AFA Files Suit In Federal Court

[North by Northwest]

I don't think it's just the 60% they are trying to influence. I really don't mean this in a cynical way but let's face it..I'm not so sure that the 40% of DL f/a's who voted in favor of representation in May wouldn't be influenced by a higher relative seniority placement (vs date-of-hire...Remember our board friend Cooper who chose to "wait" for something "better" than DOH?) Seniority is the single most powerful "aphrodisiac", if you will, to a f/a.

You have a valid point Luke-

But what they should do is READ the ruling for US AIR, there is almost a -0 chance of Delta FAs coming out ahead of NW crew and a higher chance that they will end up with LESS than DOH, the cards are stacked in favor of NW FAs based on past formulas used. The Pilots ruling coming down the pike, will make clear the direction of things...THAT is what Delta is afraid of. They want a FA seniority agreement BEFORE the pilots agreement comes out.

This is all a very serious game of chess, with very high stakes.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

They want a FA seniority agreement BEFORE the pilots agreement comes out.

Ain't gonna happen...the arbitrator rules on pilot seniority Dec. 8, if memory serves me correctly.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Question.
Wouldn't the answer be to have the AFA immediatley call for an election?

Can't they call for one immediatley without cards because of the
whole 30% thing?

Nope, not until the NMB declares a Single Carrier Designation.

 

[tech2101]

The IFS Seniority Integration Committee is proud to have been elected by our peers to represent their interests in the seniority integration of the Delta and Northwest flight attendant seniority lists through the process established under a federal law that was passed last December (Public Law 110-161).

The law provides for the "fair and equitable" integration of our competitive seniority rights, consistent with Section 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions (LLPs). There are three parties who are entitled to participate in the process: this IFS Seniority Integration Committee, which represents the Delta flight attendants, the representatives for the pre-merger Northwest flight attendants, and representatives of Delta's management. In the event that all of the parties are not able to reach agreement on the integration of the seniority lists, they will submit the issues that are in dispute to a neutral arbitrator for resolution.

If it goes to arbitration then AFA's argument (much like this frivolous lawsuit) is toast.

Can you say "company union"?

 

[BABABOOY]

Nope, not until the NMB declares a Single Carrier Designation.

So that's the AFA's decision isn't it? Technically they can call for one tomorrow right?
If the union waits until 2010(SOC)to call for an election then
the whole mess of "keeping with our own equipment" can possibly go on
well into 2011?.... just like US/HP.....

 

[North by Northwest]

BBBoy...AFA can NOT call an election until there is a SOC. The SOC must be approved by the FAA. I think you will see an election on the table after Jan. 20, 2008, set for perhaps March or April (I believe there will be NEW NMB members by then...

--------------------------

On another note-Luke/BBoy, and other Old Delta folks

This post was on another site, think it was Airliners...how much of this is correct :

"Hello all,
I would like to address a few issues mentioned in all of these emails comparing Northwest pay/benefits to Delta pay/benefits:

1) Our Delta A-Day holders did not start to receive a 14:15 guarantee for a 3-day A-Day block until
January 1, 2008. Prior to that they received approximately $76.00/per unused A-Day, which was
later increased to approximately $85.00/per unused A-Day.

2) The “newâ€￾ Delta Certified Sick Leave bank of 1200 hours that has been mentioned is very misleading.
What Delta is allowing us to do is put our unused PPT (Personal Paid Time) hours into our certified sick
leave bank UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 1200 hours. We only get 42:00 of PPT days per year (7 days at 6:00
per day or trips missed up to 42:00/year). It would take over 28 YEARS to accumulate 1200 hours. For
those who have already depleted their certified sick leave bank through a catastrophic illness, such as
cancer, they will suffer a devastating loss of income if they become ill again.

3) We have had a Social Security offset for our pension for decades. This not something new but it angers
all of us. Without the ability to negotiate legally, this will NEVER change.

The single most important fact of life here at Delta is that anything - and everything - can be changed without notice. We have no legal say in the matter. Since our first union election way back in 2002, we have had pay system changed; our pay cut - twice - with top-scale flight attendants receiving more of a cut than the rest; our pay cuts were across-the-board cuts while pay raises were only on selected items; we lost our night pay, our longevity pay, our authorized leave pay, our international pay for years, our delay pay; we lost our 5th, 6th and 7th week of vacation (a loss of approximately $300.00 per year per vacation); most of our duty rigs were eliminated and while some have been returned, those that have been returned never seem to kick in with the kind of trips we have nowadays (with the exception of the returned ‘Minutes Under by Segmentâ€￾ duty rig); we have been hampered with a preferential bidding system that negates seniority; our trip quality has deteriorated; our reserve system was eliminated and replaced by an A-Day system that causes more people to have reserve days than ever before; our traditional sick leave system was replaced with a noncertified/certified sick bank system with 42:00 of PPT per year to be used for illness, injury, or personal time; our certified sick leave bank can only be “restockedâ€￾ by putting unused PPT time into it at the rate of 42:00 hours per year; we now pay medical insurance premiums that once cost us nothing plus higher deductibles and co-pays; our retirees have NO medical coverage after age 65 except Medicare......I can go on and on but I think you get the point - everything at Delta can change and a lot of it already has changed.

A better way of addressing this issue is not to compare apples to oranges but to stress the vulnerability Delta flight attendants have without a contract and the value the Northwest contract contains. "

Thanks

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, I don't think this would be the case as AFA filed for the election in mid February earlier this year. The merger wasn't even announced until April 14th and just now approved by DOJ on Oct. 29th.

Thaks for the clarification of the dates. For some reason I thought the merger announcement came first.

As for the SBU determination, I don't think a single ops certificate is required to obtain a favorable ruling from the NMB on that - the corporate merger has already occurred. Certainly the SBU ruling would be a mere formality after a single ops cert was obtained, though.

Jim

 

[North by Northwest]

Thaks for the clarification of the dates. For some reason I thought the merger announcement came first.

As for the SBU determination, I don't think a single ops certificate is required to obtain a favorable ruling from the NMB on that - the corporate merger has already occurred. Certainly the SBU ruling would be a mere formality after a single ops cert was obtained, though.

Jim

jim-

A SOC is indeed required (from AFA's perspective), prior to that you have technically two companies, one now being held as a subsidiary, AFA is not allowed to operate as a single bargaining agent for separate employees of the same craft for the same company...the merger is NOT complete until there is a SOC and the company has full authority to operate as one. It would costs Delta hundreds of millions of dollars to maintain the CBA of NWAAFA as it relates to NW a/c (SCOPE) separately. Do remember...AFA and NW FA are not the only Union group that Delta must solve.

IF...Delta was in THIS BIG OF A HURRY, they should have spent as much time on this PRIOR to the merger as they did with the Pilots. They didn't, simply because they have "different" plans for NW "other" unions. (we'll see about that...as the clock continues to tick)

Pilots didn't fall for that pathetic "Direct relathionship {Master/Slave}" Bull...and apparently NOR does Mr. Anderson, Campbell, Smith, Bastain, or any other the others. No one seems to want to answer why it is GOOD for them, but NOT for other employees.

That would be like ALPA representing TWO pilot groups at Delta.

 

[BABABOOY]

BBBoy...AFA can NOT call an election until there is a SOC. The SOC must be approved by the FAA. I think you will see an election on the table after Jan. 20, 2008, set for perhaps March or April (I believe there will be NEW NMB members by then...

SOC is not supposed to happen until early 2010. Therefore it will most likely drag on until 2011

 

[North by Northwest]

SOC is not supposed to happen until early 2010. Therefore it will most likely drag on until 2011

This is a decision that DELTA made, it is one they must bare the responsibility for. They made it CLEAR from the beginning that they were NOT interested in working with AFA.
Now they are...cause they see their time running out.
Now they are because they thought they could count on having the rules changed this summer.
Now they are because they didn't think Obama was going to win...and a whole HOST of other reasons.

They played a hand, and lost, simple as that.

The balls in AFA's/ and the other Union's court.

 

[BoeingBoy]

jim-

A SOC is indeed required [to obtain a SBU ruling - Jim

Here's what the NMB says:

The following are some indicia of a single transportation system:

(1) published combined schedules or combined routes;

(2) standardized uniforms;

(3) common marketing, markings or insignia;

(4) integrated essential operations such as scheduling or dispatching;

(5) centralized labor and personnel operations;

(6) combined or common management, corporate officers, and board of directors;

(7) combined workforce; and,

(8) common or overlapping ownership.

Pay particular attention to #6 & #8. As I said, obtaining a SBU ruling gets easier as the steps to get a single ops cert are accomplished and is a mere formality afterwards, but it's not impossible to get such a ruling after the corporate merger is complete but before a single ops cert is issued.

Jim

 

[North by Northwest]

Here's what the NMB says:

The following are some indicia of a single transportation system:

(1) published combined schedules or combined routes;

(2) standardized uniforms;

(3) common marketing, markings or insignia;

(4) integrated essential operations such as scheduling or dispatching;

(5) centralized labor and personnel operations;

(6) combined or common management, corporate officers, and board of directors;

(7) combined workforce; and,

(8) common or overlapping ownership.

Pay particular attention to #6 & #8. As I said, obtaining a SBU ruling gets easier as the steps to get a single ops cert are accomplished and is a mere formality afterwards, but it's not impossible to get such a ruling after the corporate merger is complete but before a single ops cert is issued.

Jim

Thanks for posting that Jim...I was searching google for it. I agree with you that it is not impossible, especially IF you had the assistance of your Unions in seeking a determination. That is most likely not going to happen. Therefore, Delta is looking at 12 -15 months out (based on their own analysis).

I call your attention to the header of the section:

"The following are some indicia)...that leaves a mighty wide field for a Union or company to interpret with their bylaws. Now, I am sure, with the right negotiating on Delta's behalf, AFA might bend it's rule to "help out the newly Unionized" airline.

Moreover, sections
1
2
3
4
5
7 are FAR from being complete.

Advantage...DeltaAFA/ other NW Delta Unions. (throw in the NEW incoming NMB)...checkmate.

I think you can call this a good one for the New Delta employees and their desire for equal footing with New Delta management, and pilots.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

SOC is not supposed to happen until early 2010. Therefore it will most likely drag on until 2011

I think you're getting the Single Operating CERTIFICATE (by the FAA) and the Single Carrier DETERMINATION (by the NMB) confused. Only the Single Carrier DETERMINATION--generally believed to be less stringent-- has to be fulfilled in order for the NMB to clear the way for another election. (I think points 1-7 as pointed out by Jim and NxNW will mostly be fulfilled by this coming Spring.) The pilots have already petitioned the NMB to declare a Single Carrier DETERMINATION and Delta has pushed that as well.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

BBBoy...AFA can NOT call an election until there is a SOC. The SOC must be approved by the FAA. I think you will see an election on the table after Jan. 20, 2008, set for perhaps March or April (I believe there will be NEW NMB members by then...

--------------------------

On another note-Luke/BBoy, and other Old Delta folks

This post was on another site, think it was Airliners...how much of this is correct :

"Hello all,
I would like to address a few issues mentioned in all of these emails comparing Northwest pay/benefits to Delta pay/benefits:

1) Our Delta A-Day holders did not start to receive a 14:15 guarantee for a 3-day A-Day block until
January 1, 2008. Prior to that they received approximately $76.00/per unused A-Day, which was
later increased to approximately $85.00/per unused A-Day.

2) The “newâ€￾ Delta Certified Sick Leave bank of 1200 hours that has been mentioned is very misleading.
What Delta is allowing us to do is put our unused PPT (Personal Paid Time) hours into our certified sick
leave bank UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 1200 hours. We only get 42:00 of PPT days per year (7 days at 6:00
per day or trips missed up to 42:00/year). It would take over 28 YEARS to accumulate 1200 hours. For
those who have already depleted their certified sick leave bank through a catastrophic illness, such as
cancer, they will suffer a devastating loss of income if they become ill again.

3) We have had a Social Security offset for our pension for decades. This not something new but it angers
all of us. Without the ability to negotiate legally, this will NEVER change.

The single most important fact of life here at Delta is that anything - and everything - can be changed without notice. We have no legal say in the matter. Since our first union election way back in 2002, we have had pay system changed; our pay cut - twice - with top-scale flight attendants receiving more of a cut than the rest; our pay cuts were across-the-board cuts while pay raises were only on selected items; we lost our night pay, our longevity pay, our authorized leave pay, our international pay for years, our delay pay; we lost our 5th, 6th and 7th week of vacation (a loss of approximately $300.00 per year per vacation); most of our duty rigs were eliminated and while some have been returned, those that have been returned never seem to kick in with the kind of trips we have nowadays (with the exception of the returned ‘Minutes Under by Segmentâ€￾ duty rig); we have been hampered with a preferential bidding system that negates seniority; our trip quality has deteriorated; our reserve system was eliminated and replaced by an A-Day system that causes more people to have reserve days than ever before; our traditional sick leave system was replaced with a noncertified/certified sick bank system with 42:00 of PPT per year to be used for illness, injury, or personal time; our certified sick leave bank can only be “restockedâ€￾ by putting unused PPT time into it at the rate of 42:00 hours per year; we now pay medical insurance premiums that once cost us nothing plus higher deductibles and co-pays; our retirees have NO medical coverage after age 65 except Medicare......I can go on and on but I think you get the point - everything at Delta can change and a lot of it already has changed.

A better way of addressing this issue is not to compare apples to oranges but to stress the vulnerability Delta flight attendants have without a contract and the value the Northwest contract contains. "

Thanks

It is all correct, NxNW, however, we have gotten back some duty rigs and we can "make time" on trips again. (minutes under).
The SS offset is a travesty and the lack of early retirement medical benefits leaves DL way below "industry standard" in that area (American has early retirement medical at age 55).
The PPT/sick leave is abominable, particularly in the case of a catastrophic illness. Even when you have an OJI now, the time comes out of your certified bank. Also when you use Short Term Disability (STD), it comes out of your certified bank even though DL is only paying you 50% of your salary and Aetna or the state (such as CA) is paying you the other half.
I try to be a positve person at work (as well as have a sense of humor) but these are some of the reasons why I support a CBA. We are all getting older and our bodies aren't behaving the way they did when we were young F/A's. We need to protect ourselves.

 

[BABABOOY]

I think you're getting the Single Operating CERTIFICATE (by the FAA) and the Single Carrier DETERMINATION (by the NMB) confused. Only the Single Carrier DETERMINATION--generally believed to be less stringent-- has to be fulfilled in order for the NMB to clear the way for another election. (I think points 1-7 as pointed out by Jim and NxNW will mostly be fulfilled by this coming Spring.) The pilots have already petitioned the NMB to declare a Single Carrier DETERMINATION and Delta has pushed that as well.

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I was getting the two confused.
I guess the only Union that hasn't petitioned the NMB to declare is the AFA..
I believe with the AFA stalling, will play right into Delta's hands.