Airline Bamkruptcy Article Wsj

[Oneflyer]

I am not at that stage yet, but I will aver that the employees who are still doing a good job are doing so only because they are internally motivated. Far too many are what I would call "dead men walking", just showing up and going through the motions

Uh, this is called life. Most people who work hard are internally motivated, not motivated by love for there company. Surprisingly money has been shown to be a very poor motivator, most people that suceed do it because they are internally motivated, even though monetary achievement may be the external result. It also shows that in general the people that are most disgruntled now, were disgruntled 3 years ago, 10 years ago, and 20 years ago. They always think their getting screwed no matter what.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Uh, this is called life. Most people who work hard are internally motivated, not motivated by love for there company. Surprisingly money has been shown to be a very poor motivator, most people that suceed do it because they are internally motivated, even though monetary achievement may be the external result. It also shows that in general the people that are most disgruntled now, were disgruntled 3 years ago, 10 years ago, and 20 years ago. They always think their getting screwed no matter what.

[post="303319"][/post]​

Thank you for sharing your bleak view on life. The world you describe is not the airline I hired on to.

And, since you seem surprised that money is not a motivator, how would you explain commissions, piece work, the self-employed, executive bonuses, performance incentives, spiff, etc. A goodly percentage of the country is compensated according to their efforts and initiative. Money is surely a motivator there. It is also an indicator, as it is on the flight line and hangar floor.

 

[Oneflyer]

how would you explain commissions, piece work, the self-employed, executive bonuses, performance incentives, spiff, etc. A goodly percentage of the country is compensated according to their efforts and initiative.

Its a bit difficult to explain, but simply put, top performers are paid well because they are the top performers, they are not top performers because they are paid well.

I would also submit to you that most people are disgruntled not so much because of the money they lost, but because of the lack of power and control they have over their lives. The people that are motivated primarily by money and have the skills necessary, have left AA. If you're left, either you enjoy your job, your primary motivation isn't money, or you don't have the skills necessary to get a better paying job.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Its a bit difficult to explain, but simply put, top performers are paid well because they are the top performers, they are not top performers because they are paid well.

I

[post="303342"][/post]​

Never worked in sales, have you?

Or farmed.

I would even go so far as to say that a number of those at the top (notice I did not say "top performers") collecting incentives and bonuses are not performing well at all.

  I would also submit to you that most people are disgruntled not so much because of the money they lost, but because of the lack of power and control they have over their lives.

I would say that a line aircraft mech has more autonomy than most workers will ever have. And the longer one works here, the more autonomy he has, as he gets better at doing his job and "playing the game". And, being more capable, he is granted more autonomy by his supe. So, no, the "lack of power" you describe does not apply.

The people that are motivated primarily by money and have the skills necessary, have left AA. If you're left, either you enjoy your job, your primary motivation isn't money, or you don't have the skills necessary to get a better paying job.

What about the golden handcuffs?

.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oneflyer,Sep 21 2005, 03:22 AM]
Its a bit difficult to explain,


It is difficult because you are full of s#!+. Their justification for the monetary bonuses is that they were necissary in order to keep people. If they were "internally motivated" then they would have embraced the challenge without the bonuses.

but simply put, top performers are paid well because they are the top performers, they are not top performers because they are paid well.

And they perform well to get that money. If they perform well and are not paid well then its unrealistic to expect that they will continue to perform as well, even if they stay.

I would also submit to you that most people are disgruntled not so much because of the money they lost, but because of the lack of power and control they have over their lives.

No, its the money.

Money provides the power and control, along with other things like bread on the table. You see for us, unlike those who preach that "money is not a motivator" hypocritical BS its a matter of essentials, not power or control. For those who have the essentials covered they may use the money for power and control so they look at it differently. For instance if I won $10 million I would not go to work, I would retire, however give $10 million to a CEO who has $100 million and it would not change anything. So for that CEO the $10 million in money would not be a motivator to get him to quit. $10 million would have very little effect on the CEO who already has $100million but it would have a huge impact on my life.

The lower to go you will find that money is pretty much the sole motivator for the majority of people to go to work everyday. It may not be the sole motivator for those who want more power and control, who already have more than enough money, but that does not apply to 90% of the population. Take $20,000 away from a CEO and it means nothing, take $20,000 away from someone who only earns $40,000 and you have just put them into poverty.

My father was a chauffeur for a large chemical company. One day he went to bring a retired executive back to corporate HDQ for a visit. On the ride home he admitted that he did not miss the money, why? Because as he said "I already have more than I'll ever spend", he said "I miss the power". So for those who have more than enough money, perhaps that statement is true but very few people fit into that cataegory. With four kids and a wife to support I can assure you that the only reason my father was there was "for the money'.



The people that are motivated primarily by money and have the skills necessary, have left AA. If you're left, either you enjoy your job, your primary motivation isn't money, or you don't have the skills necessary to get a better paying job.

Not quite. Funny how you try to spin some points as black and white, then others as "a little difficult to explain". The fact is that when your finances are at or below those needed to obtain the essentials mobility is even more restricted. For instance a CEO can probably afford to take a year off for a job search but a common worker cant. The fact is what you said before is true, money provides power and control, the power to have the mobility to just jump ship at will is one of them. While a lot of the restriction is more psycological than real it none the less provides a significant barrier for many to leave.

Those that have already left are those that had the means or the balls to do so.

This whole line about "Money not being a motivator" is simply a psycological sales trick trick dreamed up by some slick businessmen in order sucker working people into accepting less than they should. The fact is they spread this BS out to you while saying the exact opposite about themselves and the companies they run. Have you ever heard of a corporation that says "We are no longer going to concern ourselves with profits, as long as we break even and do good for society we will be content"? Have you ever seen a CEO say, I'll work for nothing since I love what I do and I have more than enough money? You may, but not in the business world, because in the business world EVERYTHING is about MONEY!!!

Money is the prime motivator for workers. It is only after the monetary needs of a person have been met that other motivations can emerge.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Money is the prime motivator for workers. It is only after the monetary needs of a person have been met that other motivations can emerge.[/color]

[post="303443"][/post]​

I don't know if Maslow and Herzberg are still taught, but they still apply. Herzberg said that pay is a hygiene (or maintenance) factor, and can only be a motivating factor if it is deficient. I would believe that would apply here to AA mechs. It is particularly applicable here because, not only is it deficient, but is deficient because it was taken away. Unsatisfactory maintenance factors are very strong de-motivators.

My fellow students were of two minds on this. Those that we would today call yuppies or yuppie wannabees didn't believe pay could be a motivator. Those who had actually done non-desk work, as in a summer job or who were (non-desk)working while attending college agreed. Since then, I have observed a similar dichotomy on this issue in other discussions, as well.

Until the hygiene deficiencies are addressed, the motivation factors will be ineffective.

.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I am not at that stage yet, but I will aver that the employees who are still doing a good job are doing so only because they are internally motivated. Far too many are what I would call "dead men walking", just showing up and going through the motions, knowing full well that their days are numbered. Or just that things are going to get even worse. Very few of us look forward to a second career in retirement as a greeter at WalMart.

Pope was incorrect. Hope does NOT spring eternal.

Anyone ever study Maslow?

.

[post="303223"][/post]​

So you need to give back a little more to the company then you will be at that stage.
Not to worry more concessions on the way. how is AA to compete with all the labor agreements that are being thrown out in BK
TWU to the rescue :blink:

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Uh, this is called life. Most people who work hard are internally motivated, not motivated by love for there company. Surprisingly money has been shown to be a very poor motivator, most people that suceed do it because they are internally motivated, even though monetary achievement may be the external result. It also shows that in general the people that are most disgruntled now, were disgruntled 3 years ago, 10 years ago, and 20 years ago. They always think their getting screwed no matter what.

[post="303319"][/post]​

I actually find your statement quite funny because everyone that I know outside of the airline industry saw our concession package and said "You are getting screwed ! "

You my friend are a legend in your own mind


Money talks BS walks.
Money is my motivation and as long as they write the check I will show up to collect it

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Article on page B4 of today's WSJ:

"......................................................American and Continental may need to ask their employees for more cuts to stay competitive, analysts say. Longer term, if oil prices remain high, some analysts believe both carriers may be forced to revisit the idea of seeking their own bankruptcy-court protection. Both have heavy debt burdens and underfunded pension plans, two liabilities that can be reduced or voided entirely in Chapter 11."

 

[Bob Owens]

Article on page B4 of today's WSJ:

"......................................................American and Continental may need to ask their employees for more cuts to stay competitive, analysts say. Longer term, if oil prices remain high, some analysts believe both carriers may be forced to revisit the idea of seeking their own bankruptcy-court protection. Both have heavy debt burdens and underfunded pension plans, two liabilities that can be reduced or voided entirely in Chapter 11."

[post="303887"][/post]​

Here comes that word again-"competative".

Before it was we need the cuts to prevent BK, now they will claim that they need to have the lowest labor costs around. What they leave out is that even though the carriers that went through BK may have lowered their labor costs they are paying through the nose for capitol.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Pope was incorrect. Hope does NOT spring eternal.

Anyone ever study Maslow?

.

[post="303223"][/post]​

Do you remember how fascinating ol' Abe and his 'hierarchy of needs' sounded when you first learned of this guy?

Look, I'm not anti-union. I was raised in a union family (my dad was a firefighter before firefighting was 'cool') but I also know that many firefighters (and other unionists) never flew in an airplane because the fares were prohibitive.

And when there was a blazing building you never heard the firefighters blame "non-union builders" or inept management as a cause of the fire.

The firefighters just took care of their business.

Today it is possible to belong to a union, work for an airline AND make a very good wage. Your union leaders should be guiding you rather than simply resisting change.

Don't expect your customers to pay inflated airfares just because you are a self-proclaimed noble member of a labor organization.

Prior to de-regulation there were millions of families who could not afford to fly.

Finally, after twenty five years, airline wages are coming into line with the fares.

And Maslow would tell you that your need for self-preservation is paramount.

 

[Hopeful]

Do you remember how fascinating ol' Abe and his 'hierarchy of needs' sounded when you first learned of this guy?

Look, I'm not anti-union.  I was raised in a union family (my dad was a firefighter before firefighting was 'cool') but I also know that many firefighters (and other unionists)  never flew in an airplane because the fares were prohibitive. 

And when there was a blazing building you never heard the firefighters blame "non-union builders" or inept management as a cause of the fire.         

The firefighters just took care of their business. 

Today it is possible to belong to a union, work for an airline AND make a very good wage.  Your union leaders should be guiding you rather than simply resisting change.

Don't expect your customers to pay inflated airfares just because you are a self-proclaimed noble member of a labor organization.

Prior to de-regulation there were millions of families who could not afford to fly.

Finally, after twenty five years, airline wages are coming into line with the fares.

And Maslow would tell you that your need for self-preservation is paramount.

[post="303945"][/post]​

INFLATED AIRFARES?????????????????????????????

THESE ARE THE AIRFARES OF 70'S.


WHY HAVENT' GREEDY AIRLINE EXECUTIVE WAGES COME INTO LINE WITH FARES?


YOU SEEM TO ONLY ATTACK UNIONS AND UNION MEMBERS AND BLAME THEM, BUT YOU CONVENIENTLY OMIT GREEDY AIRLINE MANAGEMENT!

 

[Bizman]

I'm glad you like cheap fares because you will soon get a tax bill from Uncle Sam for either direct or indirect subsidies of the airlines.Have a nice day!

[post="302974"][/post]​

Maybe so, But we'll still have the cheap fares and you'll be subsidizing some of the cost with YOUR tax bill also Thanks for the cheap seats, Have a nice day!

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

INFLATED AIRFARES?????????????????????????????

THESE ARE THE AIRFARES OF 70'S.
WHY HAVENT' GREEDY AIRLINE EXECUTIVE WAGES COME INTO LINE WITH FARES?
YOU SEEM TO ONLY ATTACK UNIONS AND UNION MEMBERS AND BLAME THEM, BUT YOU CONVENIENTLY OMIT GREEDY AIRLINE MANAGEMENT!

[post="303964"][/post]​

Incorrect. I never agreed with outlandish mgmt salaries, however they are just doing the same as you, taking what the market offers them for as long as the money is available and you both are certainly entitled to get it while it lasts.

But it ain't lasting much longer. Unless of course you adapt. Unlike the dinosaurs.

(and your silly comment about 'airfares of 70s' is nonsense --- or are you still paying 70 cents for gas and $3thou for a new car??)

 

[Hopeful]

Incorrect. I never agreed with outlandish mgmt salaries, however they are just doing the same as you, taking what the market offers them for as long as the money is available and you both are certainly entitled to get it while it lasts.

But it ain't lasting much longer. Unless of course you adapt. Unlike the dinosaurs.

(and your silly comment about 'airfares of 70s' is nonsense --- or are you still paying 70 cents for gas and $3thou for a new car??)

[post="304004"][/post]​

AIRFARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1