AE/Envoy Pilots Reject AIP

[AirwAr]

the chances are really high that AE pilots will have no problem finding employment with mainline or at least national carriers. Virtually every large jet carrier is hiring at heavy levels.

The chances that these aircraft can be moved to another carrier and properly staffed is very low if AE pilots decide they don't want to fly at the rates that AAG is willing to pay.

AE (MQ) provides roughly 3/4 of all of AA's regional feed and is roughly equal in size to US' entire regional operation.

 
So maybe in this specific situation...everything will work out for AE pilots.  But I'm wondering about the longer term strategy.  I know that within the Oneworld Alliance, the pilot's groups get together.  And I imagine they work together to TRY to ensure that one company doesn't cannibalize another's capacity.  If that's the case, it would make sense to me that the unions flying for AE should work together.
 
I understand that is AA's strategy...to split up the work and pit one pilot group against another with a race to the bottom for compensation...but does it have to be that way?

 

[RJcasualty]

the chances are really high that AE pilots will have no problem finding employment with mainline or at least national carriers. Virtually every large jet carrier is hiring at heavy levels.

The chances that these aircraft can be moved to another carrier and properly staffed is very low if AE pilots decide they don't want to fly at the rates that AAG is willing to pay.

AE (MQ) provides roughly 3/4 of all of AA's regional feed and is roughly equal in size to US' entire regional operation.

That is precisely the argument at hand . Management feels they will have no problem outsourcing the work. AE pilots beg to differ. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

So maybe in this specific situation...everything will work out for AE pilots.  But I'm wondering about the longer term strategy.  I know that within the Oneworld Alliance, the pilot's groups get together.  And I imagine they work together to TRY to ensure that one company doesn't cannibalize another's capacity.  If that's the case, it would make sense to me that the unions flying for AE should work together.
 
I understand that is AA's strategy...to split up the work and pit one pilot group against another with a race to the bottom for compensation...but does it have to be that way?

 
 as noted, general industry-wide labor action is not possible so labor groups at various airlines are pitted against each other.

Many mainline pilots who are represented by ALPA also believe there is a conflict of interest.

That may or may not be but the big difference that AE pilots have at their disposal is that the pilot shortage is likely to accelerate to such a degree that many regional airlines' futures are in jeopardy regardless of what AE does.

The real issue comes down to whether AE pilots want to burn the furniture trying to keep warm or just recognize that they will be given the opportunity to fly at good rates at other airlines and begin heading for the exits while still being paid decent wages.

It is not likely that AA will spend more money to pay AE pilots more but whether AA can find the regional feed they need to keep their network running is not a concern of AE pilots. And even execs at other regionals have said the tipping point has already been reached and even a relaxation of the pilot age requirements now is not likely to change the future of the regional jet industry.

Pilot salaries will go up which further dictates that large RJs are necessary in order to make the economics of regional carrier flying work. Those network carriers who have moved most aggressively to replace regional carrier flying or upgrade will be in the best position - and they also will be the ones where many RJ pilots might have the best chance of career movement.

That is precisely the argument at hand . Management feels they will have no problem outsourcing the work. AE pilots beg to differ.

it is pure economics. as noted, I tend to think the economics are on the side of AE pilots.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

the chances are really high that AE pilots will have no problem finding employment with mainline or at least national carriers. Virtually every large jet carrier is hiring at heavy levels.

The chances that these aircraft can be moved to another carrier and properly staffed is very low if AE pilots decide they don't want to fly at the rates that AAG is willing to pay.

AE (MQ) provides roughly 3/4 of all of AA's regional feed and is roughly equal in size to US' entire regional operation.

I won't argue whether you're right or wrong because I don't know the current pilot (regional & mainline) job market conditions.  However, if there allegedly are so many better jobs out there for AE pilots, one has to ask why they aren't leaving for the greener pastures?  The only conclusion that I can come up with is that in reality the jobs really aren't there.  Oh, there may be the 1 or 2 that 'upgrade' from a RJ to a 'large jet' carrier, but certainly not the thousands to employ the AE pilots.  Advantage:  management.
 
The second statement may or may not be true.  It seems to me that there is always a regional willing to set a new (low) standard.  Whether the bottom has been reached isn't known yet.  However, there is no disadvantage to AAG from trying to reach this new low.

 

[AirwAr]

Regional pilots "working together" would imply a regional general strike--- European style--- which is impossible under Federal labor law. 

 
I wasn't thinking of a regional general strike.  I was thinking along the lines of the basic idea of not flying "struck" work.  So for example, if the Envoy pilot's group goes on strike...would the Republic pilot group be allowed to refuse to fly Envoy's routes?  
 
IIRC, AA pilots have refused to fly struck work.
 

 

AE pilots as free agents would start at the bottom of another carriers seniority list and pay scale. 

 

In general, if management employees leave an airline for another airline, they typically don't start at the bottom of the pay scale at the new company.  It would seem that unions could allow for the same thing.  When there's a pilot shortage...that could really open up opportunities for pilots as a whole.
 
I know this is a complicated subject...but if unions across companies don't find a way to work together (I understand not strike together)...management will just keep fragmenting and fragmenting your services until no one actually works for an airline except the management team. 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

AE regional pilots are represented by ALPA. ALPA also has representation at some mainline carriers.

I've always wondered why regional / AE pilots remain to be represented by ALPA?  Has it not dawned on them yet that when push comes to shove, ALPA will protect mainline and screw the regionals?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Comair got disassembled because DL wasn't going to put its future at risk again. DL did pay a price for the labor problems at Comair.

 

Forgive me for digressing onto DL, but exactly what price did DL pay for dismantling Comair?  I certainly don't see any negative consequences that DL has suffered as a result - at least not in the long term.  Short term (weeks/months) maybe some negativity, but that certainly seemed like a minor price to pay for the long term benefits / advantages that DL gained.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

 
I was thinking of a regional general strike.  I was thinking along the lines of the basic idea of not flying "struck" work.  So for example, if the Envoy pilot's group goes on strike...would the Republic pilot group be allowed to refuse to fly Envoy's routes?  
 

If I'm not mistaken, the last major strike at an airline in the United States was AMFA at NWA.  Do you not remember what happened there?  I don't think you're going to see any altruism if AE goes on strike.  And besides, look at how wonderfully general strikes have worked for Europe.  That's certainly not a place to be looking for an example from.

 

[AirwAr]

I won't argue whether you're right or wrong because I don't know the current pilot (regional & mainline) job market conditions.  However, if there allegedly are so many better jobs out there for AE pilots, one has to ask why they aren't leaving for the greener pastures?  The only conclusion that I can come up with is that in reality the jobs really aren't there.  Oh, there may be the 1 or 2 that 'upgrade' from a RJ to a 'large jet' carrier, but certainly not the thousands to employ the AE pilots.  Advantage:  management.
 
The second statement may or may not be true.  It seems to me that there is always a regional willing to set a new (low) standard.  Whether the bottom has been reached isn't known yet.  However, there is no disadvantage to AAG from trying to reach this new low.

 
Exactly.  And as stated by RJ, when a pilot leaves for another airline, they start at the bottom of seniority and pay scale.
 
I remember reading years ago...I believe it was a trucker's union...that they basically had an industry wide seniority list.  If one company was laying off while another was hiring...the hiring company had to higher off the top of that list and paid at a rate comparable to his peers at the new company.
 
I don't know if it would be necessary to have an industry wide seniority list..but it seems there's something that could be done to ensure if pilots leave one airline for another...that they're not put at such a huge disadvantage in terms of pay as compared to their peers.

 

[AirwAr]

If I'm not mistaken, the last major strike at an airline in the United States was AMFA at NWA.  Do you not remember what happened there?  I don't think you're going to see any altruism if AE goes on strike.  And besides, look at how wonderfully general strikes have worked for Europe.  That's certainly not a place to be looking for an example from.

Right...I miss spoke.  I meant to say, "I wasn't thinking of a general strike"   

 

[Kev3188]

Exactly.  And as stated by RJ, when a pilot leaves for another airline, they start at the bottom of seniority and pay scale.
 
I remember reading years ago...I believe it was a trucker's union...that they basically had an industry wide seniority list.  If one company was laying off while another was hiring...the hiring company had to higher off the top of that list and paid at a rate comparable to his peers at the new company.

Coming in at a journeyman rate happens a lot in the Trades. It also occurs to an extent within the healthcare industry.

Preferential hiring used to exist (at least in theory, anyway) in aviation, but outside of flow through agreements, I'm not sure it does anymore?

 

[RJcasualty]

Coming in at a journeyman rate happens a lot in the Trades. It also occurs to an extent within the healthcare industry.

Preferential hiring used to exist (at least in theory, anyway) in aviation, but outside of flow through agreements, I'm not sure it does anymore?

I believe ALPA has an arrangement for "preferential" at other ALPA carriers. That said, "preferential" is at the carriers discretion. It's not out of the question that a company recruiter would arch an eyebrow at a candidate with "AE" in his resume.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I won't argue whether you're right or wrong because I don't know the current pilot (regional & mainline) job market conditions.  However, if there allegedly are so many better jobs out there for AE pilots, one has to ask why they aren't leaving for the greener pastures?  The only conclusion that I can come up with is that in reality the jobs really aren't there.  Oh, there may be the 1 or 2 that 'upgrade' from a RJ to a 'large jet' carrier, but certainly not the thousands to employ the AE pilots.  Advantage:  management.
 
The second statement may or may not be true.  It seems to me that there is always a regional willing to set a new (low) standard.  Whether the bottom has been reached isn't known yet.  However, there is no disadvantage to AAG from trying to reach this new low.

the reason why the pilot shortage got alot more acute on Jan 4, 2014 or Jan 1 depending on when the legacy carriers chose to implement it is because of FAR 117 which dramatically affects pilot rest time and scheduling practices.
Further, it was about 5 years ago (a pilot can tell me exactly what date) that pilots could fly to age 65 after years of the limit being 60. Many pilots had no choice to stay on because of pay and pension cuts with the BK airlines.

The two government imposed rules are converging at the same time that global demand for pilots is growing and many Americans are flying overseas. It may be that many of them come back but foreign airlines are paying very high salaries for expat pilots.

The lowest commercial airline salaries are for regional airline pilots in the US.

There is a huge correction about to take place and the reason why AE pilots have the upper hand that others didn't in the past is because of the shortage of pilots in the US based on the amount of hiring that will take place at the larger carriers because of 117 and the first wave of age 65 pilots that will have to retire.

The worst time for mgmt to think they can win against labor is when labor is in short supply.
 

Forgive me for digressing onto DL, but exactly what price did DL pay for dismantling Comair?  I certainly don't see any negative consequences that DL has suffered as a result - at least not in the long term.  Short term (weeks/months) maybe some negativity, but that certainly seemed like a minor price to pay for the long term benefits / advantages that DL gained.

DL wrote off its several billion dollars in investments in both Comair and ASA but kept both as wholly owned regionals for a decade or more.


When Comair pilots struck, it really hurt DL in CVG - a hub that has always been heavily dependent on RJs. The risk to AA is that one carrier still provides 75% of its regional carrier feed and labor problems there have a high potential to impact AA.
 
 

If I'm not mistaken, the last major strike at an airline in the United States was AMFA at NWA.  Do you not remember what happened there?  I don't think you're going to see any altruism if AE goes on strike.  And besides, look at how wonderfully general strikes have worked for Europe.  That's certainly not a place to be looking for an example from.

 
And many former NW mechanics say they moved on to better careers. Bob Owens has long said there is a shortage of mechanics coming to the US and many US airlines are also hiring mechanics as well.

There is a shortage of technically trained airline employees as a result of the shrinking industry and generally declining pay.
 

I believe ALPA has an arrangement for "preferential" at other ALPA carriers. That said, "preferential" is at the carriers discretion. It's not out of the question that a company recruiter would arch an eyebrow at a candidate with "AE" in his resume.

several network carriers have preferential flow agreements with their regional carriers

 

[will fix for food]

I won't argue whether you're right or wrong because I don't know the current pilot (regional & mainline) job market conditions.  However, if there allegedly are so many better jobs out there for AE pilots, one has to ask why they aren't leaving for the greener pastures?  The only conclusion that I can come up with is that in reality the jobs really aren't there.  Oh, there may be the 1 or 2 that 'upgrade' from a RJ to a 'large jet' carrier, but certainly not the thousands to employ the AE pilots.  Advantage:  management.
 
The second statement may or may not be true.  It seems to me that there is always a regional willing to set a new (low) standard.  Whether the bottom has been reached isn't known yet.  However, there is no disadvantage to AAG from trying to reach this new low.

Eagle pilots are leaving at a rate of 50/month and that number will be accelerating. I was told that planes are sitting for lack of crews. I don't know if that is the reason but I do know that we have so many A1 spares that we are running out of parking spots.

The disadvantage to AAG is that the airline with the worst pay will be the next one to shutdown. When Eagle shuts down for lack of pilots AAG will have to go to another regional to pick it up or bring it inhouse. Either option is going to cost more.

Keep in mind that the pilots bankruptcy contract included a provision to index their pay to the average of the two cheapest regionals out there. Do you think when Eagle shuts down and they have to go to Skywest and bid against United for the lift they will get it that cheap?

As a shareholder I'm pretty pissed they are taking this route. As a mechanic who's airlines flying might be taken over by Skywest I'm not all that upset. If they take over our hangar I am sure they will hire most of us and we won't even have to move our tool boxes. Did I mention that Skywest pays 8/hour more than Eagle?

 

[WorldTraveler]

the problem is that every regional is struggling to keep their own commitments to their legacy players and some of the legacies have requirements that their regional partners reliably operate all of their schedule or they will lose the large RJ flying. Many of the large RJs themselves are owned by the legacy and not the regional carrier as was done in the past - so the operational control is shifting back to the legacy carriers.

the chances that AA can dismantle what is left of AE and ship off the parts to another regional operator is very slim.

Supposedly the APA is also rapidly trying to convince AA to let AA pilots fly the Ejets but it is doubtful that will really solve the problem or that AA will agree to it. The same number of pilots are going to be needed to fly the proposed fleet. The only solution is to rapidly start training new pilots which pay raises will help incentivize or reduce overall RJ based schedules. AA's BK plan is to dramatically increase regional jet flying with the reduction in small RJs being offset by a much larger amount of large RJ flying.