and/or implimenting the list in, say, 10 years for example.

Do you, if you represent YOUR side of the West pilots, think YOU will pass a tentative agreement with a renegotiated list and/or implimentation schedule from the BRC?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Why not determine these critical issues before voting in someone who may not legally be able to do what they promise. Why vote on pipe dreams. Is that so unreasonable?

Secondly, why are both sided allowed independent contract ratification now (under single carrier status) but not under USAPA? What magic does USAPA have that makes them so special as to strip the west of a right they previously had? USAPA is all about the vote, right? Or is that only when they hold enough power to negate the opposition.

Because of ALPA MERGER POLICY that prevents the operation of both groups coming together until AFTER a joint contract is negotiated. The NMB has determined single carrier status because USAPA applied for it.

ALPA, because of merger policy, couldn't apply for "single carrier" status with the NMB until AFTER a joint contract was ratified. This is what ALPA just asked the NMB to do and they were SHOT DOWN! Did you read the NMB ruling?

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/library/NMB-S...er-Decision.pdf

 

[700UW]

If the MEC violated the constitution, why did you still lose your pension?

Why did the lawsuit get thrown out of court?

Why did National not put the East in trusteeship?

And if it was illegal why was not anyone charged under RICO or any other applicable laws?

I for one smell the BS a mile away!

And for the third time, how many LOAs are in your CBA, that have been implemented and you have not voted for?

Better go look up binding arbitration, you know what both sides agreed too?

You cant just set it aside if you dont like the outcome, your MEC agreed to it and now you have to live with it?

 

[luvn737s]

One question.

What do you...only you luvn737s....think would happen from the West side if the BRC go into the 10 day lockdown and come out with an agreement that is different than the Nicolau award? What if they decide to propose "reordering" the list and/or implimenting the list in, say, 10 years for example.

Do you, if you represent YOUR side of the West pilots, think YOU will pass a tentative agreement with a renegotiated list and/or implimentation schedule from the BRC?

I'm not a spokesman for the west, but I think that ALPA needs to preserve the arbitration process and will not touch Nicolau, or they would have done so already. You want my guess as to what comes out of LAS (I'm a little cynical and think what happens in Vegas should STAY in Vegas)? I think that the current out-of-seniority upgrades for the last 20 months on the east will constitute the "fence" and that combined with perhaps an extension of the protections on the golden 517 for 5 more years will be all the west would offer. Anything more unduly penalizes the west pilots. I think the west pilots blame the east (USAPA/AAA ALPA) for squandering the opportunity to make real contract improvements by forcing us to watch more Kabuki theatre while the economy winds down.

My question is, if this is a negotiation, what will the east offer up? If the word is 'Nothing" than we really aren't talking about negotiations here are we?

 

[end_of_alpa]

If the MEC violated the constitution, why did you still lose your pension?

Why did the lawsuit get thrown out of court?

Why did National not put the East in trusteeship?

And if it was illegal why was not anyone charged under RICO or any other applicable laws?

I for one smell the BS a mile away!

And for the third time, how many LOAs are in your CBA, that have been implemented and you have not voted for?

Better go look up binding arbitration, you know what both sides agreed too?

You cant just set it aside if you dont like the outcome, your MEC agreed to it and now you have to live with it?

The pension argument is not only not yours...you do NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

The pension was lost because, in essence, the pilots at that time were not aware until much later of what happened because bankrupcy court accepted the MEC ruling. the judge doesn't know ALPA law unless he is made aware of it. ALPA national didn't care at the time. As far as independent lawsuits these are either still pending or are gone.

Why? Because under FEDERAL law everyone is just now finding out that defined benefit programs belong to the Company and in bankruptcy the judge does NOT allow employees/unions a say in the manner as to how those plans are administered in bankruptcy. There was a big Supreme Court ruling about this not too long ago. This is the same thing for social security. Congress can change the law and even take all the money in the so called Social security "trust fund" and you nor I could do anything about it.

NO PILOT HERE IS LISTENING TO YOU. YOU WILL NOT CONVINCE US WITH "FEEL GOOD" ARGUMENTS!

You have your position...and YOU don't get a vote. And I have mine...and I GET TO VOTE!

You BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. You did not READ my post. I ASKED THE EXPERTS. HERE IS THE CASE LAW.

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/Seham_seniori...tion_issues.htm
http://1.usairlinepilots.org/misc_docs/ALP...O'Neill.doc
http://1.usairlinepilots.org/misc_docs/Rakestraw-case.doc
http://1.usairlinepilots.org/library/AirWiscvSanderson.pdf

Of course, don't let the FACTS get in your way.

 

[700UW]

Seham is a shill, they represented airlines against unions, lost the major status quo case and used AMFA to make him rich.

Your cases are not the same you have posted.

I was in court when the IAM DBP was terminated, they judge did listen to both sides.

Once again for the fourth time, how many LOAs in your CBA, that you have not voted on?

And if your not listening, why are you replying?

And you said what the MEC did was illegal, why are no federal charges pending in federal court?

You make me laugh, you just keep grasping at straws and making things up.

And if it was illegal, they could not have done it, duh!

 

[end_of_alpa]

I think that the current out-of-seniority upgrades for the last 20 months on the east will constitute the "fence" and that combined with perhaps an extension of the protections on the golden 517 for 5 more years will be all the west would offer.

Question?

If the BRC did even this, what you say here, is that an "amendment" to the Nicolau award?

Would you consider the extension of protections on the golden 517 for 5 more years an amendment to the Nicolau Award?

 

[prechilill]

After reading this board for a while, especially of late, it is apparent we are seeing mostly the fringe thinkers of the east's pipe dream on this board. Logic is forgotten, selected arbitration decisions no longer matter and our legal system can be usurped simply by a majority vote. These guys are in the minority and the vote will tell us so. The question for USAPA is how many sheeple they can count on being irrational.

 

[luvn737s]

Question?

If the BRC did even this, what you say here, is that an "amendment" to the Nicolau award?

Would you consider the extension of protections on the golden 517 for 5 more years an amendment to the Nicolau Award?

Technically yes, maybe (how's that?). Functionally, for the 517, it extends the Nic benefit as it existed before age 60 was changed. Granting amnesty to the out-of-seniority upgrades goes back to the no-bump-and-flush provision of the TA, so while some pilots enjoy benefits not afforded others, the list itself has not been re-ordered.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Seham is a shill, they represented airlines against unions, lost the major status quo case and used AMFA to make him rich.

Your cases are not the same you have posted.

I was in court when the IAM DBP was terminated, they judge did listen to both sides.

Once again for the fourth time, how many LOAs in your CBA, that you have not voted on?

And if your not listening, why are you replying?

And you said what the MEC did was illegal, why are no federal charges pending in federal court?

You make me laugh, you just keep grasping at straws and making things up.

And if it was illegal, they could not have done it, duh!

So you don't like Seham. We do! Wait till you find out who else likes Seham! I know, you don't care. Pilots are scabs and why am I replying to you?

My cases ARE the same as I've been posting. I've probably posted too many actually.

And if you're not LISTENING, then why are YOU replying? Everything you JUST said has no COHERANT THOUGH PATTERN!

Good luck in your new labor position.

 

[700UW]

I all ready hold a new position within my current union, see experiences counts.

And you did not post any cases that are the exact case of what is going on at US.

And Seham is just out to get rich from your pockets, just wait and see.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Technically yes, maybe (how's that?). Functionally, for the 517, it extends the Nic benefit as it existed before age 60 was changed. Granting amnesty to the out-of-seniority upgrades goes back to the no-bump-and-flush provision of the TA, so while some pilots enjoy benefits not afforded others, the list itself has not been re-ordered.

I say again:

Would you consider the extension of protections on the golden 517 for 5 more years an amendment to the Nicolau Award? (yes or no)?

 

[nostradamus]

I think the west pilots blame the east (USAPA/AAA ALPA) for squandering the opportunity to make real contract improvements by forcing us to watch more Kabuki theatre while the economy winds down.

My question is, if this is a negotiation, what will the east offer up? If the word is 'Nothing" than we really aren't talking about negotiations here are we?

The West was making the lowest pilot wages for the last 20 years plus.
Click here for pilot wage graph for the previous 10 years.

Now they feel it is a crime when someone is holding back "alleged wage increases", for barely 2 years.

What it is really all about is your leader Doug is a finance man, not an airline leader. The reason you have the lowest employee and customer satisfaction is because he is out there working hard to line up a transaction for the airline while using duct tape type style fixes until he can work out a deal.

I wonder if your pilots that are near the bottom realize they are mere fodder in his quest for a deal, so he can collect and get out.

Notice I say transaction not merger.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I all ready hold a new position within my current union, see experiences counts.

I feel sorry for those you represent.

And you did not post any cases that are the exact case of what is going on at US.

Several, actually. I can't help it if you don't read them.

And Seham is just out to get rich from your pockets, just wait and see.

ALPA's NOT? I can make INTELLIGENT choices without your "experience counts" mantra. I can say the same with MY union activities as well. I just don't BRAG about it.